tweaking rally points

[Bringerof_D]

For those who do not fully understand the effects these changes will likely have on game play please read Clueless_noob's post on page 2 of this thread, he sums it up pretty well.

I've posted this before a while ago before the new rally system was put in. however I've never received any discussion on my idea since it was usually buried under other people's ideas. so here we go once more.

the current system is good in that it slows down forward advances, but really hurts the stealthy and actually tactical squads who get unlucky. if everyone dies fine and dandy, but if the squad lead dies and 2 or more members survive it sucks. it is also discouraging time consuming flanking maneuvers where a squad would try to encircle the enemy since almost any loss would require them to start over. this results in squads opting for the simpler and much less risky option of pushing the line forward from the FOBs like trench warfare. (it is not a risk if it is definitely going to happen) no one really cares for dieing in a straight rush anymore since it is quicker than anything else and spawn times have since the old days been significantly lowered.

Solutions:

- Increase spawn times again
- Remove time limit on rallies (changes and limitations to be outlined below)

increased spawn times would bring back that fear of dieing, it worked for me and many others to keep us thinking.

Rally Points:

- Require 2 squad mates within 10 meters of the placed rally to spawn<this is the main change that will make this system work
- Remove the need to "reload" a rally point to place a new one (or increase to ammo count to 2)
- No time limit
- No spawn with 2 enemies within X meters
- Bring back ammunition (?) with a limited ammunition count equivalent to 3 ammo bags (we carry those ruck sacks for a reason.)
- Only allow riflemen to spawn on rally.

this will convince people to use a rally as a rally, when people are separated after a heavy fight people can say fall back to the rally, if people are dead they can spawn on the rally but will have to wait till the squad regroups there. this will bring back complicated squad maneuvers and encourage surviving members to fall back instead of simply hiding, or fighting to the death so everyone can spawn together. It will bring up the speed of game play without sacrificing tactics and survival like the current reliance on FOBs has, while on the other hand will keep it slow enough for the victorious squad to either destroy the rally or kill the remaining squad mates.

edit: This would give people something to fall back to, as noted previously in this suggestion there's little reason to fall back after a failed assault as currently there is nothing to fall back to. This system would give players a reason to disengage and fall back and give them a predesignated location to do so.

Noted Additions by others:

- Have the amount of 6 ammo bags for the six ruck sacks (Hopefully we can figure out a way to scale the ammo bag amount to the number of Squad Members).
- Keep the current reload system for the RP itself
- Keep the RP for the purpose of ammo, after spawns have stopped
- Disallow RP's from flag radius+50m
- Add a Squad Member "Camping Cool-down" timer to your 2 SM requirement
- Add to the "CC" timer a radius X (75m?) that circumscribes the RP
- SM's have to be out side this radius "X" for a "certain time" after the 2min spawning window
- Make the "Certain time" 2min?
- Add to the radius "X" an enemy radius being something like "X+50m?" or whatever works
- How about a distinction between Ammo Points and Rally Points

^Important point: Once rally is placed a minute or more must past before spawning may begin, after a first player has spawned the spawn will be active for 1 minute and then another minute or more must past before spawning can commence once more, and the cycle continues.

[*]Setting a RP requires 4 alive squad members within X metres of SL. perhaps the allowed range for this can be rather high so they dont all have to be in the same spot rather can be within the same city block or compound so the rally can be set while the arcs can continue to be covered
[*]Spawning on a RP requires 2 alive squad members to be within X metres of RP.
[/LIST]
Result:

• SL will need to think ahead where to place a RP before engaging the enemy. If the squad has too many losses ( >2 for full squad) the SL cannot set the RP.
• RP will work in effect as a squad FB. But as living SMs need to be near RP and enemies cannot be nearby it means that the squad needs to actively disengage the enemy.
• In comparision to the current system: as the current RP only needs 1 SM next to SL to be able to be set it can be used after the squad has sustained many losses. It requires no planning.

I've said this before but there should also be a limit on how many squad members can spawn on the rally. I think a good number would be 4, or make it to where each member can only spawn once. This way it's actually a rally and not a nearly eternal spawn point. Everything else I think is absolutely great!

^perhaps based on mantura's idea, a limit on how many spawn cycles are allowed can be implemented.

[x-spades-x]

That actually seems to make sense. I like the idea. Have the option of a fallback in case of emergency.

The only bad thing I think is that some squads will just leave two 'protectors' while the others rush forward. There are ups and downs to all suggestions tho. With some tweaks this option may work.

[goguapsy]

How does this help, tactically speaking? Because as far as I understand from your suggestion, rally points will be MUCH more frequent and will punish much less a spotted flanking/stealthy squad... I like the way it is ATM. It's good enough to get new players in the squad near you, so as too regroup your squad if you are lucky enough to survive and a fellow squad member (supposing you are the SL), without making waves of infantry keep hammering an area until it falls, with no tactics employed...

[Fess|3-5|]

I approve of this idea. It rewards players to flank, instead of all rushing straight from a FOB. Everyone knows some of the most fun in this game has been from rally hunting. Trying to get in and find it before they all respawn and kill you in the open...

[MikeDude]

Dude, I love this idea. And I can really see it working man.

Epic

[LithiumFox]

wait... mike is that image a shot of "hot fuzz" ? (you know.. the movie staring the two guys from shaun of the dead?)

[Arnoldio]

Yeah this is a pretty solid suggestion. Though overrun should still be there, because if you can see peiople spawning infront of you at 25 meters, thats nothing. It would look stupid and silly as it did back then.

The rest is nice.

[Heskey]

I think over-run should be removed. I understand the concept about hostile control of an area prevents re-inforcements; but 90% of the time there is no 'control' of the area, it's just a number of enemies ambling nearby going from point A to point B.

I also like the idea of giving the rally a light-arms ammo deposit to encourage people falling back to a rally point.

Don't think you should be able to request kits or rearm specialist weapons from it though (HATs, AAs, LATs, Mines, C4 etc)

[Lemon]

wait... mike is that image a shot of "hot fuzz" ? (you know.. the movie staring the two guys from shaun of the dead?)

It is indeed! Best movie!

The suggestion's good! Least remove the need to reload the RP. IMO it should still disapear after a few seconds though...

[hotfranc]

I think the idea is great but maybe add a spawn limit of (don't know it yet) because if we don't do that firebases will not useful anymore.

Thanks

[Heskey]

I think rather that looking at rally points, to avoid creating an inbalance, we need to review the entire spawn/revive system to ensure RPs, Medics, flags, FOBs, and rally points all have their uses on the field.

[Bringerof_D]

How does this help, tactically speaking? Because as far as I understand from your suggestion, rally points will be MUCH more frequent and will punish much less a spotted flanking/stealthy squad... I like the way it is ATM. It's good enough to get new players in the squad near you, so as too regroup your squad if you are lucky enough to survive and a fellow squad member (supposing you are the SL), without making waves of infantry keep hammering an area until it falls, with no tactics employed...

it helps because a squad that gets spotted and eliminated cant spawn on their rally. tactics isnt just a means of attack but also a means of escape. if a squad has survivors and they manage to sneak away they can now fall back onto the rally to enable spawning.

as to the other concerns, yes perhaps a spawn limit might be appropriate. the "NO SPAWN" with enemies in range can be increased, 25 was just a number i pulled out as an example

@Lemon: If they kept the disappearing after a few seconds then there would be no point in making the changes i've suggested lol. IF the rally disappears than there is no rally to fall back on. it be used as it is now where squad leads just place it so everyone can spawn in, and with the ammunition i propose, a quick rearm.

[bad_nade]

I endorse this product or service.

It's not so simple as it appears to be at the first sight. If a squad wants to actually get their reinforcements, they would need to break contact to the enemy and fall back to their rally to secure the area before reinforcements arrive. And they would need to do it without being seen or followed, which, I think, makes this much more complicated than people think.

Squads would need to move together, stay together and fall back together. There would not be such human waves as there was with previous rallies, because if a squad gets wiped out, there would be no one securing the rally point area and they would not be able to spawn. And even if people kept on trying to bang their heads against the wall of bullets, they would need to fall back time to time, which sounds not only a realistic maneuver, but a wise one too. Remember that breaking contact is not so easy as it sounds. If it's done carelessly, enemy will follow them to the rally and wipe them out for good.

Some say it's ridiculous or stupid to see an enemy spawn, but from my point of view it's just one of the limitations of BF2 and the consept of video games in general. For me it's equally stupid, or should I say natural, to see cars and tanks flying because of lack of proper physics or to see jet stop in midair after explosion and fall down like a rock, because wreck models don't have any inertia. I've said this before and I will say it again: rally point is a force multiplier which allows us to have more intese battles with only 32 players per side. We cannot have 10000 players on the same server, so rallies are needed to enable the feel of a larger unit in a battle.

[Bringerof_D]

thank you (not so)Clueless noob, that pretty much sums up my idea perfectly. With my idea, for reinforcements to spawn each time you do so will require squad movement and maneuvers, both to break contact and fall back to the rally, as well as to secure the area before reinforcements can spawn in.

the whole "its unrealistic to see people spawn from a pile of bags" argument has no basis what soever since at the moment you will see people magically appear from a mound of dirt with a radio in it anyways (FOBs) and yes this is a very common sight what with the more concentrated battle zones and longer view distances.

this MIGHT also have the desired effect of encouraging teamwork between squads. If a squad needs to fall back to get reinforcements, working alone there wouldn't be enough people holding the line. This would result in the 1 or 2 guys left behind to hold be over run, or no one was left to hold the line and it is over run. Working with a friendly squad means you can ask that squad to hold the line and cover your retreat, and then when you return they can do the same.

[Freelance_Commando]

Awesome idea Bringerof D, encouraging planning AND teamwork all at the same time!

[Celestial1]

It's not so simple as it appears to be at the first sight. If a squad wants to actually get their reinforcements, they would need to break contact to the enemy and fall back to their rally to secure the area before reinforcements arrive. And they would need to do it without being seen or followed, which, I think, makes this much more complicated than people think.

I see no difference here from the current system beside the fact that the rally is indefinite until overrun which means that dying isn't such a big deal as long as your squad is competent enough to retreat back to it.

You can retreat and place a rally now. This system just means that the rally stays in the same place and is indefinite, not encouraging staying alive all that much as it is.

[Bringerof_D]

I see no difference here from the current system beside the fact that the rally is indefinite until overrun which means that dying isn't such a big deal as long as your squad is competent enough to retreat back to it.

You can retreat and place a rally now. This system just means that the rally stays in the same place and is indefinite, not encouraging staying alive all that much as it is.

yes celestial, for the average gamer, this will likely make them die more. Retreating isnt something most gamers have to deal with. but in time as they adapt this may well work to everyone's advantage.

the logic isnt to stop them from dieing more, just like spawn times theres nothing to stop a person from dieing. it simply encourages him to try and live a little longer.

[Freelance_Commando]

You can retreat and place a rally now. This system just means that the rally stays in the same place and is indefinite, not encouraging staying alive all that much as it is.

Of coarse that is if your squad leader is still alive, otherwise you might as well keep going until you are killed as by then you will be either too engrosed in combat or too far from a FB to even bother to regroup.

[Sadist_Cain]

it's just the same as the rally system before, sooner or later you have a blue noob trickle coming from the rally.
Bad idea, it's much better to keep the SL/Medic/Both alive and if need be lay down an emergency fallback in the form of your temp rally.

An extra one would be nice though

[bad_nade]

it's just the same as the rally system before, sooner or later you have a blue noob trickle coming from the rally.

In previous system, rally was spawnable even if the whole squad, or most of it, were dead. In this suggestion it's not.

In previous system, rally was spawnable even if there was no squad members nearby. In this suggestion it's not.

So there cannot be blue noob trickle, because they cannot spawn at the first place if they fail to fall back and secure the rally area.

There can be blue noob squad coming from the rally and there can be three or four blue noobs desperately heading back to the rally to group up with the enforcements, but never a one way flow.

And by the way, it's funny how no one see the blue noob trickle coming from a FOB as a problem.