Alright, currently in PR, the tank driver is actually the commander. He got this nice periscope camera thingy and can spot alot of stuff while the guy on the .50 is just a guy on the .50.
I am suggesting a split between the driver and the tank commander by restricting the vision of the driver. Put the driver camera in under the cannon area and dont allow the driver to look back, just like APCs are now. And add a 4th seat with the periscope camera thingy where the TC can sit.
Now, this should give tanks with "only" 2 members a disadvantage while on the move because the driver wont be able to spot things as good as he can now, becasue of the narowed field of view. Sure, he can hop in the TC seat after stopping, but on the move, the situational awereness should be reduced.
This will also make the third spot in the tank more attractive for people because the TC wont be a sitting duck as he is now.
My suggestion should give fully manned tanks a much bigger advantage than they have now, since the TC can add not only an extra pair of eyes to the tank, but also a much bigger field of view while on the move, and if he is an engineer, he can also repair the tank in the field. He will also be able to get on the .50 cal and help engaging low flying helichopters and other "low health" threats.
Yay or nay?
Never argue with an idiot, he will just drag you down to his level and beat you by experience
This was done before and it is impossible to simulate the amount of training and coordination that goes into a tank crew with people who have just met for the first time online.
Why? If the TC is the SL (as he should be) he can easily coordinate his crew. *Puts move marker, "Move there". *Puts attack marker "Enemy APC NE on the marker."
I've done this before while being in the .50, and i can tell you that it was a pain in the *** because the driver could see far more things than me and i had to hold the CTRL button down half that time to prevent people from sniping me.
As for this taking too many people from the frontline, not really. This will not make that seat third crewmember 100 nessesary, but it will give properly crewed tanks a good advantage. Its already a big advantage to have an engineer in your tank already, but this will also increase realism
Never argue with an idiot, he will just drag you down to his level and beat you by experience
Say you have an engie riding on the 0.50cal for field repairs, does that mean all the TC can do is just look around?
I have no idea if it is how they work irl or not but having the commander be able to use the 0.50 from inside the tank by computer (like in ArmA) would make a three man crew very effective much more desirable. I’ve no idea if its like that irl so please do correct me if I'm wrong.
A lot of people would like to see the driver properly restricted, but we don't have the servers big enough to merit 3 person tanks. Normally the loader (the 4th man) does the mounted MG bit. 50% increase in server capacity, perhaps so otherwise we would have no infantry or any other activity aside from MBT's
I dont want 4 people in a tank. 3 is enough. 1 driver 1 gunner and one TC who is usually inside using the periscope camera, but can also get on the .50 cal if needed.
Never argue with an idiot, he will just drag you down to his level and beat you by experience
I do NOT like the commanders view for the driver it's awful and you don't feel like a driver imo its taken away so much from the driver...
My suggestions would be either
1.
give the gunner a second view option so he can use the periscope view, after all irl the commander and gunner both designate targets. one thing I learned from the LAN is the Commander of the CR2 can push a button to swing his gunner around to the next target so if the gunner could switch his view to that of the CO (no delay) you'd have a very similar effect of a gunner and Commander working together finding targets
Think of it working in game, gunner is acting as co with the scope while driving around to the target area "CO" finds and designates target, gun spins around onto target and bang... "CO" then hunts for another target and calls to gunner, gunner finds it and shoots, far better than a driver doing the operation cos right now a driver CANNOT act as CO whilest he's trying to focus ahead driving, when driving around the gunner is spinning around acting as CO as is anyway.
The gunners job wont change, hell be his own CO ordering the driver where to go and when the target is found he'll use the gun, which is all the gunner is there for, shooting, all the time he isn't doing that he'd be far more effective commanding the tank
2. Not as good but have the 50Cal gunner be able to go inside and use periscope, only pop on 50 cal (with delay) when needed so you have a fully effective CO who can man his 50 when needed cos right now a 50 on a tank is cannon fodder
I really want that old driver view back, more realistic and much more tense when in combat
Anyway, one of the benefits of the driver/commander combo is the boredom it relives from simply driving, I don't thin anyone would really wanna drive and nothing but.
If you really want a separated commander then the 50 cal gunner is good enough anyway, he can easily keep tbs on the map and give general directions while the driver can use his periscope to help spot targets for the gunner.
PR is still a game, and you wanna play out the realistic roles of things that are interesting, and leave out things that you can rationalise the absence of (such as loaders in the case of tanks).
Just add another seat with the camera that the driver has now. So theres 4 seats in a tank, doesn't mean you NEED 4 people in it. You could still run it with 2, just that the driver would have a more driver like camera. And if a squad wanted to they could even run it with 4, having a 50 gunner, driver, main gunner, and commander. But more effectively would be a 3 man crew where the CO swaps between commander position and 50cal gunner.
badmojo420 wrote:Just add another seat with the camera that the driver has now. So theres 4 seats in a tank, doesn't mean you NEED 4 people in it. You could still run it with 2, just that the driver would have a more driver like camera. And if a squad wanted to they could even run it with 4, having a 50 gunner, driver, main gunner, and commander. But more effectively would be a 3 man crew where the CO swaps between commander position and 50cal gunner.
Only problem is that you'd lose ALOT of situational awareness without that 3rd guy with you, you wouldn't really be able to run the thing properly with 2 people, and that isn't very reasonable given the limit of people on servers and the boredom that will come out of just driving the tank.
There are enough guys out who use it alone. How do you think would this look if you need 3 or 4 man to crew it the right way. This would never work on public...
And as the others said. On kashan for example are 4 tanks or more...
So 12 (3man tank) to 16 (4 man tank) people use a tank @ the same time. 2 or 3 guys fly... And who the fuck go fight as inf and get the flags?
AnRK wrote:
Anyway, one of the benefits of the driver/commander combo is the boredom it relives from simply driving, I don't thin anyone would really wanna drive and nothing but.
Well, we have drivers in APCs now dont we? Besides, if a driver would want do to something different, the TC spot can be left empty so the driver can hop in it after moving.
If you really want a separated commander then the 50 cal gunner is good enough anyway, he can easily keep tbs on the map and give general directions while the driver can use his periscope to help spot targets for the gunner.
Nope. I cant agree that the .50 cal is good enough. Have you actually been one one ingame? You cant see ****, and every APC/Tank/AA out there will kill you easily even if you duck down.
Never argue with an idiot, he will just drag you down to his level and beat you by experience
If PR is about reality, then make it like reality (other than actually getting hurt.)
Isn't a tank, or at least an Abrams, supposed to have TWO Machine Guns on top?
And correct me if I'm wrong, but can't the MG's be aimed with the use of cameras & a remote control from inside the turret?
Also, players should be able to open and close the hatches on the tanks for safety instead of having to crouch. And you should be able to move the gun while crouched to blind fire.
I like the idea of having a four man crew, but several problems remain, especially regarding the number of players per server and, I hate to say this, but also the type of players on the servers. Here's why:
You couldn't have as many tanks per server if they were fully crewed with four people.
Also, you would be hard pressed to fully crew a tank since most people play the game for the satisfaction of shooting other players - it's a reward mechanism sort of thing.
And so it's hard enough to find drivers as it is - this is why I usually wind up driving cuz I'm easy going (and I've gotten pretty good at driving which is another reason why I'll usually drive.) A lot of players tend to be individualistic and will only follow carrots on sticks such as SL's with the exclusive ability to set up rally points. It is not unusual that once a rally is set up, someone will grab a sniper kit and run off doing their own thing instead of using their shovel to build assets.
But if I could have the opportunity to play with REAL teamplayers more often who take pride in their contributions rather than resent their limitations, I would personally like there to be a separate loader and a driver in addition to a commander and a gunner. (As a side note, however, I do not like the old driver view - I don't believe that's what it actually looks like - the square with the rivets was not real. Just make it the way it looks like in real life.) PROJECT REALITY, guys.
A separate commander SHOULD be able to override a gunner's control of the turret. As annoying as this might be for people who just want to shoot anybody & anything in their field of vision without priority, I know this would be very helpful. I've experienced a lot of instances in which one crewmember can't find what the other one is looking at/ talking about OR in the heat of excitement, the person who sees the threat/ target cannot verbally express themselves quickly & adequately enough. The commander should be able to override & slew the main-gun cross-hairs right onto the priority threat/ target.
Some other problems with 4 crew members:
There would be a lot of chatter. And since some people are either more experienced or more individualistic than others, who listens to who could become frustrating, in spite of the assumed hierarchy.
People would have to trust one another more. But at the same time, to ensure this, NO one could be a noob. Otherwise, a 4-man crew would become exponentially more frustrating than a 2-man crew. At the same time, if you have expert players always hogging up the same vehicles or positions, than you'll have a lot less good players for those different roles and so, ironically, you'll have a lot more noobs for different vehicle positions driving around yelling at one another.
So, it could either be more effective but also more cumbersome.
A solution would be to make the loader and driver roles more interesting with actual interior views of the vehicle and some control over that environment.
A driver should have different views that can be toggled such as night vision, the hands on the bicycle handlebar controls, or be able to see the other crewmembers.
A loader should have the responsibilities of selecting, as instructed, the proper round of the racks (with hand animations), loading the breach, moving back away from the breach (or getting killed by the recoil), shouting "UP!"/ give the clear to pull the trigger, and then take out the smoking spent shell. The loader should have a full view of the interior, including whether or not the hatch is open above him. (Everyone should be able to open, close, & climb out of the hatches to the MG's on top - OR even use there own firearm out the hatch without manning the MG.)
The commander should have access to a separate periscope. Doesn't the driver also look through a sort of periscope thingy? So TWO periscopes. The gunner, well, see's the cross-hairs of the main gun. The gunner should be able to look away from his viewfinder and into the interior, though. Also, I think the commander has a separate periscope cross-hair that he can toggle for the MG on top.
In total, actually, a tank should fit 6 people not 3. Four seats that require a crewman kit for each of the positions and 2 extra people that don't need a kit who can man both MG's on top or stand looking out the hatch - if they choose.
Last edited by Janush Rambowski on 2008-09-17 14:56, edited 3 times in total.
My thought is to give the 50 cal gunner another weapon slot that is basically the periscope and instead of it being a static camera, modify the periscope on the tanks to be the visual point
$kelet0r wrote:Waaah Wah, we had 3 man tank crews before. It didn't work.
When was that? I've played PR since 0.5 and i cannot remember having 3 man tank crews. What was the seats at that time?
Janush, im not suggestiong 4 man crews in tanks.All i want is an extra seat where the TC can sit, and i want that seat to have a periscope camera. Oh and yeah, a new camera for the dvier so he cant look behind the tank.
Never argue with an idiot, he will just drag you down to his level and beat you by experience
No, let it be as it is. The servers are to small, like said.
Kashan Desert for example: 32 man team
8 men to crew the tanks
2 men to crew the AA vehicles
2-3 engineers
2 pilots
1 FAC = 17 - 18 players to operate and support the vehicles
That leaves 13 - 14 players for infantry + commander, that's two infantry squads with 5 people in them and one with 3 or 4 people. And I still haven't included helicopter pilots and APC crew. You see the problem with adding another essential seat to the tanks?
And if the seat is not necessary in order to operate the tank, it is pointless. It's better to let the driver have the commander view. And I can tell you from experience from organized, serious PR games that it is very useful.
Sadist_Cain wrote:I do NOT like the commanders view for the driver it's awful and you don't feel like a driver imo its taken away so much from the driver...
Do you have any idea how good and effective the driver view is?
* It gives you the ability to utilize turret down position, where you use the periscope to look over terrain.
* You can effectivly cover all 360 degrees around you when your gunner is busy engaging a target. So it makes situational awareness pay off.
Jaymz
LeMazing.
