AA missiles after 1.4.17

[DogACTUAL]

Could take a step towards realism and make IR missiles have no lock-on or fire warning, make the flares proper effective (if you see a missile firing you can deafeat it) and decrease amount of flares to prevent pre-flaring making CAS invulnerable.

Actually nice idea, can get behind that, anyone else? Just increase flares to a realistic number but make them deploy in big volleys so they get used up quicker.

Or you dont fly over AA?

You still don't seem to understand that in a normal match AA covers all the objectives. Avoiding AA in CAS the whole round is practically impossible. Your whole team+ commander won't be able to spot every AA (on big maps there are 10 available AAs per team). Especially the sneaky ones in a pit or building. One AA alone can possibly cover an area bubble of over 2.5km in diameter. Now imagine at least 3 in different parts of the map. Already more than enough to cover every objective.

Would you tell a tank to go inside an urban area full of enemies and then complain its their fault when it gets hit by RPGs? With a practical outlook, even with a competent team the intel will always be far from perfect and incomplete.

What you are saying is basically that you want to be able to kill any jet you can remotely see, no matter what it does, which is far from realistic. PR air combat is scaled down heavily (normal map max engagement range is 1.2km). So ranges of 800m+ should basically be treated like IRL ranges or altitudes where AA missile probability of kill becomes low because of manouverability/speed loss of missile.

Also consider this: If a jet kills you you can just respawn in less than one minute and get your kit back, if you kill a jet the pilot has to wait 20min until he can use it again. Your whole attitude is pure entitlement, you want to be able to swat any jet you see out of the sky, no matter what, with no skill and planning just by shooting at its flares.

John has a perfect dice...

John has a practical outlook. John has experienced through countless tests that around every 2nd AA missile will ignore any flares and kill the jet. So he doesn't get focused on semantics and can say with confidence that in nearly every case one AAV can kill any jet it sees no matter the circumstances.

Lets keep it simple. The client does not know what you actually lock at.

In the 2 videos there can be no doubt that most if not all kills resulted from an actual flare being locked, even if the interface is a bit wonky sometimes. Even if that wasn't the case this system would still be undeniably broken and in need of big adjustments. Or are you telling me an AA missile (fired at a flare) is supposed to just ignore a shitton of flares in its FOV and instead track the jet that is behind that cloud of flares?

Don't tell me reasonable AA balance is impossible with the new system. Right now most helicopters are actually 'OK', if you shoot at their flares (yes even with buggy interface you blame), the missile will far less often go for the helo compared to jets. Even the A10 will noticeably fare better against flare locking
compared to normal fighter jets.

That tells me certain adjustments can be made by looking at those cases and copying what makes them work better. But i guess helos and A10 will be nerfed instead.

[fecht_niko]

Well if I would drive inside the city I wouldn't be mad if my ground asset gets rekt.
Waiting 20min because you went full yolo isn't a reason. Get good and you don't have to wait.

Stop whining about AA being able to kill you. Change your tactics and ask your friends to hunt AAs before you start raping.

[inb4banned]

Dog how do you expect anyone to answer you for the 5th time when you ignore posts from developers explaining to you exactly how the locking works, what the missile tracks and what changed with the patch that made AA useful...

[viirusiiseli]

Stop whining about AA being able to kill you. Change your tactics and ask your friends to hunt AAs before you start raping.

AA can kill you beyond visual range. Saaremaa VD is 1km. That is true for AA, due to silhouetting. For CAS, from air to ground, VD is somewhere 800-900m.

So, the AA looks for a lock box and a silhouette of a heli from the sky, the heli crew has to look for a barely visible target on thermals. It can be in the middle of the forest, virtually invisible to you. It will still shoot at you effectively, while you cannot see it.

One well-placed AA covers an area of 3,14 sq km. Now with new MANPADs, this is true for them, too. The playing area (land - DODs) is generously estimated around 5 sq km. Your friendly team sucks, you only have 2 spotters, but can't get to lase the AA. Without diving, you are unable to kill the AA without a lase or exact location. If you decide to go for the AA and find it, you have a 75% chance or higher to die.

Yet, the AA prevents you from accessing the middle 3 sq km of the map, where you could kill anything else. How do you play CAS? Keep the heli on the ground? Fly around the water? Go camp enemy mainbase? Fly 1500 for the rest of the round?

You don't see any problems with this? Keep in mind, this is a situation with 1 static AA.

[Frontliner]

It wasn't CAS that was OP, it was just the group of people who spent a good amount of time on figuring out all the effective tactics.

We always had 1 guy going commander or JTAC, and if we had more friends on we would have several spotters relaying info. You think it's the magical CAS OPness that we used, but you obviously ignored to see the hard work behind the kills.

Wow, such tactics, much strategy.

One person with unlimited fuel and thermals that cannot be killed scouts out the entire enemy team, and, most importantly, where their assets were and where the would-be-counters to your Helo or Jets are. 3 people is all it took to be very effective, and good boots on the ground obviously made it even easier.

You honestly think you're the only one who understood how easy it is to abuse this tactic, lmao, why do you think the UAV had its thermals and lazer removed and got a fuel mechanic? You and your group just made it more of an effort to abuse it at every opportunity you got.

Now that 1.2 is long gone and multiple changes have nerfed the key broken elements of that patch, it's a much more balanced game.

You also think we went for infantry kills while the enemy had AA cover, which is false too. We killed AAs first with good intel, lazes and dives, then raped the enemy team. That's why DEVs removed diving from helis first. Or if there was too much AA, we stayed away from them and killed what we could. It was outperforming the enemies, not using an OP asset with no skill.

"We killed the one thing that was supposed to counter us because we didn't consider it to be a threat back then and the flares made sure they weren't. Please bring those times back because it took us literally 3 people to execute this highly skilled tactical manoeuver of putting a UAV overhead, lazing and hitting", am I reading this correctly?

I'm not trying to discredit your skill, but to think that it's strategically sound to go first for the one thing that's designed to counter you, get away with doing that most of the times and consider that behaviour to be fair in a game is absurd. If you had intel on an enemy AA position, the best move would be to leave it to your ground forces to kill it, but no, that wasn't necessary back then. And now that it is you complain about the system being broken. Yeah no.

All of these tactics do not work anymore. No CAS crew is getting anything done anymore. Because everything about CAS got nerfed, and AA was only buffed for the last 10+ patches.

Because it's called ANTI-AIR, and you attempt to kill it with AIR. What do you think should dictate the outcome if not a dedicated counter doing its work? Pure random chance? We had that and it was shit, thanks. "I pressed F in time so I should not be killed" as opposed to "I had intel on that position and shouldn't even be there.", that mindset doesn't seem to get through your skull at all. Get proper intel first, then strike. Or face the consequences.

You can keep whinging about CAS being OP back then, but you can't point to a single group of players that would have done the same as we did. CAS was balanced, guys on the ground were just garbage or didn't try hard enough.

It was sure nice seeing "you're lucky we had flare bug" or something to that effect every time a CAS asset was killed in 1.2.

Marvelous balance.

[LimitJK]

The only thing needing changes if anything are stationary AAs and MANPADs.

oh no, the nightmare repeats. someone gets killed in his asset by the corresponding stationary counter --> nerf it into oblivion.

constructive feedback: the preceived unfair AA is due to the massive increase in splash damage and damage range a few patches back, leading to missiles exploding on flares to kill the aircraft (hence the flares are missile magnets notion).

http://https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f604-pr-changelogs/145800-pr-bf2-v1-4-15-0-v1-4-16-0-v1-4-17-0-changelog.html#post2171412
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sQtUVSiM9E&feature=youtu.be

quick fix:
keep the missile hit probability as it is.
reduce splash range + damage.
this should reduce the flaring but dying frustration

in general there are 2 ways to go (exaggerated):

1-low hit probability, high damage: many AAs are basically MANPADS stacked, the effectiveness increase from handheld to AAV would come from the higher overall probability to score one deadly hit.
example AAV: one hit is a kill, one hit out of four shots -> kill
- "no skill", random
- preflaring heliCAS can be untouchable

2.) high hit probability, low damage: many AAs are basically MANPADS stacked, the effectiveness increase from handheld to AAV would come from the scoring multiple hits until the enemy aircraft is finished.
example AAV: one hit does 25% damage, four hits out of four shots-> kill
- flares matter much less
- forced to rtb often (worse for planes)

opinions?

[viirusiiseli]

One person with unlimited fuel and thermals that cannot be killed scouts out the entire enemy team, and, most importantly, where their assets were and where the would-be-counters to your Helo or Jets are

That's what all the teamworkers considered as teamplay, until the asset whores showed what the true potential of the UAV was. It is still as fair as anything, both teams have it. Opinions change oh so fast.

You honestly think you're the only one who understood how you need to use it correctly to make it a viable tactic, lmao

Yes, as seen from the lack of people actually accomplishing anything with UAV+CAS or UAV and anything else. All other people ever did as comm was create useless intel that nobody acted upon.

"We killed the one thing that was supposed to counter us because we took necessary precautions, got intel before attacking, used the appropriate tactic for destroying it (diving), despite it taking a long time to deploy (several minutes to gain alt), and then won the fight by taking them by surprise.

Yes, that is how it went.

it's strategically sound to go first for the one thing that's designed to counter you, get away with doing that most of the times... ...If you had intel on an enemy AT position, the best move would be to leave it to your ground forces to kill it

Well, after a bunch of generalizations, assumptions and underestimating you failed to accurately describe AA vs CAS in 1.2-1.3, but you did just perfectly describe TANK vs AT just now. Good boy.

Because it's called ANTI-AIR, and you attempt to kill it with AIR.

Isn't that exactly what they do in real life?

The initial strikes were composed of Tomahawk cruise missiles[5] launched from warships situated in the Persian Gulf, F-117A Nighthawk stealth bombers[5] with an armament of laser-guided smart bombs,[5] and F-4G Wild Weasel aircraft armed with HARM anti-radar missiles.[6] These first attacks allowed F-14, F-15, F-16, and F/A-18 fighter bombers to gain air superiority over the country and then continue to drop TV and laser-guided bombs.

But since we don't have Tomahawk missiles or Nighthawks in PR, I'll settle for being able to dive kill the AAs with a cas heli or jet

2.) high hit probability, low damage: many AAs are basically MANPADS stacked, the effectiveness increase from handheld to AAV would come from the scoring multiple hits until the enemy aircraft is finished.
example AAV: one hit does 25% damage, four hits out of four shots-> kill
- flares matter much less
- forced to rtb often (worse for planes)

You just described 0.9 - 0.98 AA balance, which was, quite good. But as 0.98, it would require helis that go faster than the current walking speed, to be able to rtb often.

[DogACTUAL]

Dog how do you expect anyone to answer you for the 5th time when you ignore posts from developers explaining to you exactly how the locking works, what the missile tracks and what changed with the patch that made AA useful...

Because right now it is working much better for helicopters and A10, so there must be tweaks that can be made to give jets a fighting chance again.
You are a fool if you believe the new AA system (higher refresh rate and all) doesn't leave any room for additional balance in favour of CAS.

Well if I would drive inside the city I wouldn't be mad if my ground asset gets rekt...Change your tactics and ask your friends to hunt AAs before

But that is the best comparison right now for jets. Just like in a 1km pure urban map many of the 10 AAs/RPGs go unnoticed by your team and are mobile and actively hunting you. There is always at least one hidden/unknown AT/AA in range the moment you show up at an objective. You can't just tell your APC/jet to 'avoid going near AT/AA' when they cover the whole map.

Or tell the whole team to find and kill any of the elusive 10 AAs/ATs on the map, especially if they are constantly changing positions and getting rebuild (somewhere else) or just came out of main. LMAO you'd need dedicated AA/AT hunter squadrons for that and even then many would slip through. Can't believe your bias is clouding your judgment that hard.

constructive feedback: the preceived unfair AA is due to the massive increase in splash damage and damage range a few patches back, leading to missiles exploding on flares to kill the aircraft (hence the flares are missile magnets notion).

Simply wrong. Splash was already reduced substantially in response to the new AA system.
Watch the proof videos carefully, the missiles are completely ignoring any flares they were shot at or are in their way and are only tracking and following the jet, directly exploding on it. Perfectly visible in SWAT's 2nd video with no flare spam. When we made the video i checked my rear in the jet and always saw the missiles directly coming up to and hitting my jet with no flares anywhere near when they reached me.

The system right now is proven to be completely broken.

[fecht_niko]

There are several mistakes you make.

-AAVs can guarantee aircover, manpad and stationary AA cant
-AAVs arent availible on many maps, easy target for any AT, APC, Tank
-CAS should never go for AA (why do you think its called AntiAir?)
-stationary AAs arent used that much on pubs and easy to spot.
-only manpad can hide but it wont kill CAS most likely

The purpose of jets should be to kill enemy jets and go for lazed objectives, while the spotter or UAV checks for AA threats.
CAS choppers dont need spotters but have to play way more save.

-> Dont go yolo for targets if no one checked the area first. Use hit and run tactics

[Danesh_italiano]

How to kill enemy jets dogfighting... use low range AA. 100% chance to kill. NO skills needed... If AA is supposed to be OP, why put flares on jet then? :/

[PatrickLA_CA]

There are several mistakes you make.

-AAVs can guarantee aircover, manpad and stationary AA cant
-AAVs arent availible on many maps, easy target for any AT, APC, Tank
-CAS should never go for AA (why do you think its called AntiAir?)
-stationary AAs arent used that much on pubs and easy to spot.
-only manpad can hide but it wont kill CAS most likely

The purpose of jets should be to kill enemy jets and go for lazed objectives, while the spotter or UAV checks for AA threats.
CAS choppers dont need spotters but have to play way more save.

-> Dont go yolo for targets if no one checked the area first. Use hit and run tactics

Have you ever played CAS?

[DogACTUAL]

AAVs can guarantee aircover, manpad and stationary AA cant...only manpad can hide but it wont kill CAS most likely

WAT... Right now i one shot kill jets with manpads by just locking their flares, it is like at least a 50% chance of a hit. Stationary AA emplacements are just as effective as AAVs now safe for the better firing angle of the AAV. Two missiles will be more than enough to kill any jet you see in 95% of cases anyway by locking its flares, more missiles per mag are just a barely needed additional luxury/assurance now.

AAVs arent availible on many maps, easy target for any AT, APC, Tank

CAS is an even easier target for an AAV. At least an AAV can hide behind a building or a ditch, or stay with friendly armour assets and troops for protection. Also, without AAVs a team still has a potential of eight AAs at their disposal. More than enough to cover every objective multiple times.

CAS should never go for AA (why do you think its called AntiAir?)

So tanks should never go for anti tank vehicles or anti tank emplacements? What a flawed logic. Just because your name is 'anti tank' or 'anti air', it doesn't give you the ability to beat that respective asset in every circumstance. People accept that when it comes to tanks killing AT, but for some reason they don't when it comes to CAS. Nobody would advocate for AT to be able to kill tanks behind cover by the missile homing in on them without ever actually seeing them. Or to be able to see and engage them behind thermal smoke. But the equivalent to that is demanded for AA by people like you.

IRL jets actually went and destroyed many SAM sites and AAVs through bombing and using anti radiation missiles in SEAD missions. Look up 'SEAD mission' and learn something. Even regular F16 jets heavily engaged in such missions taking out many AAs. I even read an account from an expert on the matter that says it seems in a fight between AA assets and organized and prepared jets on such a misson to destroy AA, jets usually have the upper hand.

stationary AAs arent used that much on pubs and easy to spot

LOL. The reason they aren't used that much is that usually 2-3 of them are more than enough to cover all the objectives in play and take out any jet that dares to enter their lock range. If CAS was balanced properly you would also see more of them build and in use. They are easy to spot only if they get build on an elevated/highly visible location. If you build them in a ditch spotting them is very hard. Also, even if they get destroyed, they can be rebuild in one minute while a jet has to wait 20min. Destroy one AA, other ones will be build somewhere else right after.

[Frontliner]

That's what all the teamworkers considered as teamplay, until the asset whores showed what the true potential of the UAV was. It is still as fair as anything, both teams have it. Opinions change oh so fast.

Whose opinion are you attempting to straw-man here? Mine? Certainly not. The majority knew what a broken mess the 1.2 CO UAV was, why do you think it's been disabled in every PRT ever since even with the new fuel mechanic?
And it was brought up plenty of times that COs in 1.2 where just babysitting their team's strongest asset without any drawbacks, something you either don't remember or conveniently forget.

You are correct that both teams have the option, but again you are completely leaving out the fact that a) UAVs were and are different and b ) that there are layouts which feature only one party getting a CAS asset and the other jack shit(Militia, for example). Even if that CO would use his UAV, it'd be not nearly as combat effective as the other one, and there was nothing he could do to help his tanks not get spotted by the opposing CO.
And that's also leaving out the fact that the CO is not a role that has to be used.

Yes, as seen from the lack of people actually accomplishing anything with UAV+CAS or UAV and anything else. All other people ever did as comm was create useless intel that nobody acted upon.

I UAV'd more than once our team to a victory and I had others UAVing me to victory as well. Just because >insert asset user here< didn't have 100 kills at the end of the round didn't mean we didn't curbstomp the opponent's tanks, then APCs, then FOBs, then won the game thanks to UAV easy mode. "I didn't see that happening", so what? There's plenty of stuff I didn't see, yet I know is real.

Yes, that is how it went.

I'm not here to trashtalk your skills, but you, like I said, found a way to make yourself impervious to what's supposed to counter you with very little effort involved. AA emplacements/vehicles cannot know for certain where you are even with CO help, whereas you get both a 100% accurate and guaranteed killing blow compared to a would-be killing blow except all it took to avoid that was pressing "F" once in case a missile was fired.
I'll be frank, I can't comment on the supposed "effort" it took you to "set up" such a kill, but I can comment on the effectiveness of it and why CAS was pure AIDS in 1.2.

Well, after a bunch of generalizations, assumptions and underestimating you failed to accurately describe AA vs CAS in 1.2-1.3, but you did just perfectly describe TANK vs AT just now. Good boy.

I don't need to know how to do it in order to see the effectiveness of it all, and the immunity CAS had against AAs of all kinds in every situation except when "you're lucky we had flare bug".
Just like before you're putting words in my mouth. I never claimed Tank v AT to be perfect, in fact I made numerous comments on it, but hey, let's just imply I said something you disagree with instead of addressing the point I made, right?

Isn't that exactly what they do in real life?
But since we don't have Tomahawk missiles or Nighthawks in PR, I'll settle for being able to dive kill the AAs with a cas heli or jet.

We have no SEAD aircraft and even if we had, most AAVs aren't radar guided so that wouldn't work.
CAS would only be deployed against outdated weaponry like stationary guns and emplacements, but as far as PR is concerned, the opponents of BluFor/RedFor - that aren't proper armies themselves - are scaled up to be considered "combat capable" as opposed to "pushovers". Without jammers every run would be risky. And that's also neglecting game limitations such as View Distance.
Yes, CAS does see more use against underdeveloped foes IRL, even against dedicated AA pieces, but that part of IRL is left out for the sake of game balance.

[DogACTUAL]

If game balance is what you want, flares must be fixed first. They are completely broken right now. If you don't want to do this please just remove flares altogether, they do not work anyway in most cases, as demonstrated in the video footage. The sad thing is, this is not me being dramatic saying this. This is just the truth.

[FFG]

Played a round of muttrah yesterday in CAS (Arguably the most AA intensive map). I died Twice in the round to AA. First time was Yolo rushing INF instead of prioritising AA in the huey. Second death was Yolo rushing 2 AA at once right before the end of the round and not killing either. In the round I was splashed 5-6 times by AA missiles and shot at by AA more often then that. I focused AA, Didn't spam flares and flared Properly.


http://prsrv.newworldgaming.xyz/PRServe ... 2.PRdemo#1

Not the most amount of kills. But the round was roughly 30-40 per side most of the match. You guys need to change how you fly and flare. Flying like you could in 1.2 will just get you killed. Learn and adapt. gitgud.

[DogACTUAL]

Wtf we are talking about fixed wing cas which is a whole different ballgame. We know that helicopters are 'OK' right now, much less missiles ignoring flares with helicopters than with fixed wing CAS, where every 2nd missile will ignore the flares. Same for A10, flares on A10 work quite a bit better than those of other jets.

Even so, helicopters will still get the occasional missile that will totally ignore flares even when fired on a flare, but at least they are playable right now.

[FFG]

Wtf we are talking about fixed wing cas which is a whole different ballgame. We know that helicopters are 'OK' right now, much less missiles ignoring flares with helicopters than with fixed wing CAS, where every 2nd missile will ignore the flares. Same for A10, flares on A10 work quite a bit better than those of other jets.

Even so, helicopters will still get the occasional missile that will totally ignore flares even when fired on a flare, but at least they are playable right now.

Flares are the same on Helicopters as they are on jets. Jets just move faster. My points still valid, you spam flares and yolo over AA. Focus AA, pop correctly and your fine.

[DogACTUAL]

Yes yes it mostly works with helicopters right now you are right, nobody is denying that. And yes the flares themselves are technically the same on every vehicle, but for some reason they still work differently on jets than on helicopters. With jets over 50% of missiles will follow and kill the jet even when shooting a flare (wonky bullshit HUD yada yada), end result is still that jet flares don't do their job.

An no, it doesn't matter how you flare, we tried every possible flaring technique you could come up with, it doesn't matter. Although spamming flares will indeed result in more shot downs because of additional prox splashed by missile.

[FFG]

Yes yes it mostly works with helicopters right now you are right, nobody is denying that. And yes the flares themselves are technically the same on every vehicle, but for some reason they still work differently on jets than on helicopters. With jets over 50% of missiles will follow and kill the jet even when shooting a flare (wonky bullshit HUD yada yada), end result is still that jet flares don't do their job.

An no, it doesn't matter how you flare, we tried every possible flaring technique you could come up with, it doesn't matter. Although spamming flares will indeed result in more shot downs because of additional prox splashed by missile.

Do a test where your a jet on khami dropping a bomb on a laze and have the AA kill you before the bomb hits.

[viirusiiseli]

Have you ever played CAS?

He hasn't, the ignorance reeks from his post.

Learn and adapt. gitgud.

Never thought I'd live long enough to hear gitgud from you FFG

There's only so much you can do against constant nerfs and the worst patch for CAS in the history of PR. ATM its not worth the trouble, because you could just go armor and hit 50s instead of spending 40 minutes to get 20 inconsequential kills with CAS.

Hell, if I was playing that round, I would have outperformed your cobra with a simple solo AR. Is that the balance we are supposed to be content with?