Give the Medic Class Scopes

Scot · Post by **Scot** » 2008-04-29 22:53

the royal engineers all get given scopes to my knowledge, even when building bridges, blowing them up etc. I think nowadays the only time you dont use SUSAT is in jungle, as it doesnt work or summin?? but i think this would be a good addition, but like someone said, in a firefight, if im medic, i pop my head up, shoots 4 rounds in the general direction and then let the scopes pick em off!

edit: have fired the cadet GP rifle and the aiming is very similar to that on PR, in the fact, you are aiming and so most of your side vision goes.

Darkpowder · Post by **Darkpowder** » 2008-04-29 23:01

I will bring the issue down to one thing.
With scopes you have one job, to locate and kill the enemy. This is NOT the medics primary job.

Giving them sights will make them way more inclined to doing the job of a rifleman than they already are.

Medics do need to put their weight into the firefight, but their focus should be those enemies and friends that are close to them.
If you are not healing you should be watching to see where your squad are, and familiarising yourself with their voices so you can be straight to them if they go down, and reminding them where you will be if they need aid.

Medics should be healing, if you need a scope your squad aren't doing their job, and if you are shooting at distant enemies with injured squadmates or other members of your team around you aren't doing your job -as- a medic.

On balance there are reasons, i.e. if your squadmember was killed at long range by a marksman and you are isolated in a long-range ambush against an enemy, BUT a medic should not find themselves in that position, and would be better advised to re-org somewhere sensible and safer, as a medic should not create a high likelihood of a second casualty when attending to someone injured.

DeltaFart · Post by **DeltaFart** » 2008-04-29 23:42

You guys are putting too much into gameplay, the way things stand, in real life as this mod is trying to attain as much as possible, medics go out into combat with optics, because these guys aren't surgeons, most of the wounds in game would require a surgeon to fix. The medics are like civilian paramedics, all they do is stop the bleeding. YOu can't fix them up to 100% like ingame now, it just doesn't happen.
Best thing to do is remove the first aid kit, give loads of bandages, and give the medic an IV plug or a syringe filled with a pain killer instead of defibrillator(cause they just being used so wrong ingame) to help the critically wounded, you don't encounter heart attacks that often in a battle. THe best way to do with the medic is to give them ability to stop bleed and heal to about 25% so you dont have trouble seeing(unless its ahead shot, because by than, you're already dead!)
ANd the suggestion that all kits except absolute basic ones be kept as request seems like a good idea. Conv Armies/Militia have SL RM SRM, Ins have CL Ins WV and Civ

00SoldierofFortune00 · Post by **00SoldierofFortune00** » 2008-04-30 00:45

Natala wrote:BEEN DISCUSSED TO DEATH! There are a few threads about this subject already.

Here is the basic arguments from past threads quickly summarised.

a) Medics with scope would encourage whats known as "Ramboing", as in, it would become the favorite class for people who wants to rush off and combat without having to depend upon his squad, or teamwork, as he can rush around alone and heal himself.

There is no such thing as ramboing in this game anymore. Lone wolves yes, because they go off alone, but ramboing would imply that they were success at killing and 1 person against an entire squad is not going to last long, with or without a medic pack and scope. In BF2 yes, in PR no.

Just because a medic gets a scope doesn't mean that player actually has skills and does not have to aim anymore or hit close to the target. They can heal themselves all they want, but if you are being attacked by an entire squad or a hord of armor, medic is no better or worse than the rest of the classes.

d) Medic's place are best suited behind his squad, not as front line fighters, they are support classes, they should be watching their friends backs, and scouting around. If you have played Medics regularly, you would have learned the beauty of Ironsight as you try and revive a body and the enemy suddenly pops up to check out his kill. If your friend is killed by a scope at a distance, you got smoke.

If anything, give Medics a shovel.

Medics are frontline fighters just like everyone else has said. They are basically working with the infantry and are grunts.

[T]Terranova7 · Post by **[T]Terranova7** » 2008-04-30 01:06

If medics are given a scope, I'd only like to see that under the condition that they become limited. I've seen it before, back in earlier releases when there was no scoped weapons (Besides the sniper/marksman). You end up with up to 3 guys on average choosing medic within squads. Rifleman is a popular choice now because it's the best kit used for combat. No other kit on that spawn menu has a scope besides the officer, which is also limited. Give the medic a scope, and keep it on the spawn menu, the common choice of kit would revert from rifleman to medic.

The medic class (In fact every class) has body armor, and there's no reason to take that away. In regards to self-healing, it's a quirk not many people know about so it's not a major. But it's the fact that players will generally choose medic not only for it's combat effectiveness, but it's ability to provide revivals for critically wounded players. The kit then goes from underplayed to overplayed. On infantry oriented maps, you're highly likely to see whole squads with 5 medics and one officer, I know it's something I would do. The ability to fight at range and high probability of revival would make such a loadout extremely powerful.

Lack of grenades and ammunition isn't a giant factor. Average engagement ranges aren't close enough to use grenades, and the fact that the grenades generally won't do anything but scratch and annoy a few guys. The ammo bag has been nerfed, so it's not really that useful anymore unless you have a LAT guy. It's better to get ammo from a jeep or supply crate.

If medics are given a scope, limit them to the kit request menu. I would like to see the same done for engineer too if that's the case.

DeltaFart · Post by **DeltaFart** » 2008-04-30 01:09

Take away the whole heal 100% deal, I say make the bleeding stop, and thats it. If you are near death, the scene will revert from being the black white to color, but with some black aroudn the edges. See my post for some ideas for the medic

00SoldierofFortune00 · Post by **00SoldierofFortune00** » 2008-04-30 01:29

'[T wrote:Terranova7;665439']If medics are given a scope, I'd only like to see that under the condition that they become limited. I've seen it before, back in earlier releases when there was no scoped weapons (Besides the sniper/marksman). You end up with up to 3 guys on average choosing medic within squads. Rifleman is a popular choice now because it's the best kit used for combat. No other kit on that spawn menu has a scope besides the officer, which is also limited. Give the medic a scope, and keep it on the spawn menu, the common choice of kit would revert from rifleman to medic.

The medic class has changed a lot since earlier releases. Earlier releases, it took 2 seconds to med yourself and there were no bandages. Medic was essentially what it was in VBF2. There is no comparison anymore.

No need to limit it or else there would be even less people playing it than now.

The medic class (In fact every class) has body armor, and there's no reason to take that away. In regards to self-healing, it's a quirk not many people know about so it's not a major. But it's the fact that players will generally choose medic not only for it's combat effectiveness, but it's ability to provide revivals for critically wounded players. The kit then goes from underplayed to overplayed. On infantry oriented maps, you're highly likely to see whole squads with 5 medics and one officer, I know it's something I would do. The ability to fight at range and high probability of revival would make such a loadout extremely powerful.

They could do that, but they would also sacrifice nades for med kits and nades are a huge killer in this game in CQB. If you chose all medics and SL on a long range map just because it has scopes and healing abilities, you would get riped apart by armor, vehicles, and LAT. Just because the medic gets a scope doesn't mean it would be the end of all kits.

Grenades and ammunition isn't a giant factor. Average engagement ranges aren't close enough to use grenades, and the fact that the grenades generally won't do anything but scratch and annoy a few guys. The ammo bag has been nerfed, so it's not really that useful anymore unless you have a LAT guy. It's better to get ammo from a jeep or supply crate.

This is not CSS. Grenades kill in one shot if you are within 10feet unless you are behind cover. Grenades are a huge part of this game. Officer and Rifleman get 3 nades each and most people use them. Play Basrah and tell me that doesn't turn into a nade fest in the villages. Play Sunset and tell me the center isn't a frag fest. Same with Bi Ming. Ammunition has been slightly nerfed, but you can still replentish your bandage and ammo pack.

If the combat is long range, they probably won't have a vehicle close by, so they will run out quick if they are engage. If they are in CQB, they are not going to last long anyway, especially with nade spam.

If medics are given a scope, limit them to the kit request menu. I would like to see the same done for engineer too if that's the case.

I agree that engineer should be requestable and each squad should have no problem at all getting 2 LATs, but medic should never be limited.

[T]Terranova7 · Post by **[T]Terranova7** » 2008-04-30 02:13

00SoldierofFortune00 wrote:They could do that, but they would also sacrifice nades for med kits and nades are a huge killer in this game in CQB. If you chose all medics and SL on a long range map just because it has scopes and healing abilities, you would get riped apart by armor, vehicles, and LAT. Just because the medic gets a scope doesn't mean it would be the end of all kits.

So if I'm having trouble dealing with armor, I sacrifice one guy to take an AT kit, maybe another with ammo. Still doesn't change the fact that the other half would be medics. But that's really only on maps where armor can be a pain. Maps like Fool's Road, Assault on Mestia, Qwai River etc. are all maps that make infantry movement easy and effective, and also maps where such a loadout would be strong.

This is not CSS. Grenades kill in one shot if you are within 10feet unless you are behind cover. Grenades are a huge part of this game. Officer and Rifleman get 3 nades each and most people use them. Play Basrah and tell me that doesn't turn into a nade fest in the villages. Play Sunset and tell me the center isn't a frag fest. Same with Bi Ming. Ammunition has been slightly nerfed, but you can still replentish your bandage and ammo pack.

If the combat is long range, they probably won't have a vehicle close by, so they will run out quick if they are engage. If they are in CQB, they are not going to last long anyway, especially with nade spam.

This is where I just flat out disagree. The grenades aren't that powerful, it's been addressed in previous threads too. You have to roll a grenade very close to your opponent to actually kill them or heavily wound them, and usually such moments are rare. In most infantry on infantry engagements, a good 90% of the deaths are usually from small arms, grenades really don't make a major impact.

Even in an urban environment, it's much more faster and effective to set your rifle on burst or automatic, and rush around the corner or into a building to aquire a CQC kill as opposed to trying to use grenades. Nade spam is really only good for softening up a group of targets than it is to kill them.

About the ammo bit, it's unlikely that would be a major problem. Even then, you can sacrifice one player to hand out ammo, but that squad would still have four other medics. Though, point, accurate fire is still usually the preferred method of killing opponents (And in many was, is still more effective than suppression fire in PR). This means lots of single shot rounds being fired, and generally not a lot of ammo being spent.

I simply guarantee on a map that's not dominated by armor, having 50% or more medics in your squad is going to give everyone in it an outstanding KDR. Not only will the scopes help them acquire kills with relative ease, but that fact that most their squad mates will possess the ability to revive them will help decrease the amount of deaths.

And even if we're going on the realism argument of medics having scopes. Truth is medics aren't that common on the battlefield anyhow. The fact that they're underplayed sort of represents that general lack of medics. I mean personally, I don't mind giving it a scope, but there's no reason a medic should be unlimited and other, more common roles on the battlefield such as LAT, Grenaider, Automatic Rifleman remain limited, to me that logic is somewhat awkward.

DeltaFart · Post by **DeltaFart** » 2008-04-30 02:17

If we gonna talk about nades and ability to kill I refer you to here
RnL Forum - Grenades
That was a long talk about that.

00SoldierofFortune00 · Post by **00SoldierofFortune00** » 2008-04-30 02:41

'[T wrote:Terranova7;665480']So if I'm having trouble dealing with armor, I sacrifice one guy to take an AT kit, maybe another with ammo. Still doesn't change the fact that the other half would be medics. But that's really only on maps where armor can be a pain. Maps like Fool's Road, Assault on Mestia, Qwai River etc. are all maps that make infantry movement easy and effective, and also maps where such a loadout would be strong.

On a map like Kashan, you need a LAT and HAT. 1 for APCs, and 1 for tanks. And as you said yourself, ammo has been pretty much nerfed except for yourself, so you might need 2. That limits your squad to 1-2 medics.

On maps like Fool's Road, Mestia, and Qwai, rifleman are more effective because they have nades. Nades are crucial on those maps for clearing out enclosed areas like the Gov Office on Qwai, or Bunkers on Mestia or Train, Warehouse, and Estate on Fool's Road. Medic self healing is only effective after a firefight and if you want to stop mid battle to throw a med pack down, then you are likely to get overrun or fragged. Medic is not the end to all kits.

This is where I just flat out disagree. The grenades aren't that powerful, it's been addressed in previous threads too. You have to roll a grenade very close to your opponent to actually kill them or heavily wound them, and usually such moments are rare. In most infantry on infantry engagements, a good 90% of the deaths are usually from small arms, grenades really don't make a major impact.

Are you sure you are playing PR? Everyone who has nades gets 3 and they are usually thrown by a group of people. I have never seen a game where frags are not being thrown like candy. And if a nade lands right next to you, you maybe able to jump out the way if you see it in time, but you are also likely to be wounded. Infantry on infantry engagements usually come down to nades unless they are at long ranges and who has a SAW since everyone has scopes in most engagements.

Even in an urban environment, it's much more faster and effective to set your rifle on burst or automatic, and rush around the corner or into a building to aquire a CQC kill as opposed to trying to use grenades. Nade spam is really only good for softening up a group of targets than it is to kill them.

You are dead wrong there. Nades take a second to get out, but they are easy kills. The firearms ingame have to settle and if you are engaging multiple targets, you are probably going to end up getting killed by 1 after the other is killed. Nades solve that problem.

About the ammo bit, it's unlikely that would be a major problem. Even then, you can sacrifice one player to hand out ammo, but that squad would still have four other medics. Though, point, accurate fire is still usually the preferred method of killing opponents (And in many was, is still more effective than suppression fire in PR). This means lots of single shot rounds being fired, and generally not a lot of ammo being spent.

A squad of medics would be useless against a squad composed of Officer, SAW, LAT, Grenadier, Rifleman, and Medic. There is more firepower in the SAW alone than those 4 medics. A squad with an automatic rifleman will own most other squads. Grenadier? Long range nade spam. LAT? A missle.

How is a group of medics going to have an advantage against them? I don't care if they can heal themselves, they won't survive a point blank nade or LAT shot or a burst from the SAW.

I simply guarantee on a map that's not dominated by armor, having 50% or more medics in your squad is going to give everyone in it an outstanding KDR. Not only will the scopes help them acquire kills with relative ease, but that fact that most their squad mates will possess the ability to revive them will help decrease the amount of deaths.

I've seen that in prior PR versions and all that happened was a bunch of medics medicing each other while getting slaughtered. I would like to see someone try that in this version. They would be wiped out. And if they are reviving each other, how will they have time to fight?

And even if we're going on the realism argument of medics having scopes. Truth is medics aren't that common on the battlefield anyhow. The fact that they're underplayed sort of represents that general lack of medics. I mean personally, I don't mind giving it a scope, but there's no reason a medic should be unlimited and other, more common roles on the battlefield such as LAT, Grenaider, Automatic Rifleman remain limited, to me that logic is somewhat awkward.

A medic in a real military is far better trained than some random pubby in a game.

Those "common roles" are still going to be played. Having more bandages and a medic bag is no substitute for firepower.

DeltaFart · Post by **DeltaFart** » 2008-04-30 02:44

(yawns) get a room you two, it's 11 at night already......_<_ (<--Sleeping)

HughJass · Post by **HughJass** » 2008-04-30 03:00

nope, medic is a support class, and support classes don't get scopes

DeltaFart · Post by **DeltaFart** » 2008-04-30 03:01

and your ignorant hugh

joking, hope to CO you again soon man

Cyrax-Sektor · Post by **Cyrax-Sektor** » 2008-04-30 03:18

HughJass wrote:nope, medic is a support class, and support classes don't get scopes

*cough* Riflemen *cough*

In a perfect world, the soldiers with scopes would cover the medic as he moves in to revive his comrade. The scoped soldiers would cover them until they got to cover, where the wounded are healed.

But a medic shouldn't need a scope to scan the area and take out hostiles, and have a 30 sec time limit before the soldier dies. But as it is in PR, sometimes you need that scope, because all of the other guys are dead.

CAS_117 · Post by **CAS_117** » 2008-04-30 05:37

Hey Fortune I'm all for it assuming that the get rid of those godawful shock paddles.

turnpipe · Post by **turnpipe** » 2008-04-30 06:26

If they made those cross hairs smaller we would not need a scope.

Scot · Post by **Scot** » 2008-04-30 06:41

what?? crosshairs??? gaaaaaaah??

CAS_117 · Post by **CAS_117** » 2008-04-30 06:56

If he means the irons sights I'd tend to a agree. Hard to hit a target that is as big as the aimer you're using.