Sniper Kit Discussion - Removal?

[-.-Maverick-.-]

Those things can easily be achieved with regular infantry.

Not really, the sniper can do that without getting discovered, that's the point.

[Smegburt_funkledink]

We can't mod players, but we can take away their stupid annoying toys that they like to abuse.

Just thought I'd re-quote that to reiterate a point.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/M ... n024-1.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/M ... een025.jpg

Maybe we should remove the knife too as certain stupid annoying players abuse them...

Brummy is just being emo cause he's got a **** aim.

[Brummy]

Not really, the sniper can do that without getting discovered, that's the point.

Uhh, unless the squad is not very bright then it should be able to take cover from a sniper after the first shot and then slowly work towards detecting his location.

[Kaurava]

I'm all for removing it.
Not much purpose, and very limited teamplay value.

Then again, it might be a player problem. But honestly, only once did I ever see a sniper kit being used well, and the guy was pinning us down on Silent Eagle. A SAW could've done the same, minus the stealth, and being stealthy usually means not joining fights and not doing much (even lasing: an officer lasing to clear a path for his squad has more purpose than a sniper lasing a lone APC in some random place on the map).

[-.-Maverick-.-]

Uhh, unless the squad is not very bright then it should be able to take cover from a sniper after the first shot and then slowly work towards detecting his location.

Most of the time, they take cover, pop smoke and send their medic out. If the sniper is bright and he realizes that they're on to him, he will relocate to a backup position which he should always have.

[BlackwaterSaxon]

Those things can easily be achieved with regular infantry.

That is why Snipers are a "force multiplier", of course these things can be done with an infantry squad, but the ability to do with two what can be achieved with six can be incredibly useful.

Then again, the sniper kit does attract the wrong sort of people, I'm not really sure what the community can do in order to make people use the sniper for what it was intended for, if the only option is to remove the sniper altogether, then something is obviously wrong. Removing assets from the game in order to keep the "vets" happy will simply lead to other assets being removed, until we're running around a 10km map armed with only a standard issue rifle.

Keep the sniper kit, but put greater restrictions on it.

[-=TB=-Tobakfromcuba]

sniper is an element that fits to the game. im not using the kit except when i take it from the enemy; but theres definetly a point in keeping it in the game exactly as it is right now, regarding to ammo, availibilty, accuracy and settledown-time

[Psyrus]

sniper is an element that fits to the game. im not using the kit except when i take it from the enemy; but theres definetly a point in keeping it in the game exactly as it is right now, regarding to ammo, availibilty, accuracy and settledown-time

You talk about this point... but what is it?

[mat552]

We can't mod players, but we can take away their stupid annoying toys that they like to abuse.

Pfft, there goes the CE kit, the HAT kit, the Grenade Trap for INS, all airborne vehicles, tanks, SAWs certainly fall into that definition. It's far rarer to see APCs used as intended, those should probably be removed too. Oh man, grappling hooks are also annoying toys people like to abuse.

Just because it's rare to see a kit used as intended doesn't mean it's worth removin-Oh, oh! TOWs! Sniping single infantry with a rocket is stupid AND annoying, and it's unrealistic to use 10 rockets to maybe kill 10 soldiers! Gotta get rid of those.

Like I was saying. We can abuse anything, don't limit those of us who enjoy playing a certain way because you don't think it's fun or useful.

[Psyrus]

Like I was saying. We can abuse anything, don't limit those of us who enjoy playing a certain way because you don't think it's fun or useful.

Yeah who cares if 2 guys from each team get to lonewolf and get their l33t snip0r rocks off, and then go boast in a thread or two about their 'longest confirmed kill'. Also lets bring back my spec ops kit so I can do l33t incursions into the enemy base and C4 everything and shoot them with mah awesome silenced pistol.

I love the justification to not remove it is that other kits can be abused... the relative percentage of times that I've seen a sniper be useless contrasted against all other kits combined would probably still favour the sniper for uselessness. And I mean useless in the sense that the few times that they have been useful aka lasing and passing on intel... a squad leader kit could've done the exact same thing, without the epeen extension.

[BlackwaterSaxon]

Yeah who cares if 2 guys from each team get to lonewolf and get their l33t snip0r rocks off, and then go boast in a thread or two about their 'longest confirmed kill'. Also lets bring back my spec ops kit so I can do l33t incursions into the enemy base and C4 everything and shoot them with mah awesome silenced pistol.

I love the justification to not remove it is that other kits can be abused... the relative percentage of times that I've seen a sniper be useless contrasted against all other kits combined would probably still favour the sniper for uselessness. And I mean useless in the sense that the few times that they have been useful aka lasing and passing on intel... a squad leader kit could've done the exact same thing, without the epeen extension.

Once again this is a player side problem, don't get rid of kits just because people cannot or will not use them properly.

[Brummy]

Yes, it's a problem with players.

• Instant-kill headshots were removed; why? Because players aimed for heads instead of centre masses.
• 1 minute and later 2 minute timer was added after revives; why? Because players abused the medic system.
• Civilians were first given longer spawn times and then reverted; why? Because players abused the ROE system.
• Pistols were removed from the pilot kits; why? Because players abused them and paradropped into enemy territory with pilot kits.
• Before the 5 minute revive timer, the spawn screen was removed when dead; why? Because player abused this system by obtaining new kits upon revive.
• Need I go on?

Blaming players is such a weak argument; especially when 90% or even more of the snipers are ridiculously useless.

[BlackwaterSaxon]

Yes, it's a problem with players.

• Instant-kill headshots were removed; why? Because players aimed for heads instead of centre masses.
• 1 minute and later 2 minute timer was added after revives; why? Because players abused the medic system.
• Civilians were first given longer spawn times and then reverted; why? Because players abused the ROE system.
• Pistols were removed from the pilot kits; why? Because players abused them and paradropped into enemy territory with pilot kits.
• Need I go on?

Blaming players is such a weak argument; especially when 90% or even more of the snipers are ridiculously useless.

All those points you made have a significant impact on gameplay and caused problems on all servers, a retard with a sniper rifle does not have the same impact.

I agree that more often than not, you will find that a sniper is completely useless, then again, 90% of people with HAT kits are useless or "abuse" them, also, APC crews usually forget the PC in APC, preferring to use their l337 guns for raping infantry instead of transporting infantry like they are intended for, should APCs be removed as well?

Get yourself in a game with a sniper who knows what he is doing and they can be quite useful, you just need to find one first.

[Rudd]

1 minute and later 2 minute timer was added after revives; why? Because players abused the medic system.

abused is a nasty way to describe gameplay dynamics that reward unrealistic actions.

Civilians were first given longer spawn times and then reverted; why? Because players abused the ROE system.

frankly I found that the old system made me behave more realistically as blufor

Pistols were removed from the pilot kits; why? Because players abused them and paradropped into enemy territory with pilot kits.

true, however removing the parachute would have completed this task far more effectively

Before the 5 minute revive timer, the spawn screen was removed when dead; why? Because player abused this system by obtaining new kits upon revive.

I think that is another unfair observation as that wasn't anticipated

bugs do not = exploits Brum.

[Psyrus]

Yes, it's a problem with players.

• Instant-kill headshots were removed; why? Because players aimed for heads instead of centre masses.
• 1 minute and later 2 minute timer was added after revives; why? Because players abused the medic system.
• Civilians were first given longer spawn times and then reverted; why? Because players abused the ROE system.
• Pistols were removed from the pilot kits; why? Because players abused them and paradropped into enemy territory with pilot kits.
• Before the 5 minute revive timer, the spawn screen was removed when dead; why? Because player abused this system by obtaining new kits upon revive.
• Need I go on?

Blaming players is such a weak argument; especially when 90% or even more of the snipers are ridiculously useless.

Couldn't have said it better myself, although you could've added a very important one. They removed laser beam guns (added deviation) because of the way firefights were going.

[Rudd]

Couldn't have said it better myself, although you could've added a very important one. They removed laser beam guns (added deviation) because of the way firefights were going.

wanting to slow down the gameplay for realism/gameplay reasons isn't the same as changing a gameplay aspect because its being exploited.

[Brummy]

bugs do not = exploits Brum.

None of those listed were bugs.

Yes, these points were all major gameplay affecting changes, however even by just removing the sniper kit gameplay could be drastically improved.

By removing the spec-ops kit, people no longer rushed to request the spec-ops kit; people no longer made stupid infiltration spec-ops squads entering enemy lines and trying to 'sabotage' the enemy.

[BlackwaterSaxon]

wanting to slow down the gameplay for realism/gameplay reasons isn't the same as changing a gameplay aspect because its being exploited.

That and wasn't deviation always going to be a major part of the mod? Not all changes are made because of abuse, some are just the evolution of the mod.

[BlackwaterSaxon]

None of those listed were bugs.

Yes these points were all major gameplay affecting changes, however even by just removing the sniper kit gameplay could be drastically improved.

By removing the spec-ops kit, people no longer rushed to request the spec-ops kit; people no longer made stupid infiltration spec-ops squads entering enemy lines and trying to 'sabotage' the enemy.

What are Snipers doing at the moment that has a significant impact on gameplay?

[Brummy]

What are Snipers doing at the moment that has a significant impact on gameplay?

A sniper currently is like a pot of gold in-game. Everyone rushes the sniper and it's like it's a holy kit to some certain people. Sniper squads are often exposing themselves to the enemy and often they are just being useless.

Like I said, it is not a drastic gameplay change, but by removing the sniper kit you prevent unrealistic and tardy behaviour that especially occurs with the sniper kit.

abused is a nasty way to describe gameplay dynamics that reward unrealistic actions.

Alright wrong word choice.

frankly I found that the old system made me behave more realistically as blufor

Yeah, but did the civilians behave realistic? Rushing into enemy fire is not a very common doing for civilians.

true, however removing the parachute would have completed this task far more effectively

Still, the change was made due to the abuse of players.

I think that is another unfair observation as that wasn't anticipated

Still, the change was made due to the abuse of players.