Possible solutions to players being too care-free.

[HughJass]

Intresting, but it seems like too much.

Update 1; It just seems this is too much. Players are hardcoded. and anything you did in your "past life" should not transfer over to your current one. It is just not fair.

update 2; I hate perks, perks is a thing of the COD4. It does seem legitimate, but possibly hardcoded. This is a risky one.

update 3; Perks that are class spacific can easily be exploited. Running faster might not be much, but it can ruin the game. People would just go medic so they can run faster, trust me, they would do that.

Well presented, good ideas. Thinking outside the box. Update 2 seems to be the only one that could work, but we will see.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

I wouldn't support a speedboost since its a requirement to have a gold medal in the 100m sprint to enter the medical corps.

Not much of a speedboost, just something a little more maybe since medics don't carry as much gear as others.

[Wolfe]

Medics are designed to save lives, not take them. Giving medics the ability to kill more easily (scopes) is no different than giving riflemen the ability to heal more easily. And as for an increased medic running speed, that's like a 3 a.m. infomercial "...and if you act now, we'll throw in increased running speed, absolutely free!". It's a stupid gimmick that serves no relevant purpose. Besides, increasing one kit's running speed will be exploited for uses other than running to save a teammate.

If you want medics to be more viable, then you have to provide more opportunity for medics to do what they're designed to do. At present, there is little opportunity for medics to heal/revive because:

1. The "man down" time of 30 seconds is too short. It's actually faster (and safer) to just die/respawn than for medics to revive/heal.
2. Locating a man down is to too difficult.
3. Shock paddles have too few charges.
4. Headshots (un-reviveable kills) are too common.

Unfortunately people want other players to be more careful but don't want it applied to themselves; They want to run fast and kill quickly but hate when it's done to them. They want medics to revive, but don't want to wait more than 30 seconds for it. As the original poster stated, people ARE too care-free in-game and it's evidenced by players running around like respawnable players, instead of running around like realistic soldiers.

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If you want people to be more careful with their life, then you have to make them fear death. And the only way is to make the spawn time so uncomfortable that players would rather hide behind cover, retreat, or do anything to preserve their life than run the risk of losing it.

When people say that a 30-40 second spawn is "ok" and "fine", that should immediately tell you that it's not fine. People should never be "ok" with the spawn time in a game where you want players to fear death. The spawn time should be feared. It should be hated. And suddenly, your life matters and medics become the game's #1 asset.

Want life? Fear death. It's that simple. Until that happens, no amount of gimmicks, incentives, effects, or fancy rewards is going to change it.

[para_hjs]

As mentioned already; players are hardcoded. Though the great effort from DEVS to implement the different gameplay thingys to force players to "do right". Learning/playing by doing/dying.

[PFunk]

Players are NOT hardcoded, they just don't have an SDK.

Saying players are hardcoded is very cute but not really true. Things that are hardcoded can't be changed, period. But PR has proven that you can subtly make people change. Otherwise future releases involving balance are meaningless unless you can actually affect the play style and not just the mathematical number game that it would turn out to be otherwise.

You just need every SL to be as good as Fuzz. THEN you wouldn't need any of this ****.

[Defiyur]

I think it's important to define just exactly what it is a medic (or any class for that matter) is supposed to do. Is he supposed to take shots at enemies with his scoped rifle? I don't think so. That seems like pretty risky behavior for the one guy responsible for taking care of his buddies to engage in. I'm not sure about the speed if it should be faster or not (a tradeoff between carrying medical supplies or a weapon + ammo and all that). I would be fine with just giving the medic a handgun to be used for self defense/last resort type encounters. Sure you can be offensive with it too but you will be limited in your killing ability (a good thing). I mean I don't know since I'm not in the military, do dedicated medics still even exist IRL? And if so what do they do exactly. Do they hang back away from immediate danger until they are needed or do they go in with everyone else?

[TY2D2]

You just need every SL to be as good as Fuzz. THEN you wouldn't need any of this ****.

You mean the guy that likes to make Biker Squads and race around Basrah dodging wrecked cars?


If so... I TOTALLY agree.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Medics are designed to save lives, not take them. Giving medics the ability to kill more easily (scopes) is no different than giving riflemen the ability to heal more easily. And as for an increased medic running speed, that's like a 3 a.m. infomercial "...and if you act now, we'll throw in increased running speed, absolutely free!". It's a stupid gimmick that serves no relevant purpose. Besides, increasing one kit's running speed will be exploited for uses other than running to save a teammate.

Medics are also given a weapon for personal defense, so why shouldn't they have the same kind of personal defense as everyone else since he is in the thick of it as well? What if the whole squad gets wiped out from afar on a map like Kashan. Some will say, "smoke", but settings can effect smoke and distance as well. So why shouldn't he have the same personal defense as the rest? Remember the HAT with the pistol? Look how well that worked out. Not many went HAT because they were at such a disadvantage at times.


And you keep saying things will be exploited, but how exactly is a kit going to be exploited that is designed for healing? Even if you give the medic a scope or run boost, how is that going to make them a killing machine when everyone else has those capabilities or ones of their own? This game has checks and balances you need to acknowledge. Medic doesn't have a HAT, LAT, nades, 4x zoom, pistol, a LMG, etc. Can that medic magically heal himself ala vanilla BF2 while firing his weapon behind a position of cover all at the sametime? No, he will get shot.

If you want medics to be more viable, then you have to provide more opportunity for medics to do what they're designed to do. At present, there is little opportunity for medics to heal/revive because:

1. The "man down" time of 30 seconds is too short. It's actually faster (and safer) to just die/respawn than for medics to revive/heal.
2. Locating a man down is to too difficult.
3. Shock paddles have too few charges.
4. Headshots (un-reviveable kills) are too common.

[/Youtube]

I have addressed locating the man down before, but headshots are not going to change, nor the amount of shock paddles (you say too few, but they changed it specifically because there were too many before), and the man down time is not worth upping because if the medic dies or no one is medic, you wait longer. (unless there is no death time afterward, which varies greatly)

IF a squad is engaging a bunch of enemies from a distance, why shouldn't the medic be engaging them as well? If none of them are currently hurt, then the medic is just dead weight and many players begin to feel this way on huge wide open maps or even smaller maps. And some say that medics should be healing instead of fighting, but if your medic doesn't know when to seperate himself from the two when necessary, he is definately not going to be any different with or without a scope.


Unfortunately people want other players to be more careful but don't want it applied to themselves; They want to run fast and kill quickly but hate when it's done to them. They want medics to revive, but don't want to wait more than 30 seconds for it. As the original poster stated, people ARE too care-free in-game and it's evidenced by players running around like respawnable players, instead of running around like realistic soldiers.

Yea, because everyone who plays this game is supposed to be militarily trained? Because you can apply very realistic tactics in this game? Wrong.

And if these players wanted long, drawn out tactics and battles, they would be playing ArmA right now. This mod combines the best of both worlds and was not designed for 1 more than another. I could care less if a player lone wolves or goes off on their own because I still know that my squad has no problem taking out those very people on the other team and once they figure out it is not worth it, they will either join a squad and try, or leave the mod. If a player is too care-free, they die plain and simple. Don't try to force them to do something they do not want to do.
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If you want people to be more careful with their life, then you have to make them fear death. And the only way is to make the spawn time so uncomfortable that players would rather hide behind cover, retreat, or do anything to preserve their life than run the risk of losing it.

Yea, so tkers, snipers, tankers, vehicle gunners, helicopters, jets, or campers could rule the battlefield? No thanks.

If a player is too "care-free", he dies plain and simple. It is either his fault or the squads fault. Don't like it? Kick him from the squad and find someone else. Don't punish anyone else just because the game is not going your way.

When people say that a 30-40 second spawn is "ok" and "fine", that should immediately tell you that it's not fine. People should never be "ok" with the spawn time in a game where you want players to fear death. The spawn time should be feared. It should be hated. And suddenly, your life matters and medics become the game's #1 asset.

This mod isn't about fearing death, it is about having the best tactics, squad, CO, and team to win by pushing them back, not how much you make the other team fear being killed. What happens when people fear being killed? They hide and wait or get an unfair advantage like armor, jets, or helicopters plain and simple.

Want life? Fear death. It's that simple. Until that happens, no amount of gimmicks, incentives, effects, or fancy rewards is going to change it.

No. Has that worked for CSS? No. Does that work for COD4? No.

Just get over the fact that not everyone is going to play this game the way you want it to be played. Not everyone knows military tactics or can even employ them in a game, so they will do what they have to do to survive which are within the game's set limitations.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

I think it's important to define just exactly what it is a medic (or any class for that matter) is supposed to do. Is he supposed to take shots at enemies with his scoped rifle? I don't think so. That seems like pretty risky behavior for the one guy responsible for taking care of his buddies to engage in.

Is hiding behind his squad any less risky if they have rockets and grenades coming at them? What about if everyone in his squad is taken out and he has a bunch of enemies running at him from the hills? What is he supposed to do to them, because he sure as hell won't have enough time to revive enough guys for defense before those 2-3 enemies are on top of him. What if he doesn't even care he doesn't have a scope and exposes himself anyway to shoot at the enemies like many medics now?

Doing anything in this game is risky. It is the player and luck which determines the outcome, not the class.

I'm not sure about the speed if it should be faster or not (a tradeoff between carrying medical supplies or a weapon + ammo and all that). I would be fine with just giving the medic a handgun to be used for self defense/last resort type encounters. Sure you can be offensive with it too but you will be limited in your killing ability (a good thing). I mean I don't know since I'm not in the military, do dedicated medics still even exist IRL? And if so what do they do exactly. Do they hang back away from immediate danger until they are needed or do they go in with everyone else?

Giving a medic a pistol is just reverting to what happened in an earlier version of PR with the HAT. No one played or didn't like to play HAT because he only had a pistol.

And do you think insurgents, militias, or terrorist are going to follow the Geneva Convention and not shoot at medics/corpsman healing people? No.

[Defiyur]

Giving a medic a pistol is just reverting to what happened in an earlier version of PR with the HAT. No one played or didn't like to play HAT because he only had a pistol.

And do you think insurgents, militias, or terrorist are going to follow the Geneva Convention and not shoot at medics/corpsman healing people? No.

Maybe only a pistol is a little extreme but like I was saying what is the medics job supposed to be? The more able and concerned you are with killing baddies the less focused you are on your job. The AT guy with a pistol probably failed because AT is a class is intended to be in the action not hanging back reviving guys. I really don't know the best solution but I really don't think a scope is necessary for medics. I think they just need to have their role/abilities expanded somehow.

[PFunk]

The medic's role is pretty big as it is. Trying to play Medic is hard. You have so many things you have to do. Keeping track of the squad, listening for the call, trying not to get yourself killed while healing, reviving, and even having to sometimes throw a medpack on a corpse so he'll get popped out of the ground so you can use your paddles, all while dodging fire and communicating with the squad and timing your move so you don't become the next casualty.

Its not that the medic needs more work, its that people don't like being a non combat figure. Even in the deep thinking world of PR people want to be the tactically sound version of Rambo. They want the kills and the thrills.

And people keep talking about the solution is to make people fear death. So far all you guys suggest is making people fear respawn timers. Besides it isn't aboput fearing death cause you ramp that up and nobody will want to take any risks ever, and combat is all about risks.

What we really want is people to be SMART. Fact is that even in real life soldiers do stupid impulsive arrogant things. Thats why they want really good leaders. A good SL keeps the noobs down. Anything else is just tweaking details around that fact.

[[PR]CATA.Mobius]

Functionally, a medic's simply a riflemen with some cursory training in first aid and battlefield trauma treatment (with the relevant equipment), why not equip him similarly to the riflemen of PR and give him optics? When he's not healing, he's fighting, and he's not going to give much help in the aspect if he's only toting around iron sights.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Maybe only a pistol is a little extreme but like I was saying what is the medics job supposed to be? The more able and concerned you are with killing baddies the less focused you are on your job. The AT guy with a pistol probably failed because AT is a class is intended to be in the action not hanging back reviving guys. I really don't know the best solution but I really don't think a scope is necessary for medics. I think they just need to have their role/abilities expanded somehow.

Medics are in the thick of things such as much as the AT is. You could say that AT should hang back aswell, especially HAT because it is too risky to waste.

And the "The more able and concerned you are with killing baddies the less focused you are on your job" argument makes no sense right now because it doesn't address what happens on urban maps. Ok, so if a medic doesn't have a scope, he won't engage enemies on med-long range maps, but why don't medics rambo and engage enemies right now on CQB maps where their iron sights work best? Exactly, flawed argument.

CATA.Mobius;682863']Functionally, a medic's simply a riflemen with some cursory training in first aid and battlefield trauma treatment (with the relevant equipment), why not equip him similarly to the riflemen of PR and give him optics? When he's not healing, he's fighting, and he's not going to give much help in the aspect if he's only toting around iron sights.

What I have been saying.

[Deadmonkiefart]

5 minutes?? I like the idea, but there's no way they can make it last 5 minutes. That's really excessive.

[BillyBob5134]

Thats not so realistic and this mod is all about realism.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

;686251']Because he can survive greatly on it's own ( A lot of fielddressings). When given the scope, he will become a nuicance.

He can't apply those field dressings and fight at the sametime though. Those field dressings are null and void if he gets hit and killed, so that is a false argument.

[Wolfe]

He can't apply those field dressings and fight at the sametime though. Those field dressings are null and void if he gets hit and killed, so that is a false argument.

Soldier, do you actually think about what you type or do you just react to the first thing that pops into your head?

It's not a false argument, it's the entire argument. If medics get scopes, then over 50% of infantrymen will choose to be medic and because it will grant them 2-3 times more health than everyone else, assuming they find cover for a few seconds which isn't hard to do.

And until there is some kind of deviation/time penalty for moving, shooting, and entering scope mode, then giving everyone scopes just makes run/gun/accuracy that much more worse.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Soldier, do you actually think about what you type or do you just react to the first thing that pops into your head?

It's not a false argument, it's the entire argument. If medics get scopes, then over 50% of infantrymen will choose to be medic and because it will grant them 2-3 times more health than everyone else, assuming they find cover for a few seconds which isn't hard to do.

Speak for yourself. That "whole argument" is horrible because the basis on it is that medics will have infininate life which is completely false because if they are hit, they are out of the fight for at least 5-10 seconds while the field dressings load or are applied and if they are fatally shot in the head, they cannot magically bring themselves back to life. They are the same as every kit out there, except they lack firepower and have a few more bandages. Sure, they can go to cover for a few seconds, but any experienced squad will take that opportunity and flank them with it and suppress them.


Another basis of that argument is that medics will lone wolf or rambo. Ok, I hope they do so squads like mine who use teamwork will make quick work of them. You say 50% of infantryman will go medic? Fine by me, watch them do that for 1 round and once they are crushed by armor, vehicles, jets, helicopters, enemy squads using teamwork, and nade spammers, they will turn back to their previous kit next game.

And until there is some kind of deviation/time penalty for moving, shooting, and entering scope mode, then giving everyone scopes just makes run/gun/accuracy that much more worse.

There is a penalty, the round doesn't hit when you automatically stop, hence you have to wait and it is not going back to how it was before because it was too extreme. And the whole point of giving the medic the scope is because it is REALISTIC for one, and two, EVERYONE ALREADY HAS A SCOPE.