Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

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CAS_117
Posts: 1600
Joined: 2007-03-26 18:01

Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by CAS_117 »

EDIT: Wait, is it because IRL choppers have radars that detect enemies before the heli is in range of their weapons?
Irl AA has a bigger engagement range than tanks, so chopper tactics require avoiding those, whereas in PR tanks kill choppers often, so the best way to avoid them is going high. For that matter choppers double the firing range of most tanks, so they would see them first.

Edit:
Hunt3r wrote:Speaking of which, if the Apache lock-on system was implemented and it got Longbow Hellfire IIs, AA tanks and armored vehicles in general would have no chance. Stay behind cover, shoot, missile goes above cover and flies right into the target. You never even see it coming.
Pretty much.
StuTika
Posts: 255
Joined: 2008-11-30 16:36

Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by StuTika »

CAS_117 wrote:For that matter choppers double the firing range of most tanks, so they would see them first.

Thought so.
Hunt3r wrote:Speaking of which, if the Apache lock-on system was implemented and it got Longbow Hellfire IIs, AA tanks and armored vehicles in general would have no chance. Stay behind cover, shoot, missile goes above cover and flies right into the target. You never even see it coming.

Is that top-attack mode? So the missile flies up after launch, goes above the cover behind which the heli is hiding and sees the target, locks on and destroys it?

That sounds awesome! (And possible for BF2 - bombs already lock in flight and CA has top-attack missiles...)

Stu.
Nemus
Posts: 178
Joined: 2009-04-07 13:07

Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by Nemus »

Hunt3r wrote:Speaking of which, if the Apache lock-on system was implemented and it got Longbow Hellfire IIs, AA tanks and armored vehicles in general would have no chance. Stay behind cover, shoot, missile goes above cover and flies right into the target. You never even see it coming.
True.
That's why I suggested to keep the missiles DLZ into view distance.
A LOAL (lock after launch) is a good tactic if you know that an enemy exists where you shoot. And most important ONLY enemy. Since we dont have a radar in game how you will know where is the enemy? And a friendly tank is not nearby?
Answer: you must see them.
But then they will see you too. And if you are not lucky to kill the AA with your blind shot your exit from the hot zone will be very hard since in BF2 engine the ground is not a very good stealh factor for the helicopters.
Hunt3r
Posts: 1573
Joined: 2009-04-24 22:09

Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by Hunt3r »

Yep.

AiX mod has an.. interesting lock on.

You shoot, it homes to the closest vehicle/AA emplacement, friendly or not. Makes for interesting times.

Something on topic: So basically, my request/suggestion would be that the devs try and get the time it takes to properly lock on and shoot a Hellfire into enemy armor to mirror real life. Whether through the current lasing system or a lock on system.
Last edited by Hunt3r on 2009-09-07 00:55, edited 1 time in total.
angellfall
Posts: 134
Joined: 2009-06-23 10:53

Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by angellfall »

Well if u look gameplay of PR its not realistic at all... Its just simple its not possible due scale of maps there is... IRL apache can detect a tank from much further than just map area in PR if u get what i mean.. Anyway realism would mean that apache could just hover above US mainbase in any map of PR and just shoot everything what moves from there whitout even moving around... Anyway if u look gameplay, locking system of somekind would have great improvement to gameplay and actual use of attack helicopters.

Lets say we would have samekind of targetting system for attackheli gunners than we have in CA with tanks this would really help keeping heli safe from those APC's and tanks since abviously you could move faster. Anyway this would not make AA's useless since even like this AA's would spot helis faster than helis can spot AA's so AA would still be superior to helicopters as it should be.

After that ppl will complain about "where do we need lazer targetting then if helis can lock on targets so easily anyway.." answer is lazers. We could have LOAL missiles to be shot even if u would not see target directly from range, like u can drop bombs from airplanes whitout actually seeing or locking to lazer target.. Anyway making missile to lock nearest LAZE would add some randomnes to game since there can be enemy lazin ur own guys also so pilot need to make choice if he wants to fly in and risk to get locked by aa and or prolly get visual to target or blind shoot and possibly kill own guys...


p.s
EDIT: Wait, is it because IRL choppers have radars that detect enemies before the heli is in range of their weapons?
Not all of them but its not like those helis are alone in battlefield... Ofc there there are these super imba apache longbows they can do all alone or how u would say it anyawy it will require heli to fly higher than just above ground level.. And yes if used correctly attack helis kinda destroy everything what they come against in IRL they just spot stuff faster than you can spot heli or even try at aiming it with something...


Sorry for those million typos...
Last edited by angellfall on 2009-09-07 11:25, edited 2 times in total.
Sidewinder Zulu
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Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by Sidewinder Zulu »

Hunt3r wrote:Speaking of which, if the Apache lock-on system was implemented and it got Longbow Hellfire IIs, AA tanks and armored vehicles in general would have no chance. Stay behind cover, shoot, missile goes above cover and flies right into the target. You never even see it coming.
Exactly.
That's how the Longbow system works, and it's needless to say quite effective.

Tanks and armor should be scared of attack helicopters.
Just the same way helicopters should be afraid of AA, and AA afraid of tanks.

But if an attack chopper and a tank or APC both spot eachother at the same time, the helicopter should always get the kill.
Spuz36
Posts: 533
Joined: 2007-08-11 11:52

Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by Spuz36 »

For the .85 patch, I was not worried about Att Chopper attacks. You had like a 6 second delay between missile fire. Most gunners could not hit on the run and had to have the pilot steady. A Tank or APC could easily spot the hovering chopper before the missile is fired. Now (in .86) with no delay, the gunner can spam those 8 hellfires on you in a second. Accuracy is no longer needed. So in a way it is better now that fear is going back to the attack choppers favor. Speaking of .87 does bring in the 1.5 patch AA updates and it is back to AA favor.
Hunt3r
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Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by Hunt3r »

Spuz36 wrote:For the .85 patch, I was not worried about Att Chopper attacks. You had like a 6 second delay between missile fire. Most gunners could not hit on the run and had to have the pilot steady. A Tank or APC could easily spot the hovering chopper before the missile is fired. Now (in .86) with no delay, the gunner can spam those 8 hellfires on you in a second. Accuracy is no longer needed. So in a way it is better now that fear is going back to the attack choppers favor. Speaking of .87 does bring in the 1.5 patch AA updates and it is back to AA favor.
Which I feel is still ridiculous.

I find that the entire laser system could be fixed by having the laser be a realistic speed. Then you'd just have to be dead on while you click, then you'd get lock and fire.


I do wonder what the "IRL" way works though. Is it the same, where you lase, which can happen on the move, and then fire on lock?
Dev1200
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Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by Dev1200 »

As long as it takes longer to lock on then it takes to lock onto a lase, then yes. Otherwise lases wouldn't be worth putting down.


As someone else said, the Combined Arms team has made something similar for tanks.

It would be kickass to see it added into PR, attack helicopters need some lovin in PR. Especially the cobra.. it's only in 1 map, and is terrible on that map at that D=
Cp
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Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by Cp »

Hunt3r wrote:Which I feel is still ridiculous.

I find that the entire laser system could be fixed by having the laser be a realistic speed. Then you'd just have to be dead on while you click, then you'd get lock and fire.


I do wonder what the "IRL" way works though. Is it the same, where you lase, which can happen on the move, and then fire on lock?
If the apache carries hellfires with laser seekers (for example the hellfire K) then yes, you point your camera and laser towards a target, the camera locks on to the contrast and follows the target, the laser is activated and the hellfire is launched, then all you have to do is make sure the laser+camera can see the target until the missile hits.

If the apache carries hellfires with a active radar seeker like the hellfire L, then you find your target with the longbow radar, send the info about where it is and what the target looks like to the missile (done automatically) and then you fire. The missile will find its way to the target by itself and the chopper is free to do whatever it wants. thus it can theoretically have 16 hellfires flying to different targets at the same time.


The Apache in PR carries laser guided hellfires (You can easily tell the diffrence by looking at the nose of the missile, the laser guided hellfires have a transparent nose and what looks like a camera behind the glass (that "camera" is the semi-active laser seeker) the radar guided ones don't have glass on the front)
which means its the first of the two explanations that would apply to PR, infact what we have in PR today isn't far from what it is in reality with one big exception, we can't track targets by locking on to the contrast of the target.

even with the ability to lock on to contrast, we'd still have a very watered down apache.
Image
Hunt3r
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Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by Hunt3r »

Cp wrote:If the apache carries hellfires with laser seekers (for example the hellfire K) then yes, you point your camera and laser towards a target, the camera locks on to the contrast and follows the target, the laser is activated and the hellfire is launched, then all you have to do is make sure the laser+camera can see the target until the missile hits.

If the apache carries hellfires with a active radar seeker like the hellfire L, then you find your target with the longbow radar, send the info about where it is and what the target looks like to the missile (done automatically) and then you fire. The missile will find its way to the target by itself and the chopper is free to do whatever it wants. thus it can theoretically have 16 hellfires flying to different targets at the same time.


The Apache in PR carries laser guided hellfires (You can easily tell the diffrence by looking at the nose of the missile, the laser guided hellfires have a transparent nose and what looks like a camera behind the glass (that "camera" is the semi-active laser seeker) the radar guided ones don't have glass on the front)
which means its the first of the two explanations that would apply to PR, infact what we have in PR today isn't far from what it is in reality with one big exception, we can't track targets by locking on to the contrast of the target.

even with the ability to lock on to contrast, we'd still have a very watered down apache.
Then the entire lazing business is... stupid, to be honest. Give us FLIR, and make us manually establish a target (That black tank shape in your vision), then you can instantly fire and the entire lazing business is done away with and it's at least semi-realistic.

But you have to keep the lock the entire time you're doing this, or else it can't track the target and the missile will just fly straight until it's out of fuel or hits something. But this is only for seeing the target. The "spam at markers" should still be done though.

So this is just to add a mode to have a "designate target, insta-lock, fire, keep lock until it hits, or you might miss"

And FLIR. FLIR is what's needed to make this all happen, or else it just doesn't make sense. Heck, if the tank could find something where it thermally blends in with the background, you'd introduce a new tactic. Breaking lock could also be achieved by deploying smoke.

On maps that are AA and armor-heavy, the Apache (If it indeed IS on the map) could get the Longbow radar and Longbow Hellfires. Difference is just that the threats can already be seen within your VD, you can launch at targets in your VD behind terrain, but you can't fire more then one at a time and you have to keep lock to fire behind terrain. If you have line of sight then you don't have to keep lock and you can fire one as soon as you acquire a target.

AA should be dispatched by HAT or armor. Which would make the Apache stick with armor or infantry. They cover each other. And the attack chopper in INS would be useful because it has FLIR. An Apache covering infantry as they clear a village for caches would work well. (This is only for maps with attack choppers already in them.)

FLIR in CA (Possibly port this to PR?): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RkkRQ3EANY
Last edited by Hunt3r on 2009-09-08 04:54, edited 3 times in total.
Cp
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Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by Cp »

The longbow radar cant see through terrain.
Thats why its on top of the rotor mast, so that you can poke it above a hill or forest without having to reveal the entire chopper.

And the Infra red/thermal vision in CA is just the normal black and white picture but with inverted brightness,
it doesn't actually see heat.
Still, It looks pretty and I wouldn't mind having it in PR :)
Image
Hunt3r
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Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by Hunt3r »

Cp wrote:The longbow radar cant see through terrain.
Thats why its on top of the rotor mast, so that you can poke it above a hill or forest without having to reveal the entire chopper.

And the Infra red/thermal vision in CA is just the normal black and white picture but with inverted brightness,
it doesn't actually see heat.
Still, It looks pretty and I wouldn't mind having it in PR :)
On the first point, I see.

Second point, it'd still make the tanks stand out from the background, and that's really what it's supposed to do.

Well then maybe the Longbow couldn't shoot behind terrain, but within a certain range BVR, maybe 500 meters beyond the VD, if it was a straight shot (no terrain interfering), then it could see it and engage maybe 100 meters beyond the VD.

Insta lock lock and require lock the entire shot, and possibly LOAL capability would be thuper.

Launch over terrain, quickly hover up and lock on tank and it's history. You might even be able to hit the top that way.
Last edited by Hunt3r on 2009-09-10 00:46, edited 2 times in total.
Hunt3r
Posts: 1573
Joined: 2009-04-24 22:09

Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by Hunt3r »

Since it's been a day, I figured I should bump this.

As a final question, are the devs considering this, and if they have, whether they think it would destroy PR's gameplay and balance.

If the devs don't think PR should have the attack choppers get this, then could a mod kindly lock this and add it to the "***" thread?
Hunt3r
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Joined: 2009-04-24 22:09

Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by Hunt3r »

Colonelcool125 wrote:While admitteldy it's realistic for choppers to be able to do things amazing with their missiles, it's no fun to be on the receiving end constantly and have no chance of survival.
Deploying a smoke bomb would automatically break the lock, and I suppose if the lock is broken, it will fly up and away, since there is no autopilot to make it keep a specific course if lock is broken. Having a set number of smoke bombs (ala flares) that could be set off to cover your retreat.

As soon as you see the attack helo you can shoot a shell off at them. A shell flying right past them whistling should be enough to make them try and get away.
CAS_117
Posts: 1600
Joined: 2007-03-26 18:01

Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by CAS_117 »

I am not sure smoke could be made to break a lock. I haven't played vanilla in awhile so I couldn't tell you how it works.
Hunt3r
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Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by Hunt3r »

CAS_117 wrote:I am not sure smoke could be made to break a lock. I haven't played vanilla in awhile so I couldn't tell you how it works.
Well, I suppose the lock on suggestion for within visual range should be good enough unless PR is ported to BF2142 or for PR2. Just have to make it that having the target move too far from center would make it break lock.
fubar++
Posts: 248
Joined: 2007-07-08 17:04

Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by fubar++ »

Hunt3r wrote:Deploying a smoke bomb would automatically break the lock, and I suppose if the lock is broken, it will fly up and away, since there is no autopilot to make it keep a specific course if lock is broken. Having a set number of smoke bombs (ala flares) that could be set off to cover your retreat.

As soon as you see the attack helo you can shoot a shell off at them. A shell flying right past them whistling should be enough to make them try and get away.
Flares within the smoke as lock-breaker are possible and have been used in PoE mod for example. Not with the shell thought but with the deployed smoke screen.
angellfall
Posts: 134
Joined: 2009-06-23 10:53

Re: Attack Helicopters and Tanks...

Post by angellfall »

fubar++ wrote:Flares within the smoke as lock-breaker are possible and have been used in PoE mod for example. Not with the shell thought but with the deployed smoke screen.
Just what i where about to say :P So it is possible to make... I would really like hear somebody of DeV's about this.. Since this would really make some new charm in to game...
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