A serious discussion about weapon deviation in 0.85

[SocketMan]

• Firefights will not be real or fun, as long as everyone is a scoped rifleman, and not a machine gun.
• If the battle is not about important ground, you cannot have a realistic round.
• As long as your bullets go farther than you see, you cannot plan and fight realistically.
• If you want the battle slowed down a bit, just let them dig their own fighting pits.

Sry I just got back from "Reading and Composition 114.3"...

1.
No scopes for Insurgents -only they have fun ?

2.
Few maps (Jabal is the best example) have important ground away from any CP,
controlling which guaranties a victory.

3.
Bullets do go further then you see,weather in RL or PR
this can also be used to your team's advantage with Beyond Visual Range fire
(APC's/ZPU4/MG/Zis3)

4.
Dig in their own fighting pits?
Can be used as graves after words- I suppose


For people saying it's impossible to fight VS OPFOR in CQB that is correct
as long as you have a scoped weapon.Every insurgent tactic is (more or less)
based on trying to get the BLUEFOR commit to CQB (Close Quarters Battle).
Want to use the scope -keep you distance.Insurgents have no scopes, of course
they will win in CQB. Full auto AK's that finally work properly can do a lot of damage
if you get to close.Keep off 150 meters and you're safe.

At least no one has to use a scoped G3 VS Insurgents in CQB - you better of
with a knife.Speaking of which: can't shoot a guy 1 meter away?
(cause the guy is running or jumping or whatever)
use the damn knife.

[Jigsaw]

CAS_117 you are like god and I miss you, come back to us in Nato 2

[Jaymz]

Very good post CAS, I've replied elsewhere

[Truism]

I can't aim.

Post fix'd.


Edit: CAS nailed it.

[Tartantyco]

-Is it possible to make taking damage disable your ability to return fire for a short while?

[ralfidude]

The above sounds feasible.


Deviation is still a mystery to me. But the way it is now is the best, i wouldnt change it.



Still, take for example this short story that happened last night, which happens ALOT.

I lay down and go into my sights with a brit gun as insurgent, i take aim and wait for a guy who knows im there. He makes the move to pop up from his cover and as soon as he does he takes one shot and kills me. I took about 2-3 shots that missed.

I was laying down... he was standing up.... distance was about 15meters. Whats up with that?

My sights were dead on by the way, at that range theres no way i should miss... but deviation while me layign down seems to be up??? Higher than his when hes standing up??? what?


By the way, i saw the bullets fly to the side, not one of them hit him. You can tell when u hit cuz their gun goes down or their body flinches for a fraction of a second. Plus you see the puff of smoke.

[Tirak]

The above sounds feasible.


Deviation is still a mystery to me. But the way it is now is the best, i wouldnt change it.



Still, take for example this short story that happened last night, which happens ALOT.

I lay down and go into my sights with a brit gun as insurgent, i take aim and wait for a guy who knows im there. He makes the move to pop up from his cover and as soon as he does he takes one shot and kills me. I took about 2-3 shots that missed.

I was laying down... he was standing up.... distance was about 15meters. Whats up with that?

My sights were dead on by the way, at that range theres no way i should miss... but deviation while me layign down seems to be up??? Higher than his when hes standing up??? what?


By the way, i saw the bullets fly to the side, not one of them hit him. You can tell when u hit cuz their gun goes down or their body flinches for a fraction of a second. Plus you see the puff of smoke.

When you go prone, the area in front you can hit is much smaller, however that area is mostly your head BLUFOR weapons lack stopping power so it takes a few shots, whereas an AK to the face does not.

[Skodz]

I feel like 0.85 deviation is the best one PR had so far.

[Spec]

The above sounds feasible.


Deviation is still a mystery to me. But the way it is now is the best, i wouldnt change it.



Still, take for example this short story that happened last night, which happens ALOT.

I lay down and go into my sights with a brit gun as insurgent, i take aim and wait for a guy who knows im there. He makes the move to pop up from his cover and as soon as he does he takes one shot and kills me. I took about 2-3 shots that missed.

I was laying down... he was standing up.... distance was about 15meters. Whats up with that?

My sights were dead on by the way, at that range theres no way i should miss... but deviation while me layign down seems to be up??? Higher than his when hes standing up??? what?


By the way, i saw the bullets fly to the side, not one of them hit him. You can tell when u hit cuz their gun goes down or their body flinches for a fraction of a second. Plus you see the puff of smoke.

Might have been hitbox problems, or just bad luck. I don't see why deviation while laying down would be higher...

Maybe you moved/lagged a bit?

After all, deviation is just random chances, and the dice just rolled worse for you probably.

[ralfidude]

WEll thiing is i didnt move at all, i was laying still and had sight up. As soon as he popped up i shot at him, it should have been exceptionally good hitting average, but out of 2 bullets fired, 0 hit.

And he got up, shot once and killed. HIS deviation should be have been much higher than mine.

I get that he head shotted me, i dont have a problem with that.

But this was a blue on blue gun fight.

i had bluefor gun with insurgent, and he was blufor with blufor gun.

When going straight up from prone position, ud think he would have had massive deviation, but the SOB still had me as soon as he was up. Not even a fraction of a second before his body showed up.

Lol, u can understand how laughable that situation is in regards to that. In any case, i still stand by the deviation to be all right and managable for now.

[sakils2]

No, I use my sights. When I have a scoped weapon I can make accurate shoots without using scope.

I was talking about CQB here.

Well, thats why you need to aim...
You just stated that you can make accurate shots without aiming.

Rrrrright.

You we're talking about CQB when you said pray and spray, I was talking about CQB, too.

You like not being able to hit a guy that is less than a meter from you?

My response---> Well, thats why you need to aim...

Do you really think I would aim with my optics/sights at this range? And I was not talking about aiming with sights/optics.

Simply stated because he is contradicting himself and cannot make up his mind.

I was talking about CQB all the time! It's not my fault you misunderstood!

[xXRich07Xx]

I see people like this all the time, and even I have found myself forgetting at times what I would do in RL, and I'd run through somewhere with a fresh dead body on the ground, or stand up on a roof top in a hot zone.

If you want to instill fear of death in a player there has to be real consequences that the player will fear if he gets shot.

The only solution implementable is to have a player get kicked from the server if he gets killed, maybe after 3 deaths or some # if there would be a worry about game play. It may sound extreme, but so is death.

You can do long spawn times, but then after a point I would just leave and rejoin the server.

Ahh, but here is where we must balance fun with realism. Make it too realistic and it won't be fun. Make it too fun and it won't be realistic.

Well, if you would think a little bit you would've understand that I was talking about CQB (when I said that I can make accurate shoots without using scopes).

That discussion is over as requested by admins.

[Rudd]

^ god...why do I actually visit this forum when there are is so much bitching....

It could stall out games some I guess, and would really piss some off, but I can also see it encouraging more serious communication. I don't think those lame late night games where no one talks, or most people don't speak your language, would last so long with a death=kick rule (good? or bad?).

don't even go there in my opinion. Yes...its a realistic portrayal of death I guess. But this system would make me avoid pubbers 100% of the time, I'd only play with PRT members or clan members cuz I wouldn't trust a pubber, since I don't want to spend my time in a loading screen when I want to play a game.

[Jay]

WEll thiing is i didnt move at all, i was laying still and had sight up. As soon as he popped up i shot at him, it should have been exceptionally good hitting average, but out of 2 bullets fired, 0 hit.

And he got up, shot once and killed. HIS deviation should be have been much higher than mine.

I get that he head shotted me, i dont have a problem with that.

But this was a blue on blue gun fight.

i had bluefor gun with insurgent, and he was blufor with blufor gun.

When going straight up from prone position, ud think he would have had massive deviation, but the SOB still had me as soon as he was up. Not even a fraction of a second before his body showed up.

Lol, u can understand how laughable that situation is in regards to that. In any case, i still stand by the deviation to be all right and managable for now.

Is it possible that going Prone -> Standing doesn't actually reset your deviation? Therefore he would have had the minimum deviation possible (close to zero) for his first, and only, shot. Subsequent shots, however, you probably would have won?

I'm not sure this is the case, but I'm pretty sure that going from Crouching -> standing doesn't change your deviation, so maybe it's the same for prone?

[ralfidude]

Gentleman!!

STAY ON TOPIC!


Its been said by the devs here already, Whatever the beef is between you guys, grill it up and eat it.

If you must discuss it, do it out of the forums, no point spamming this forum with useless comments.


PS: maybe jay, i dont know, perhaps a dev could enlighten me on this. That could seriously explain it. I mean i thought u cannot shoot for a second if you go from one prone to standing to simulate getting up, but i could have dreamt that up, lol.

[Jaymz]

I'm not sure this is the case, but I'm pretty sure that going from Crouching -> standing doesn't change your deviation, so maybe it's the same for prone?

Changing stance without any WASD movement doesn't reset the deviation settle time. There's no way to make it affect the settle time otherwise we would have already implemented it.

[Cobhris]

The rifles act like rifles.

The people playing don't act like people getting shot at by rifles.

Most of the people here would never charge up a street that has 7.62mm rounds flying down it just for the chance that they might make it this time.

I see people like this all the time, and even I have found myself forgetting at times what I would do in RL, and I'd run through somewhere with a fresh dead body on the ground, or stand up on a roof top in a hot zone.

If you want to instill fear of death in a player there has to be real consequences that the player will fear if he gets shot.

The only solution implementable is to have a player get kicked from the server if he gets killed, maybe after 3 deaths or some # if there would be a worry about game play. It may sound extreme, but so is death.

You can do long spawn times, but then after a point I would just leave and rejoin the server.

It could stall out games some I guess, and would really piss some off, but I can also see it encouraging more serious communication. I don't think those lame late night games where no one talks, or most people don't speak your language, would last so long with a death=kick rule (good? or bad?).

I'm sure something like it has been brought up before... what do the DEVs think about death = kick?

You do know people die in real wars, right? There's only 32 players on each team; you can't seriously expect 500 different people to come on to play and then die 15 minutes later and get kicked.