MEC bombs - Tasteless idea

[EyesOnly]

I would vote to remove the entire MEC army, as it isn't real (Project REALity)

[Expendable Grunt]

No, don't do that, I'm trying to work on a back story!

The MEC gives the devs a PERFECT conventional force to experiment on!

[jerkzilla]

From my personal point of view, the MEC is a cheap solution for vBF2 to incorporate modern hardware, mostly of Russian origin, and have a Middle East theater of war.
I vote for keeping it in PR because, as Expendable Grunt said, it's the perfect conventional force to experiment on.
What I would like to know is if there are any plans to completely swap their original arsenal with something of western origin?

[Outlawz7]

They got G3's already?

[The Great Danton]

Can we get back on topic here? The thread was about implementing suicide bombs.

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

MEC is a regular army and would not have suicide units.
Insurgents have suicide cars and trucks to attack vehicles.
Strap on bombs are no realistic because there are no women and children to kill with them as happens in real life.

[MajorPwnag3]

MEC is a regular army and would not have suicide units.
Insurgents have suicide cars and trucks to attack vehicles.
Strap on bombs are no realistic because there are no women and children to kill with them as happens in real life.

As harsh as that sounds, he's right. Car bombs and IEDs are often used against troops because they can be made to penetrate thick armor. Vest bombs are very good at killing large groups of people, but, unless there are troops on foot and unsupported by vehicles, they don't work well against organized armies. If we do implement this in the insurgent army, the bomber should have a green shirt and look like a civilian, but have different colored pants or something. That way, you can tell the difference, but it's hard at a glance.

[Bonsai]

Regular army or not...they would use it.
I think i even heard about suicide commandos in different regular middle east armies in RL before?

But if you implement a new class for this it will be exploited...no question.
The MEDI-team of the official tournament uses suicide tactics in every battle. Successfully. With the current kits and cars.

[TheTank]

@requiem:
The MEC IS a terrorist organization. Defined as such by the US. That changed when the US needed them again, seeing as they are anti-Iran-Government.

@Guerra:
In WW2 the Japs AND the Germans used suicide attacks, though latter mostly in the form of planes against bombers. Not to mention some of the would-be Hitler assassins.

@Topic:
Why not go all out and have a bunch of civilians running around that both sides can cut down?
Both sides slaughter civilians, it is simply a matter of selective view and denial how the truth is handled.
Just because they deny it does not mean it does not happen. And to be sure they threaten and kill possible witnesses, such as reporters.

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

There is no selective view in the difference between a bomb that is strapped to a person who walks into a crowd of people on a high holy day and detonates, it is not a matter of how the media handles it.
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast ... index.html
http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=441
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/ ... nirq.main/


If you mean the MEC to be Iran, they sponsor terrorism but aren't classified as terrorists themselves.

But since MEC is a fictional coalition that doesn't hold.

It is a shame the world doesn't follow schoolyard rules of fairness but then again, you can vote for someone with a world view as naive as that if you like, in the primaries at least.



The Japanese used suicide attacks in desperation at the end of the war and they did it against military targets. They were, by media accounts, particularly brutal toward civilians in some cases ( Nanking; http://www.tribo.org/nanking/) but they did not randomly kill civilians as part of their basic strategy.

I have never heard of NAZI suicide attacks on any organized scale, but I'm always willing to learn something new.

Any links to that ?

Not that we really want to mirror the tactics of NAZI Germany because I don't remember any suicide bombers in the first world war, or the Franco-Prussian war.



A man who walks into a nightclub and kills himself as he murders others is not equivalent to civilian casualties in a war zone although there might be a connection to people who place high value military targets in residential areas SOLELY for the purpose of killing their own civilians for propaganda value.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/asi ... efault.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/1 ... li.blasts/
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/ ... 20,00.html
http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArc ... eo%20Clips
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... 100172.DTL


I would like to see some hippies that we could wound and watch them bleed out while dropping med packs just out of their reach and flashing them the "peace" sign.

[MajorPwnag3]

During the Battle of Berlin, the Nazis used airplanes loaded with explosives to destroy bridges around the city. They also intended to make piloted versions of V-1 rocket bombs to evade anti-air fire and hit London, but it never really materialized.
Here's a link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selbstopfer

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

Thank you.

I had heard of KG200 but I had never heard of the V1 idea.

But again, it's the NAZIs, not people whose tactics you would want to emulate and, from that article............"the commander of KG 200 together with the Armaments Minister Albert Speer visited Hitler and convinced him that suicide attacks were not a part of German warrior tradition".

In addition the concept was to destroy bridges, not fly into civilians.

So it seems with the exception of a perverted Bushido code there is only one group that considers it a " warrior tradition" to kill themselves while murdering civilians.

Suicide tactics will always be a part of BF/PR because you have more than one life to give but I don't think adding a dedicated suicide bomber class is a good idea.

Matter of fact, I think it sucks.

[ayjazz]

I would vote to remove the entire MEC army, as it isn't real (Project REALity)

Well, following that logic, we would have to remove the Chinese army as well, since fighting China would be very unlikely, with the way the world's economy is set up and what not. Even though the mod's name is Project Reality, I think that we should be focusing on making fighting and the weapons and equipment that each faction has realistic, not if such and such army should exist, or if faction A should be fighting faction B. This mod is in the future, so I think we could make anything go in that respect, which would be the MEC army, and war with China.

Back on topic. Suicide bombers would be an interesting add, however, people might find it quite noobish on having some random person walk up to you that you can't kill, and blow up in your face, even if that is what actually happens. Not to mention the emotional fallout we could have from certain players who know people who have experienced or know some one who has experienced an event.

Oh and the MEC shouldn't have suicide bombers, they are a military force, not insurgents.

[Saobh]

Thank you.

I had heard of KG200 but I had never heard of the V1 idea.

But again, it's the NAZIs, not people whose tactics you would want to emulate and, from that article............"the commander of KG 200 together with the Armaments Minister Albert Speer visited Hitler and convinced him that suicide attacks were not a part of German warrior tradition".

In addition the concept was to destroy bridges, not fly into civilians.

So it seems with the exception of a perverted Bushido code there is only one group that considers it a " warrior tradition" to kill themselves while murdering civilians.

Suicide tactics will always be a part of BF/PR because you have more than one life to give but I don't think adding a dedicated suicide bomber class is a good idea.

Matter of fact, I think it sucks.

Well if you which to find a historical source of the use of scuicides for political means, this might be of interest:
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashshashin
excerpt:

The Hashshashin (also Hashishin, Hashashiyyin or Assassins) was a religious sect of Ismaili Muslims from the Nizari sub-sect. They had a militant basis which was employed in various political or religious purposes.[1] They were thought to be active from 1090 to 1272.[2] This mystic secret society was known to specialize in terrorising the crusaders with fearlessly executed, politically motivated assassinations.[3] Bernard Lewis however states that unlike the popular belief, their efforts were not primarily directed at crusades but against Muslim rulers whom they saw as impious usurpers.[4] The word "assassin" is derived from this name. Their own name for the sect was al-da'wa al-jadīda (Arabic:الدعوة الجديد&#1577 which means the new doctrine.[citation needed] They called themselves fedayeen from the Arabic fidā'ī, which means one who is ready to sacrifice their life for a cause.

and
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan-i-Sabah


Rings a bell in a way no ? It sure does in the middle east at the moment anyways.

But explosives being pretty new I doubt you'd find any historical data on the use of a suicide act with a large number of civilian casualties.

And on a side note, the destruction of large numbers of civilians for the sole purpose of demoralizing your enemy isn't a new method by far.
The US fire bombed numerous Japanese and German cities on purpose, not by accident ... Hiroshima ? ... Nagasaki ?

Its still a valid tactic even nowadays, just have to present it better to your dinning public now.

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

The fire bombings ? .......Not a proud moment by any means.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki ?

Totally different element.

The causalities were tiny compared to the ones projected for an invasion of the mainland.
And in neither case did the person or person kill themselves in the process believing they would go to heaven.

But it is very clear that the killing of civilians does nothing to stop the conflict or truly weaken morale, instead it seems to inflame people and create more violence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9tif_massacre

So far it seems there is only one group that feels not only a lack of guilt but, from all reports, joy at the prospect of killing civilians.
They seem to also be the only group that is not denounced for the tactic by their own countrymen.

Since we have no true civilians in the game there would seem to be no need for a strap-on suicide bomber.

I mean, do we want to capture soldiers and cut their heads off ?
Or capture insurgents and waterboard them ?

I think we have enough suicide options in the game without adding a dedicated class.

[Saobh]

The fire bombings ? .......Not a proud moment by any means.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki ?

Totally different element.

The causalities were tiny compared to the ones projected for an invasion of the mainland.
And in neither case did the person or person kill themselves in the process believing they would go to heaven.

But it is very clear that the killing of civilians does nothing to stop the conflict or truly weaken morale, instead it seems to inflame people and create more violence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9tif_massacre

So far it seems there is only one group that feels not only a lack of guilt but, from all reports, joy at the prospect of killing civilians.
They seem to also be the only group that is not denounced for the tactic by their own countrymen.

Since we have no true civilians in the game there would seem to be no need for a strap-on suicide bomber.

I mean, do we want to capture soldiers and cut their heads off ?
Or capture insurgents and waterboard them ?

I think we have enough suicide options in the game without adding a dedicated class.

"Lack of guilt" ? Here you are speaking like a hippie westerner
In most parts of the world civilians are pretty much there only to feed the "strong" be it Kings, thugs, Despots etc and their followers.
They are just a means to an end.

And the fact that the general population don't voice much opposition against it is meaningless, as it has been like this under one form or the other for ages.

As for the "joy" of it, religion dogmatism does have a way of giving people their kicks indeed. But to be honest in their mindset its not much worst then the soldiers of Genghis Khan when they laid waste to a whole city just because it did not surrender ( and by that I mean total annihilation ) or the soldiers who drove off the indians from their lands on long journeys in which half of them died off.

They where all doing their job (be it for the money, country, land , blood etc ) in their point of view in the end.

Also worthy of note, is this

excerpt :

PERHAPS no fact is more revealing about Iraq’s history than this: The Iraqis have a word that means to utterly defeat and humiliate someone by dragging his corpse through the streets.

The word is “sahel,”...

Just can't juge them or other cultures with our own mindsets, you have to understand where they come from.
It doesn't excuse anything, just explains a bit the "Why"s.

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

Lack of guilt.... it does apply despite cultural differences.

Many people do things they need to but feel bad about it, it may not be guilt by the strict definition but the feeling is the same.

Harris was attacked after the war for the firebombing and countless people have expressed regret and guilt over the use of the atomic bomb, even while they recognize that in the long run it was the better choice.


I find it hard to believe that there are not a lot of Muslims who are disgusted by suicide bombers but for various reasons choose not to speak out about it.

If they aren't, if there are a whole group of people who can watch such savagery and simply turn away then maybe we really do have a clash of civilizations that needs to be won at all costs.

I don't believe that because I know a Muslim or two and they are basically just like everyone else and the ones I know well enough to ask about it, despise the suicide murderers.


the people who created a culture that gives us this ( http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b26_1186298999 ) need to be held accountable and not by the Christians, Jews, Buddhists etc.

The process of democracy is one that holds hope for accountability.

The fact that the democratic process is not indigenous to their culture does not mean that it is impossible for them to use it and grow out of a theocratic based society.

I think, with some exceptions, we all agree that a society run on the dictates of deity has no place in the modern world and certainly one that has a nuclear capability needs more earthbound accountability.

[TheTank]

Hiroshima and Nagasaki... please.
The military had a new weapon and needed a reason to use it, so they created one.
Not the first time stuff was made up so that people could get what they wanted. *cough* WMDs *cough*
Moral bombigs? Would be called terrorism if the roles were reversed.

Not to mention anyone willing to slaughter children in order to save a few soldiers should be locked away for life.

@Mek:
Shame people do not know much about the MEK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen-e_Khalq

The PMOI is designated as a terrorist organization by the United States, Canada, European Union, and Iran.

btw: PMOI = MEK

After the 2003 invasion of Iraq

Main article: Monafiqeen-e-Khalq Surrender (2003)

After the 2003 invasion of Iraq, MEK camps were bombed by coalition forces because of its alliance with Saddam Hussein. On April 15, the leaders of the MEK entered into a ceasefire agreement with the coalition after the attack. Each compound surrendered without hostilities. [24][25][26] In the operation, the US reportedly captured 6,000 MEK fighters and over 2,000 pieces of military equipment.[27][28]

After a four-month investigation by several U.S. agencies, including the State Department, only a handful of charges under U.S. criminal law were brought against MEK members, all American citizens. The PMOI remains listed as a Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO) by the Department of State. [5] Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld declared MEK personnel in Ashraf protected persons under the Fourth Geneva Convention. They are currently under the guard of US Military. Defectors from this group are housed separately in a refugee camp within Camp Ashraf, and protected by the Bulgarian Army. [6] [7]

Yeah, us 'hippies' tend to not collaborate with and support terrorists like you, huh?
Typical of many hypocrites, ***** at others for smelling funny while they are neck deep in animal droppings.

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

Hiroshima and Nagasaki... please.
The military had a new weapon and needed a reason to use it, so they created one.
Not the first time stuff was made up so that people could get what they wanted. *cough* WMDs *cough*
Moral bombings? Would be called terrorism if the roles were reversed.
Not to mention anyone willing to slaughter children in order to save a few soldiers should be locked away for life.
@Mek:
Shame people do not know much about the MEK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen-e_Khalq
btw: PMOI = MEK
Yeah, us 'hippies' tend to not collaborate with and support terrorists like you, huh?
Typical of many hypocrites, ***** at others for smelling funny while they are neck deep in animal droppings.

I don't understand.

Are you saying that the western military and the US in particular are on a par with Al Queda ?

Do you think that a bomb that misses a military target and a suicide bombing in a disco are the same thing ?

Do you know how people died taking the small island of Okinawa ?
Do you know how many Purple Hearts were ordered for the invasion of the mainland ?
Do you know how protective the Japanese are of their home soil ?

I think it is a trendy, throw-away cliché to say since we built it we had to use it .

I would also ask you who else do you think would have developed a weapon that powerful and NOT used it ?



Morals do count, otherwise we could have nuked about 10 places in Iraq and Iran and called it a day.

As far as WMDs, use your Google to find all the people talking about how he had them for over ten years and used that as justification for the embargo and bombings.
(Hint..... Kerry and both Clintons)

Yeah, us 'hippies' tend to not collaborate with and support terrorists like you, huh?
I am not sure what you are trying to say here....who are the hippies and who is " you " ?

It is indisputable that some of the "anti-war" protesters are aiding the enemy if only by providing sound bytes for Al Jazeera and I would suspect some collaborate in more substantial ways.

Jane Fonda and her type helped the NVA's propaganda effort in the same way.



I do not find it hypocritical to note the differences between modern western armies and terrorist groups who take their orders from a deity.

[AnRK]

I don't quite get the nuclear bombings of Japan. Since it's an island would it not have been possible to just surround them and wait it out? It's not like they'd have been capable of any attacks with sufficient naval reinforcement on the allies part.

As far as the whole terrorism from both angles is concerned though it's not like the U.S army is squeaky clean in terms of what could be easily seen as terrorist atrocities. Vietnam's a classic example. I'm not up on the figures or anything but a fair number of civilians were killed by the U.S. army not even with the reasoning of self defence and stuff like that's hardly top secret. I read something about 1 commander wanting either a village or several villages in North Vietnam completely destroyed and all the residents killed, I can't source this with any great confidence because I forget the details but I'll look it up.

I see your point about how 'terrorists' conduct themselves and how they abide by vast misinterpretations of Islamic text but how many overtly Christian members of the U.S. army are there? And how much are they using their faith as a reason to fight while simultaneously going against many core values of Christianity just as Muslim soldiers do. I'd be ridiculous to argue that the notion of holy war was something only seen by Islamic militants.

I don't get what you mean by Al Jazeera sound bytes though. Al Jazeera as far as I'm aware is merely a news channel with a bias toward Arab nationalism (but not terrorism) and is frequently misinterpreted as propaganda merely because of them broadcasting videos from Al Qaeda in a typical news like fashion. The channels been a bit of pain in the arse of many of the more conservative Muslims as far as I've heard as well because of it's history of freedom of speech which has been contested by Arabic states and is often very critical of middle eastern governments.

As far as the suggestion goes there seems to be plenty of suicide opportunitys for the Insurgents. It would be nice to see a slightly more organised Al Qaeda like faction in game at some point similar to the Militia faction. Could have a combination of insurgent tactics and more conventional squad based fighting.