Are players used to the 30 seconds of waiting ?

[Jaymz]

Gotcha, missed that part.

[Charity Case]

Let me reiterate that the goal is that a player never sees an enemy spawn in combat. Ideally, I would love it if when a hostile gets within 200-250m (personally I would average all of the maps view distance but that's another story) of a spawner it shuts off. No reinforcements can spawn during a firefight.

I like this in theory, but I can see players roaming around the map with the express purpose of disabling enemy FOs. Maybe the spawn should only be disabled when a certain number of enemies get close?

[CAS_117]

Well the onus needs to be on the defense to do patrols and control the ground as opposed to hiding in a dark corner under a staircase on full auto praying no one knifes your feet through the wall. And once you get in range of a FOB its not going to be much of a secret anyways if you know what I mean. I'd prefer if it was just one person, because so often during an attack you may only have 1 or 2 people get in range at a time. So I'm not worried about single medic wandering in and shutting down a base, I'm more worried about a squad attacking and facing 2 - 3 waves of the same enemies because only 1 or 2 of them could get exactly within range. If its only one guy by himself I'm certain the squad can handle it since they know he's at least 200m away. I'd prefer it to not be a numbers game if it can be avoided like:

"ok we need 2 guys 200m away from the base leaving 3 of us to set the rally point..."

Just keep it simple: if there's any enemy around, reinforcements stop. Easy to understand. When you die, you don't wait to respawn. Right now there's a lot of numbers memorization that players have to do and that's ok but it seems to have replaced actual tactics. (hmm the BDRM died at 2:12:03 and I just joined this squad at 2:08:41 so I can't get a crewman kit for another 47 seconds...). Just so tedious.

[HughJass]

how about vehicles then? wouldn't most transport vehicle's spawn times have to be knocked down?

[fuzzhead]

I still feel that the black screen really and timer just break the immersion factor significantly. If they are already going back to a base or firebase it doesn't really add anything practical. Its really just a nuisance. I doubt there people would care much about rally points if they could go straight to organizing getting back to their squad.

This is really only an issue when you die in a vehicle IMO.

As an infantry in current PR, the majority (almost all times) when you are shot, you are brought to a wounded state. This is not a black screen but you can still see limited around you, so you are still "in" the game world, just wounded.

The ACE mod for ArmA does this really well, fading in and out, and the ability to drag players and the direct VON make this completely immersive and not tedious in any way whatsoever, you really do feel like your a combat casualty and can hear your squad mates yelling over the gun fire and getting to your position and dragging you back into cover, waiting for the medic to get to you. There might be a video out there of this, but its VERY good for immersion, and I think would be infinitely better than just taking a bullet and instantly warping back to mainbase or firebase, which I think personally would be a big immersion breaker and bring the game back to an arcade level. No, we shouldn't punish players to the point where they are bored out of their minds, but I DO think that players should see a bit more of the consequences of getting shot and not simply be on their merry way 2 seconds after they are killed. I don't see this helping player behavior, only attracting more mindless shooter mentality.

If you really are getting bored waiting 30 seconds on the ground for someone to revive you, I think your going to be bored in several other areas in PR such as: defending a position thats not under attack yet, building a firebase/defenses, walking a long distance, a long car ride, a long heli ride, waiting as a gunner in a vehicle, waiting for your squad to get ready, helping someone setup their microphone, waiting to get healed etc etc. I know what your trying to say (Black Screen = Boring and a Game supposed to = entertaining) but I think if you cant handle a 30s down time as a wounded soldier, then I think you probably may have mild ADHD and will probably find most of the game immensely boring Just my perspective... its a slower paced game, I dont think longer spawn times are the answer but I dont think NO RESPAWN is a good solution either.

I know it may not be immensely interesting in the current PR to be wounded, but certain things definitely make it better, such as being in a good squad and using mumble. On mumble you can talk to the guys around you (locally) and let them know your wounded, and since you can stay wounded for a long time and can continue talking to them on mumble there is a much higher chance you'll be revived as they can find your location from your voice.

Not going to go into too much here because its still highly experimental, but an R-CON was recently added to look into dragging bodies using a very cool method he found using reverse explosions to air lift vehicles. So if this was possible, it would certainly make being a wounded more immersive and interesting experience.

In current PR, I think its safe to assume you'll wait anywhere from 15-90 seconds in the wounded state, hoping that your medic can revive you. I've waited to nearly the full 3 minutes many times and got revived and was happy about it I know many people won't do this and hate the idea of waiting around for others to help them, but I love going a whole round without dying and this was one of those rare cases hehe Just an example from a different perspective on the spawn/wounded timer.

About civilians - obviously they need to be looked at. But that discussion should be completely seperate, as its a whole big can of worms that needs its own topic, as I think to truly change the civilian behavior and model, insurgency needs some drastic changes itself. But its a seperate topic and only affects 4 maps and only 1 class, so its not as big issue as the current discussion about RP's and spawn times.

Revives I think add a few things in game:

- an alternative approach to "spawning" ie: neither reviving or spawning is realistic, but reviving increases the need for teamwork whereas spawning does not involve any teamwork or reliance on squad members, but simply rewards individual choice and a carefree attitude and the team wide situation.
- adds a very basic approach to the real life time consuming process of treating combat casualties in a warzone. Although its only barely touched upon in PR with the current system, its better than completely abandoning/ignoring the wounded IMO. For example, right now a team that does not abandon their wounded over a team that does abandon their wounded will generally be in better shape ticket wise anyways.

With the new medic changes that Jaymz already posted about (limited 1 medic per squad, can only revive a player once every 60 seconds) I think the medics revive will be sorted out to avoid any "medic spam" that could be happening in game currently (though I rarely see it myself).

By decreasing a spawn time to be low or non-existent, gameplay wise as well as player behavior wise that means waiting any period of time for a medic to revive you is pretty much pointless, as you could probably spawn in and get back to where your squad is, faster than waiting for the medic (in the majority of our maps anyways since we have few 4km maps). So the logical answer to this would then to simply remove revive as its not realistic, but that has some major implications:

- 1 or 2 medics per squad (currently the norm) would turn into 1 or 2 medics per team, and they would almost always be using the kit to heal themselves when they get shot rather than helping any teammates. I fear Medics would simply turn into an assault class cause they can take a few more bullets and keep going (like what they are in most games).

- no squad revive means there is much less encouragement to move and fight as a squad/unit. For me personally, I know I can fight more effectively as an individual, sneaking and flanking an enemy position, its just easier with 1 guy to be sneaky and come in on the right angle. But what happens when this is the regular behavior of most players on the battlefield? 64 players moving individually, sneaking and flanking on their own accord - it means team deathmatch. Attempting to use some kind of real life tactics like suppression, fire and movement, fireteams, will more than likely be disastrous and just plain not effective if revives are out of the equation. Now its debateable whether this is already the norm on most servers (players just running around randomly like team deathmatch), but certainly the current system ALLOWS real life tactics and organization to be largely successful if used at the right moments. I feel if the changes above were implemented (no RP, low or no respawn time, no revive) then using real life tactics and organization skills would not be much benefit.

the goal is that a player never sees an enemy spawn in combat.

even at 250-300m, you would still see players spawning on most maps, in order to remove this completely, you would need to increase the number to 700-800m, which would mean most firebases are never spawnable, but I get your point and I agree, you should generally not be seeing enemy players materialize as its a big time immersion buster.


Now I've already stated that I'm all for removing RP's but keeping revives and firebase spawns. I do also agree that the range which firebase spawns need to be disable should be greater than it currently is.

However I feel that the current spawn times are not an issue, and removing spawn times completely or greatly will just create further complications and problems. As of right now, when on foot as infantry you are laying wounded on the ground anyways, hoping for a medic to revive (and in a good squad unless your all wiped out, you usually will get that revive).

If we use your example CAS and do the following:
- remove RP from PR
- delete spawnpoint from firebase if enemy (even just 1) enter a 250-300m radius
- remove spawntime

We would see ALOT more main base raping and near main base ambushes going on, as there would be in many servers, that would be the only place for respawn and half the team would be hoofing it. Each team gets bored of getting killed when they are at the objective, and goes to the very predictable spot that you will ALWAYS have targets (and easy targets at that) - the enemy main. Although as long as a decent transport squad exists it would not be a huge issue.

I don't see a big issue with the current 30s respawn, I have never alt-tabbed out to wait for a 30s spawn time (on a slow computer CAS, alt tabbing would actually take longer to get out of game and back in due to the loading time on your RAM). Also I don't know too many players that do this - your the first I have ever heard of alt tabbing during 30s respawn period. In my squad, when someone is hit they are usually revived fairly quickly or are using mumble so we can locate where they went down. If they alt tabbed, they would be a liability as they would be revived and not be able to move to cover. If my whole squad is wiped out, then they would be listening to orders during the 30s timer as to where they will be spawning, what kits and what the new strategy is as well as disseminating any new orders coming from command, as well as a quick AAR on what went wrong and what could have been done better, as well as receiving any of the taunts they would get from the enemy that have wiped us out and now over our dead bodies If you just cant bare the boring nature of all that information, then I recommend stepping up to command cause handling 8+ conversations and planning tactics would probalby be a cake walk for you Although I quite understand not everyone does the above mentioned things and is probably an exception rather than standard.

Only times I will alt tab out is if its a boring game of kashan with only 20v20 or if its one of the small maps that I'm just waiting to be over so we can move on to the next map (but then I alt tab even when not dead cause its boring ).

Also I've not heard many people complaining about the spawn times as its prety much become the norm (as romagnolo stated in OP).

[Dr Rank]

I'll throw this one out there. How about removing RP's for conventional forces for all the reasons fuzz etc have mentioned, but give RP's to the Insurgents/let the Taliban keep theres? The RP's for these OPFOR forces help to simulate greater numbers and allow for realistic tactics i.e. surrounding the BLUFOR and keeping up an almost constant offensive, which is realistic in an insurgency. When it kicks off Insurgents generally keep pouring in for hours. Because the ground on which they fight is generally familiar territory they are able to use that to their advantage, and they are general able to outflank and surround BLUFOR forces with considerable ease, both in Afghanistan, and in recent Iraq. I also think that the OPFOR spawn time should either be less that in currently is, or just not increase with every death. The goal is to create a realistic asymetrical balance, and reducing the OPFOR spawn gives the impression of greater numbers which is generally something that BLUFOR forces come up against when fighting insurgents, and in terms of gameplay this is balanced by the BLUFOR having superior firepower.

My only major concern about removing spawning options for BLUFOR i.e. rally points, is that it increases the liklihood of conventional OPFOR players setting up a perimeter around the FBs and indulging in heavy doses of spawn raping...

[CAS_117]

oh that's a lot of words.

This is really only an issue when you die in a vehicle IMO.

As an infantry in current PR, the majority (almost all times) when you are shot, you are brought to a wounded state. This is not a black screen but you can still see limited around you, so you are still "in" the game world, just wounded.

And I don't wanna get side tracked so @ all the medic stuff, medics reviving needs to go. Healing is fine, but I'd rather have rally point bags do healing and ammo giving instead. That's all.

If you really are getting bored waiting 30 seconds on the ground for someone to revive you, I think your going to be bored in several other areas in PR such as: defending a position thats not under attack yet, building a firebase/defenses, walking a long distance, a long car ride, a long heli ride, waiting as a gunner in a vehicle, waiting for your squad to get ready, helping someone setup their microphone, waiting to get healed etc etc. I know what your trying to say (Black Screen = Boring and a Game supposed to = entertaining) but I think if you cant handle a 30s down time as a wounded soldier, then I think you probably may have mild ADHD and will probably find most of the game immensely boring Just my perspective... its a slower paced game, I dont think longer spawn times are the answer but I dont think NO RESPAWN is a good solution either.

Ok well that theory is just plain wrong because I defend pretty much every time I squad lead, and even sometimes when I'm not. This is mostly because I don't like depending on rally points, so defending is much safer in a battlefield where you have to kill each enemy 3 times without dying to win a firefight. Defending also means I am closer to firebases, which levels the playing field somewhat.

I have no problem with the game being slower paced, but I would like to play the actual game. A black screen is simply not playing anything unless checking my hotmail is a game. But I know that defending is questionable because if you don't attack, the enemies rally point will stay up, so now that their squad has memorized your positions you are probably screwed.

The ACE mod for ArmA does this really well, fading in and out, and the ability to drag players and the direct VON make this completely immersive and not tedious in any way whatsoever, you really do feel like your a combat casualty and can hear your squad mates yelling over the gun fire and getting to your position and dragging you back into cover, waiting for the medic to get to you. There might be a video out there of this, but its VERY good for immersion, and I think would be infinitely better than just taking a bullet and instantly warping back to mainbase or firebase, which I think personally would be a big immersion breaker and bring the game back to an arcade level. No, we shouldn't punish players to the point where they are bored out of their minds, but I DO think that players should see a bit more of the consequences of getting shot and not simply be on their merry way 2 seconds after they are killed. I don't see this helping player behavior, only attracting more mindless shooter mentality.

I don't really play arma much (its very unfinished) so I don't know what you're talking about. But how is having players appear at main and out of the firefight and taking transport back mindless shooter mentality? What would that make automatically reappearing out of a pile of rucksacks during said firefight? When you die you are now your squads replacement soldier, not deux-ex-machinaing your way back to the war fully armed, with the enemies previous position memorized. That is what people do. Just die, remember where you died, flank said position, and kill the guy who may or may not have moved in the last 45 seconds. I can't think of anything less immersive than having to watch the scoreboard to calculate the probability that when I knife a firebase a guy is going to appear and blow my brains out.

- no squad revive means there is much less encouragement to move and fight as a squad/unit. For me personally, I know I can fight more effectively as an individual, sneaking and flanking an enemy position, its just easier with 1 guy to be sneaky and come in on the right angle. But what happens when this is the regular behavior of most players on the battlefield? 64 players moving individually, sneaking and flanking on their own accord - it means team deathmatch.

Well you gotta ask yourself, if its ok for you, shouldn't it be ok for everyone else? I honestly don't understand the "team deathmatch" analogy though. What you're describing sounds like the smartest way to play PR atm for various reasons as I have stated before which include the short view distance (inability to find), the deficiencies of support weapons (inability to fix), and finally the lack of much or any fire support (inability to finish).

Attempting to use some kind of real life tactics like suppression, fire and movement, fireteams, will more than likely be disastrous and just plain not effective if revives are out of the equation. Now its debateable whether this is already the norm on most servers (players just running around randomly like team deathmatch), but certainly the current system ALLOWS real life tactics and organization to be largely successful if used at the right moments. I feel if the changes above were implemented (no RP, low or no respawn time, no revive) then using real life tactics and organization skills would not be much benefit.

I can tell you with certainty that after months of not setting rally points that hearing that spawning at firebases will remove tactics is laughable. Not having a nearby spawn means you are inherently more careful. Real life tactics become massively beneficial though (because they all revolve around the fact that getting killed is permanent and should be avoided) , and I generally have a fair amount of success. Rally points spawns inhibit any tactics from being used other than:

*Place RP outside of flag
*Run at enemy
*Die
*Respawn
*Run at enemy
*Fire full auto
*Kill a guy
*Turn corner
*Die

And after spending months in PRT teaching my squad the assie peelback and single envelopements I know that really, all of the effort is wasted because the best "tactic" is to continuously charge at the enemy until you kill them via wave rushing. There is no reason for tactics when you can just pop out of the ground 70m away. If players have to move themselves into wherever they go then there is now ***responsibility*** for their situation.

In current PR, I think its safe to assume you'll wait anywhere from 15-90 seconds in the wounded state, hoping that your medic can revive you. I've waited to nearly the full 3 minutes many times and got revived and was happy about it I know many people won't do this and hate the idea of waiting around for others to help them, but I love going a whole round without dying and this was one of those rare cases hehe Just an example from a different perspective on the spawn/wounded timer.

Ok see this is where we differ fuzz is because you don't die the whole round because you get revived, I don't die the whole round because I didn't get shot.

We would see ALOT more main base raping and near main base ambushes going on, as there would be in many servers, that would be the only place for respawn and half the team would be hoofing it. Each team gets bored of getting killed when they are at the objective, and goes to the very predictable spot that you will ALWAYS have targets (and easy targets at that) - the enemy main. Although as long as a decent transport squad exists it would not be a huge issue.

Base raping us up to admins. On the other hand, if a squad is that far behind enemy lines (they had to walk there in one piece mind you, because they can't just respawn on an RP), then losing a guy and getting a reinforcement, or running out of ammo would be a serious problem.

Base raping is a problem usually when it's a squad that set a rally point behind a rock 100m away from your main and by the time you've killed enough of them to get close enough that the rounds almost over. And this is why removing spawns on RP's is realistic because supply lines actually almost have a point, and are more logical.

The reason that transport squads don't really last long is because they are needed only until every squad has a rally point set up, rather than constantly. Now they're stuck with no squad the rest of the round and no one to transport.

I don't see a big issue with the current 30s respawn, I have never alt-tabbed out to wait for a 30s spawn time (on a slow computer CAS, alt tabbing would actually take longer to get out of game and back in due to the loading time on your RAM). Also I don't know too many players that do this - your the first I have ever heard of alt tabbing during 30s respawn period.

When did it become understood that annoying bratty rambos were so impatient that 90 seconds was enough to scare them into honest tactical gameplay? These people have computers as capable of alt-tabbing in game as the rest of us. They can fap-fap-fap to porn during respawn as much as you and me.

I also have to say that I never considered spawn times to be any sort of effective punishment mechanism, just more of a nuisance and pointless annoyance that can be remedied by alt+tabbing or doing something else in r/l during the time, while stuff like minimap removal, auto-spotting removal, mobile spawn removal etc. actually impacted the game.

Meh, more spawn time just = more get food/browser time.

maybe with enough time we'd go get some exercise and come back

Cas is right imo, Longer spawntimes just mean you have more time to look at the internet or do something else. You could make it 5 minutes to "Punish" the player but you can't make them set there while they wait. No matter how long you make spawn times it wont matter.

The spawn time is a big issue not because of the length but because it is so pointless. The only reason to have the 30+ second time is to punish players for dying, and I think that having to walk or transport yourself is a fair enough consequence for dying.

But if players were so keen on spawn times, then why did we license the server code?

In my squad, when someone is hit they are usually revived fairly quickly or are using mumble so we can locate where they went down. If they alt tabbed, they would be a liability as they would be revived and not be able to move to cover. If my whole squad is wiped out, then they would be listening to orders during the 30s timer as to where they will be spawning, what kits and what the new strategy is as well as disseminating any new orders coming from command, as well as a quick AAR on what went wrong and what could have been done better, as well as receiving any of the taunts they would get from the enemy that have wiped us out and now over our dead bodies If you just cant bare the boring nature of all that information, then I recommend stepping up to command cause handling 8+ conversations and planning tactics would probalby be a cake walk for you Although I quite understand not everyone does the above mentioned things and is probably an exception rather than standard.

Well that's all fine but I don't understand why none of that can be done while everyone is alive? Especially where to spawn, because when I SL I am often the fourth to last person to get shot. Everything except the AAR I guess, but well there's plenty of time to discuss that at the base or firebase (if its secured).

I mean there is this whole pretense that your squad got wiped out. How about we give players fewer features focused on AFTER they die and more features focused on BEFORE? So much of the game has become focused on what to do after dying that I think we we're playing Left 4 Dead.

And I get worried when I hear some devs saying there should be two medics per squad??? I am sorry but since when was dying a tactic? Why not take all this effort put into the game for dead players and put it into staying alive?

Look back to 0.5 when we had APC spawns, rally points, and squad leader spawns. Players decided they didn't like the spawn times and decided to lower the timers until it became necessary to force admins to accept it. I mean what is wrong with this picture? The problem wasn't the short spawn times, they only aggravated the addition of 2 mobile spawn points that were easy to exploit. People just want to play the game uninterrupted.

Do we love close spawn points that much? Do we love a black screen that much? Vehicles already spawn from main base (that light vehicle spawn on firebases was funny but annoying in tight spaces), so why can't players just spawn from the maps insertion point, and the subsequent outposts they build?

Also I've not heard many people complaining about the spawn times as its prety much become the norm (as romagnolo stated in OP).

That's probably because most people would rather not get called ADHD.

I would be the exception.

[Alex6714]

I'll throw this one out there. How about removing RP's for conventional forces for all the reasons fuzz etc have mentioned, but give RP's to the Insurgents/let the Taliban keep theres?

This is funny,m because I was actually thinking about this. It is a good idea because the taliban and such have many tunnels etc that they will pop out of that probably can´t be done except with an extremely dedicated mapper and modeler. Edit: Not that the PR ones aren´t of course, but I think of it the same way of trying to code fastropes and rotor collisions on helicopterx.



Anyway, let me propose a situation.


- Rallies only give ammo, no respawn. (You actually group up on them to resuply from your rucksacks). This would be your lay up point.

- No revives. Neither respawning nor reviving is realistic, but respawning is just "coming in as another reinforcement", whereas reviving is magically coming to life from the hand of god.

- Spawn times 15 seconds or less (up to 30 from insurgents, who have their rallies).

- Firebases can only be built withing a certain radius of a friendly flag, and that spawn disappears when the flag is taken of the radius with which the firebase is in, or a certain number of enemy are withing a short distance to it. Would probably need to vary map depending. No longer can trucks get past the frontline and somehow build a firebase in your own territory 3 flas away from the fight zone, just to camp. (Muttrah and the docks are a prime example of this). You are also setting up base as you move further along the front, not random ones all over the map.



Would this be the downfall of all the teamwork in project reality, just because you can´t be revived?

People might behave more realistically if they will actually die from getting shot and have a long way to the front.

Medics still heal, you get shot once or twice you better hope you are with your squad so you can be healed, rather than 3 minutes away.

Tactics come into play more because you have to think more about what you can do and not die while attacking.

A more team wide teamwork comes into play, rather than the leet squads and their medics, as you have to interact with transport squads and maybe tag along with others to get to your own if you die. You don´t have your medic to revive you plus your rally to spawn on so you can keep to your own little world.

Saying main bases will get raped more is not really meaning anything, thats what server admins are there for, and remember, these guys are going to have a hard time getting to your main base, not to mention the amount they face as you can almost only spawn there and if they die they can´t respawn close.

I think the combination of all this would make it feel more like war while playing, not paintball or airsoft with medics and with the firebases withing a radius of friendly flags and no rallies you also establish more of a front to the fighting, which even with AAS can get a little random.

[Scot]

For the record chaps, with the new xfire, there is no need to Alt Tab to get out of game and watch porn! You can do it in game!

I think that it is a fine balance between the two arguments, I do like the idea of it not being a spawn, but it being an ammo and heal place... I watch with interest...

[Cpt. Trips]

- Firebases can only be built withing a certain radius of a friendly flag, and that spawn disappears when the flag is taken of the radius with which the firebase is in, or a certain number of enemy are withing a short distance to it. Would probably need to vary map depending. No longer can trucks get past the frontline and somehow build a firebase in your own territory 3 flas away from the fight zone, just to camp. (Muttrah and the docks are a prime example of this). You are also setting up base as you move further along the front, not random ones all over the map.

But isn't this sometimes a legitimate strat?

[Alex6714]

I believe you should secure the area before you can set up a base there.

That said barracuda is a different type of map, that could possibly do with one flag being grey at the start, the other one in chinese hands.


However, maybe instead of in a certain radius of your flag, outside a certain radius of their flag, but I still think how it is now is not quite right.

[Cpt. Trips]

I think the point underlying that example is that players should be given as much strategic and tactical freedom as they can. Innovation can be an important aspect of the fun of the game and also in your team's victory. Obviously FBs in the middle of nowhere are completely unrealistic and can detract from the gameplay, so I guess "there ought to be limits to freedom".


One kerazy idea that probably doesn't have a lot in it: FBs can be built a certain distance from the edge of the map and also within a certain radius from one another. This would represent a new insertion point for troops other than their main and also another logistical chain, completely apart from the conventional flags.

[fuzzhead]

I don't wanna get side tracked so @ all the medic stuff, medics reviving needs to go. Healing is fine, but I'd rather have rally point bags do healing and ammo giving instead. That's all.

Okay fair enough, leave the medic revive discussion for a different thread, but needless to say I disagree with you, reviving is a critically important element in PR and I think removing it would bring the game to a much more deathmatch like state. Even games like ACE ArmA have a revive system, and seeing that game played with revives and without I can tell you teamwork is increased greatly with a revive system. I wouldn't be against trying PR without respawns for a release, but I am pretty sure that the result would be mostly negative in the fact that squad cohesion would be much lower than current.

Rallypoints giving ammo is bag idea IMO. You either have them give unlimited ammo slowly (allowing HAT/AA/Sniper/etc to easily camp an area forever without needing resupply) or you give them limited ammo but this can be easily exploited by simply placing a new rallypoint when the current one is out of ammo, then you need a whole new list of complicated rules to make sure that dont happen. Also healing at an RP I think is a bad idea as it automates a process that should require some time and somewhat urgency from other players.

I have no problem with the game being slower paced, but I would like to play the actual game. A black screen is simply not playing anything unless checking my hotmail is a game. But I know that defending is questionable because if you don't attack, the enemies rally point will stay up, so now that their squad has memorized your positions you are probably screwed.

And like I've said, very rarely as infantry will you see a black screen, as most of the time you will be on a wounded screen awaiting a medic if you were shot. Black screen maybe accounts for a 10% of infantry deaths?

But how is having players appear at main and out of the firefight and taking transport back mindless shooter mentality?

Like I've previously said, appearing at main base and fire bases I have no argument with, but forcing them to appear instantly or near instantly is where I have a problem.
Of course the theory of it is sound, when playing the game I want to be playing the game, not staring dead at a blank screen. But I dont think your taking into account what the general player mentality is like. Usually when I think of an idea, my first thoughts are "now how will this be abused / misused when introduced". I think the actual gameplay would be quite different than what your thinking of.

Right now, a player is shot and then he is there on the ground with his squad, and is there to witness either his squads demise or their success in winning the firefight where you were wounded. If successful, he usually is revived and brought back to a fighting condition, if they fail then he is regrouping back with the whole squad at a point the SL designates.

If there is no timer and as soon as your shot your immediately warped to your spawn point, a couple things are wrong with this:
- no time to select your spawn point since you just got shot, you are spawned at the last spawn location you had selected, which may or may not be anywhere near your squads AO.
- once spawned in, waiting back at base for your squad to die and regroup we know does not usually ever happen, the player will get in the first available vehicle and make his way into the battlefield - like you said, you want to play the damn game, not sit around idle all day at base waiting for your squad to die. if there is no vehicle he will probably start walking. Of course a disciplined squad can prevent this, but I have a feeling with this kind of spawn behavior you will have a much harder time to have a organized disciplined squad than currently (see below)
- having such a brutal combat environment (die and immediately spawn back at base) means as a squad leader, you need to have your shit EXTREMELY well together if you intend to run a well disciplined squad that follows orders. If you slip up one second and get someone killed, the guy that got killed is much less likely to follow your orders in the future. There is no saving grace, he got killed and its your fault, and damned if he wants to walk all the way back from base again just to get killed again because you gave him a poor order. With the current revive system, its much easier to gain the trust of your squad. This is very important in a public game as you may not have ever played with the guys in your squad before and getting them to trust your judgment and follow your orders is usually a difficult task already in the current game, but many players are successful at this.
- on a typical server with little organization, you will still see "streaming" players coming one by one from the spawnpoints, because they are not going to wait to regroup and will move out soon after spawning. This happens now already with rallypoints, it will be less severe since the spawnpoints are not as close, but this solution does not fix the fundamental problem.
- there is no time to think about what just happened, why you died, what did you do wrong, what should you have done differently. there is no time for the SL to tell you what you did wrong, you just know you died but it doesn't matter because your back in game and going to the front again. Learning from mistakes I think is a fundamental way of getting better at a game, and without any pause, there is no time for reflection and that's why I think it will bring a deathmatch mentality, not just to the individual but at the squad level too.

What would that make automatically reappearing out of a pile of rucksacks during said firefight?

Read again I wasn't referring to rallypoints, I'm in support of removing RP, I was talking about having no revive / no spawn time.

Trying to respond to most of your replies but they usually tie back to something that you don't really mention at all but is completely relevant to the discussion, about removing revives.

I honestly don't understand the "team deathmatch" analogy though. What you're describing sounds like the smartest way to play PR atm for various reasons as I have stated before which include the short view distance (inability to find), the deficiencies of support weapons (inability to fix), and finally the lack of much or any fire support (inability to finish).

What I mean by team deathmatch is that although yes, there is a team, and that yes you have a squad and are attacking the other team, there is no cohesion, no group tactics or planning, there is just Kill The Bad Guys. Communication playing little part in it, and a general feeling that by grouping and moving together, your more vulnerable and can be killed easier, so its best when your alone as your more mobile, stealthy and deadly. This is a common attitude amongst alot of FPS players, and something that is kind of rare in PR. I don't believe this is a realistic attitude to adopt for infantry tactics nor is it good for community building, teamwork or in my opinion general fun of the mod.
Although you mention some deficiencies, things are continuously improving however I don't think these deficiencies mean that using solid tactics is useless. However I think your suggestion with no respawn time WOULD create a large rift making it impossible to employ these tactics realistically with a public group of players.

I can tell you with certainty that after months of not setting rally points that hearing that spawning at firebases will remove tactics is laughable.

I never said that, I've said that spawning on RP can be removed and it would IMPROVE tactical gameplay, not detract from it.

And after spending months in PRT teaching my squad the assie peelback and single envelopements I know that really, all of the effort is wasted because the best "tactic" is to continuously charge at the enemy until you kill them via wave rushing. There is no reason for tactics when you can just pop out of the ground 70m away. If players have to move themselves into wherever they go then there is now ***responsibility*** for their situation.

I Agree that it can be frustrating, but use of tactics in current PR i think have some good use however usually must be very conservative and you need to be prepared to fall back ALOT. When fighting an organized enemy it can be really intense and fun, but fighting the disorganized zombie horde usually means you are continuously pulling back and fighting the whole way, and then suddenly the enemy runs out of tickets and you realize you had few causualties while the enemy just literally rushed you the whole time. That kind of gameplay can be fun at times but it does get really competitive and doesn't hold candle to fighting an organised force (With multiple squads working in unison using some tactic).

Ok see this is where we differ fuzz is because you don't die the whole round because you get revived, I don't die the whole round because I didn't get shot.

Well by saying I've gone rounds that I haven't died I want trying to boast about how awesome I was. I'm sure most forum goers here have done it, and I think most agree its an awesome feeling
But to say that someone can regularly play the current PR in a full 64 player server and NEVER GET HIT, I think this is a bit of BS. Not saying you haven't done it but that it is extremely rare. The engagement ranges / BF2 limited flora&fauna system / amount of hostiles in the AO means in PR, you are bound to get shot at a lot and probably hit. Playing extremely conservatively as a sniper may make this possible, but leading a full infantry squad and taking orders from a coherent CO, I would say it is extremely unlikely to go a round without taking a hit.
Speaking realistically, if 2 forces of equal size and firepower were to meet, you can damn well be sure there would be lots of casualties. Having little or no casualties in PR I don't think would be either realistic or very fun - someone has got to die in the game.

Base raping us up to admins. On the other hand, if a squad is that far behind enemy lines (they had to walk there in one piece mind you, because they can't just respawn on an RP), then losing a guy and getting a reinforcement, or running out of ammo would be a serious problem.

Base raping is a problem usually when it's a squad that set a rally point behind a rock 100m away from your main and by the time you've killed enough of them to get close enough that the rounds almost over. And this is why removing spawns on RP's is realistic because supply lines actually almost have a point, and are more logical.

Server Admins can only do so much, and making the mainbase such a tempting target means their jobs would just grow extremely strenuous over night. We've been trying to decrease the stress on the server admins by moving the spawnpoints away from mainbase capture zones whenever possible, and wherever feasible adding a large dome of death so its not even possible to get close to the mainbase. However its not perfect, not all maps were designed with this in mind. Also you advocated giving RP ammo earlier, which would make camping these mainbases much easier.

Any server admin will tell you, PR is an absolute ***** to admin, harder than many games for multiple reasons. Generally level of teamplay and cooperation is much higher in PR, which means players expect smacktards to be dealt with faster than a typical game server. There is no kill messages or easy to verify the enemy, making base raping, fog hacks and other bad things harder for an admin to find. Ill let an admin speak up about the troubles of admining, but trust me we don't want to give them anymore work than we have to, they have their hands full.

The reason that transport squads don't really last long is because they are needed only until every squad has a rally point set up, rather than constantly. Now they're stuck with no squad the rest of the round and no one to transport.

Agreed, removing RP would make transport squads more rewarding, crucial for gameplay, and alot of fun for the guys doing transport. I think overall, RP removal would have a very positive effect on transport vehicle usage.

The spawn time is a big issue not because of the length but because it is so pointless. The only reason to have the 30+ second time is to punish players for dying, and I think that having to walk or transport yourself is a fair enough consequence for dying.

There is other reasons for a 30+ second spawn time.

- allows time for mistakes to sink in and for a player to think about mistakes, instead of instant "reward" of spawning back at base and possibly grabbing a better vehicle or kit. Suicide would be an extremely common tactic to quickly "warp around the map" with a low spawn time
- all sorts of problems with the insurgency mode and asymmetrical factions that depend on different spawn times.
- allows for revives to be possible and desirable (another debate I suppose)
- some other factors which I know are there but cant think of right now, will add if I remember.

But if players were so keen on spawn times, then why did we license the server code?

Spawn times go beyond just player spawn times, also vehicle spawn times and other issues. Also server admins are highly competitive and will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to make their server popular. BF2 players flock to low spawn time instant gratification, so it doesn't really support your argument and should be left out of the discussion I think.

Well that's all fine but I don't understand why none of that can be done while everyone is alive? Especially where to spawn, because when I SL I am often the fourth to last person to get shot.

If you have 3 seconds to spawn for example, and 3 of your men have died but you live for a minute longer by staying in your hole like you (realistically) would, of course those 3 players would have already spawned, telling them to "hold their spawn" is no different than having the spawn time in, in the first place if it was such a problem. So the option is to suicide if they all spawned in different areas?

I mean there is this whole pretense that your squad got wiped out. How about we give players fewer features focused on AFTER they die and more features focused on BEFORE? So much of the game has become focused on what to do after dying that I think we we're playing Left 4 Dead.

Explain in more detail please..

And I get worried when I hear some devs saying there should be two medics per squad??? I am sorry but since when was dying a tactic? Why not take all this effort put into the game for dead players and put it into staying alive?

Indeed 2 medics in a squad right now is a common tactic that is somewhat successful, we've already mentioned the fact that this will be changing in future versions. I think also that talking about medics IS talking about players staying alive, since reviving and healing is 2 aspects of PR that keeps players in the battlefield and alive?

Look back to 0.5 when we had APC spawns, rally points, and squad leader spawns. Players decided they didn't like the spawn times and decided to lower the timers until it became necessary to force admins to accept it. I mean what is wrong with this picture? The problem wasn't the short spawn times, they only aggravated the addition of 2 mobile spawn points that were easy to exploit. People just want to play the game uninterrupted.

The game and community was ALOT different back then (were talking 2 years ago). I don't think the argument that "the players decided they didn't like the spawn times" applies, especially considering majority on these forums voiced their concern over these servers that behaved nearly identical to vBF2, which I think is one thing I think we both can agree don't want to happen to PR.

Do we love close spawn points that much? Do we love a black screen that much? Vehicles already spawn from main base (that light vehicle spawn on firebases was funny but annoying in tight spaces), so why can't players just spawn from the maps insertion point, and the subsequent outposts they build?

The only thing Im disagreeing here is that the 30 second wait, is actually not that long at all and it does have a purpose other than as punishment.

That's probably because most people would rather not get called ADHD.

Well its not necesarily a bad thing (I think I have mild ADHD ) but I just feel its hard to justify that the 30s spawn time is contributing to a negative play style.

[Deer]

If there would not be rallypoints, 90% of players would solo and spawn to firebase/main. Spawning is the ONLY factor that keeps 90% of players doing teamwork. With squad leader spawnpoint gameplay for players like that was working extremely well, every monkey and turtle did teamwork no matter what was going in their heads. Squads needed only 1 person to make the squad a good squad who followed commander's/squadleader's orders, but now with rallypoints game got alot harder and thats why teamwork is not working so well anymore, now you need 3 non-monkeys as squad members to get the squad's spawnpoint and teamwork working.

Yes rallypoint increases teamwork within squad to get the spawnpoint up, but in overall gameplay rallypoint reduces teamwork when compared to squad leader spawn. Because getting the squadspawn up with the rallypoint system is too hard for big amount of players. With Squad leader spawn system squadspawn was always up automaticly if squad leader was alive, if squad leader died, the squad died.

-Now if squad's spawn, no matter what sort of spaw it is as long as its squad's own spawn, is removed, 90% of players wont have reason to work together.
-With squad leader spawnpoint system EVERYONE did teamwork automaticly.
-With rallypoint spawn system teamwork within squad is better but in the big picture it works only on half of the squads, half of the squads are fooked up most of the time. This also depends on what server you play.


The point what im saying in short is this:
Teamwork = Squad's Spawn

[Cpt. Trips]

I believe you should secure the area before you can set up a base there.

That said barracuda is a different type of map, that could possibly do with one flag being grey at the start, the other one in chinese hands.


However, maybe instead of in a certain radius of your flag, outside a certain radius of their flag, but I still think how it is now is not quite right.

How about spawns on FBs are only possible in range of a flag?

[CAS_117]

@ Fuzzhead, I've gotta run to class but I'll think some more and pickup again in a few hrs.

[Threedroogs]

I'll throw this one out there. How about removing RP's for conventional forces for all the reasons fuzz etc have mentioned, but give RP's to the Insurgents/let the Taliban keep theres? The RP's for these OPFOR forces help to simulate greater numbers and allow for realistic tactics i.e. surrounding the BLUFOR and keeping up an almost constant offensive, which is realistic in an insurgency. When it kicks off Insurgents generally keep pouring in for hours. Because the ground on which they fight is generally familiar territory they are able to use that to their advantage, and they are general able to outflank and surround BLUFOR forces with considerable ease, both in Afghanistan, and in recent Iraq. I also think that the OPFOR spawn time should either be less that in currently is, or just not increase with every death. The goal is to create a realistic asymetrical balance, and reducing the OPFOR spawn gives the impression of greater numbers which is generally something that BLUFOR forces come up against when fighting insurgents, and in terms of gameplay this is balanced by the BLUFOR having superior firepower.

My only major concern about removing spawning options for BLUFOR i.e. rally points, is that it increases the liklihood of conventional OPFOR players setting up a perimeter around the FBs and indulging in heavy doses of spawn raping...

that's a really interesting idea!

i dont think concentrated battles on FOBs would be a bad thing (if there were enough incentives to defend them...like no more RPs or FOBs being worth tickets or whatever else). in fact, i think it could be really awesome to have to defend forward bases like they were actual bases, instead of just using them as safety nets for the RPs.

also...everyone keeps talking about the death timer as punishment towards the dead. i look at it as a bonus to the killer. i definitely dont want to be spawning in 2 seconds after i die. i like the breaks between lives. the 10 second spawn timer in vBF2 made me crazy. it would also hurt teamwork a lot to instant spawn, as fuzzhead said very nicely.

[=Romagnolo=]

I'd like to know what is possible to do to bring back the fear feeling to the mod, wich I rarelly feel playing last times...

[atshii]

Very nice discussion, lots of interesting points of views.

I also feel that RPs are not perfect, players are taking big risks because RP gives an easy and fast way back to action, but I don't think simply taking them away is a good solution either.

Wouldn't taking out RPs be basically what insurgency teams are now using? (albeit insurgents have easier time making hideouts when compared to firebases)

The teamwork and VOIP use are in my experience much lower with insurgents, when compared to the opposing team using RPs. Taliban faction with RPs sees more teamplay also, so the RPs seem to have a big role for making teamplay valuable.

[Rudd]

If Dr_Rank's suggestion was implemented, we would definately need to drasticly rebalance the insurgency maps imo. (though I actually like the suggestion)