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Wouldn't the ROE say that you won't be able to shoot an armed collaborator unless he attacked you (treat it like reviving is right now)?

mosinmatt wrote:Ok. The civilian/collaborator.
The ingame ROE dont necessarily meet what they would be IRL I think. BUT! That doesnt really matter all that much.
Look at some of the more left-wing reporting on the war in Iraq. Even if the "civilian" is helping a group of guys with AKs and RPGs, they still report it as killing Innocent civilians.
So, while you shooting that unarmed guy may fall into actual ROE...it is OUTSIde the "hearts and minds" ROE of the common folk at home.
Insurgents, and especially the HAMAs are known for using human shields. When these human shields are killed, the BLUEFOR are blamed for it.

That is just my 2 cents. I like the ROE for the collaborator now. People are always going to whine about it though. It is not like the civilian can directly hurt you. Anyways....they are easily gotten rid of if you know what you are doing.
The old rules were HORRIBLE. I mean, you would spawn as a civilian. Stand around a bit... go out, get shot, then you would have to wait 120+second, JUST CAUSE you were that class, where as the blufor never got punished for it. It was a useless class. But now it is great, and can be a true asset to the INS team.

Ok, i remember that, and it was horrible. then DB came along and miricled it into a workable system. Getting that same person to rework a system that took probibly in excess of a hundred hours to figure out and write aint easy. I always figured back then that it was less of a collaborator problem and more of a blufor problem.

Bob of Mage wrote:Wouldn't the ROE say that you won't be able to shoot an armed collaborator unless he attacked you (treat it like reviving is right now)?

I cant begin to imagine how a "near miss" with balistics could effect the conditions in the in-game ROE.

Mellanbror wrote:The odd player might, in the beginning. They have a 1 in 3 chance it's an ok civi to shoot.
But seeing as this would lead to it being more "civis" around, you don't think players would learn fast when they more often get the spawntime penalty? I do.
Besides the spawntime-penalty team would suffer from loss of intel.

I believe this would lead to bluefor being more careful around civis, not less.

If it would be a problem, then change ROE, even armed civi could fall under ROE as is. I.e you get a penalty shooting him if he hasent had his gun up the last 2 minutes.

I would myself just be more careful around civis. Probably feel game was more exciting then now. The whole point is not knowing - harmless or not.

@Ghost and Rissen: It would be nice if you elaborated your thoughts a bit more.

You may be suprised just how few people care about the current spawn penalties. If your in a vehicle and keep killing civis and dont die youd never have to worry about it, and as far as intel goes at least half the games played it isnt needed anyways because there will always be that one idiot shooting rpgs off from caches. Had one round on Fallujah, our squad personally took down 6 of the 7 caches, the second cache we were actually in the process of burning when Gary detonated and tked the cache. We were actively attacking every cache BEFORE the cache markers went up because of people spawning on them and using communication with other non squad members.

As for the civis, people just dont care. Some yeah will but theres those who could care less about who they shoot. Remember that civi party video ralfi or mac made? That very game a styker rolled up on us *granted we had regular insurgents mixed and had shot a BH down but we still had AT LEAST 12 civis in the group* and he just mowed all of us down, we respawned and he kept shooting us. Increasing spawn penalties wont do much, just gives a player a break, he/she could alt tab and do something else, go get a drink, etc. Some people have even talked about leaving and rejoining *thats server dependant* and they pretty nuch spawn in before they would have waiting.

What about giving Buckshot Shotgun to all rifleman kits in Insurgency? Still fairly short ranged, but would stop Civvy's taking the p1ss.

(I am a regular Civvy user and think that is the best compromise).

Mikemonster wrote:What about giving Buckshot Shotgun to all rifleman kits in Insurgency? Still fairly short ranged, but would stop Civvy's taking the p1ss.

(I am a regular Civvy user and think that is the best compromise).

That is horrible.
1) Civilian kit would be useless, cause everyone could "arrest" at a distance.
2) SHotgun is rather powerful
3) not realistic
a.Not every soldier every carries a shotgun
b.The weight would be horrible

Just run your squad with a specialist, that is all you need to do. Then the collaborators FLEE.

There's no point in arguing about this, the "civi" / "Collabortator" system will never work. That is untill we can have a third team which has no ill intentions towards blufor team. That is the limitations of a video game. the sole fact that the "Civi" is on opfor team is enough to prove hostile intent for a player and thus he can never consider them innocent civilians.

I've always wanted regular civilians that couldn't be killed OR arrested (without penalties) unless they did something to warrant it, in addition to collaborators. This way BLUFOR doesn't see the entire enemy force as hostile.

But they wouldn't get medical supplies. Killing a regular, innocent civilian that didn't do anything to become "guilty" (these civilians can still become guilty, like collaborators, the only difference is that they can't be arrested for doing nothing at all) could maybe still allow him to be a martyr, but arresting an innocent civilian would perhaps give BLUFOR a five intel points penalty, and a smaller score penalty than killing an innocent collaborator. I think arresting a truly innocent civilian (not collaborator) that can't be arrested or killed due to ROE should not give any intel points because if the civ had no reason to be arrested, he probably wouldn't know much about the enemy in the first place. Killing an innocent civilian (not collaborator), I think should have harsher penalties than killing a collaborator outside the ROE.

As far as civilians and collaborators go, there will always be problems with the ROE, punishments, and whatnot. For these reasons, player controlled civilians/collaborators have never been in any game before that depicts places that would realistically have them, that I have ever seen anyways.

Having that option in PR despite any difficulties that we've been discussing to death is one of the things that really drew me to PR. It offered a completely new way to play, when I started in .6 it was a class where you actually wanted to die. That was of course unrealistic, but it was definitely something I'd never seen before. Since then the collaborator has changed many times to become more of a medic or spotter.

While, I find some faults with it as is, it is still better than any other game I've ever played in that there is at least an option for someone to play as an unarmed class in a fps game. Just having that alone says a lot about teamwork and how different PR is from the mainstream of gaming. Just figured I'd throw that into here, though it is mostly my own comments on collaborators as a whole.

It seems that any idea that comes up will be destroyed by the "shooting rpg from unknown"-type players. We can't fix that.
Just like we can?t fix the odd man on bluefor side "taking an apc and solo it"-type.
But wait, the solution here is admins. Violators get kicked. Vehicle might be deserted in middle of map but a players has learned that on that server one does not solo apc.

On INS-map, here is radical thought, lets say that after 30 civikills out of ROE, Bluefor looses
the game. What would admins on bluefor do when a player shoots a civi. Probably warn them right. No one wants to loose fast because of one guy with the itchy trigger. Sl's will keep a vigilant eye on sm's. Majority of players would, as IRL, be real careful around civis.

Players racking up civikills will be kicked/tempbanned . I do not think the styker will mow down a group of civis with this ruleset. Not if he wants to play on the server again.
The odd player might not care, but he will never be seen again. Problem solved.

Insurgent squads need to operate like blufor squads. you wont change overall player attitudes by altering or removing the civi. if the ins squads played like blufor squads the civi would be the medic.

its possible that because the civi has such i high respawn time that they are not relyable enough for insurgent squads. its possible that because of that factor, the insurgent squad is broken down.

in blufor, what keeps squads together? an overall sense of a goal, the reliability of squad member functions and a medic to pick my *** up if i mess up and get shot. do the insurgents have that at their disposal..... like really have it?

Psykogundam wrote: in blufor, what keeps squads together? an overall sense of a goal, the reliability of squad member functions and a medic to pick my *** up if i mess up and get shot. do the insurgents have that at their disposal..... like really have it?

QFT.

Personally, I don't think they do.

Whilst I appreciate they can give intel points away I think the increased squad cohesion would make it less likely for the intel to be 'given' away.

If you want to be a loner on insurgency, why be a civi?

Plus make that civi is only requestable in a squad of 2 or more (if it isn't already).

Perhaps make them more susceptible to suppression when lone wolfing and less when close the rest of their squad?

insurgents aren't supposed to be played like blufor.

Raneman wrote:Perhaps make them more susceptible to suppression when lone wolfing and less when close the rest of their squad?

sounds interesting...

Why and to what effect? how would this improve the combat. you gotta explain for it to be taken seriously.

I'll just throw this in here with the rest of this stuff:

The real problem with insurgency is that insurgents really have nothing to do. Their gameplay pretty much consists of:

- Walk around as a civilian and hope someone kills you. (Buys time for team, but does not win you the game.)
- Place an ambush and wait. (With the large maps we're seeing, sitting around and waiting can take a really really long time, and is not very fun. There's also little incentive for BLUFOR to walk around randomly looking for caches on such large maps. The exception is of course when a cache is revealed. Also little incentive to randomly walk around when bored insurgents will simply come to you, and if you do walk around, you still risk ambush by those that are not bored, even then, you might not even find anyone.)
- Drive in vehicles/Blow up yourself (which of course not everyone can do.)

Now, sitting around and waiting (as insurgents) gets boring real fast, and so what you'll end up doing is go looking for action, but the BLUFOR way to play is just that... sitting around in their tank far out of range and blow up any oddities that spikes on the thermal. Or build a firebase in no-go zones and mortar random spots. Or a firebase in some open area just out of range for insurgent weapons and kill everything that approaches with their scopes and FINALLY move out when a cache is revealed.

What it all amounts to is: Playing as insurgent is not very fun. What you have left in order to get some enjoyment is to just mess around until the cache is revealed at which point US is forced to move out.

The solution to all of this is quite simple... Give objectives to Insurgents which can accelerate insurgent victory and requires combat/teamplay. Suddenly, insurgents have something to do other than test their opponents patience. In the valley map thing, taliban had a single base they could actually capture. This seems like an excellent solution to me, except for the fact that a single such spot doesn't utilize much of the map. An added measure could be to incur ticket loss upon losing a forward outpost. Or something else if that doesn't work.

I've said my share.

Integ3r wrote:What it all amounts to is: Playing as insurgent is not very fun.

If you don't enjoy the insurgent team, why don't you switch to blufor?

When insurgents go out looking for action, they just delay the game for the people who are playing it properly. Blufor take hours to get to your ambush because random zombies keep attacking them.

And don't get me wrong, there are times where attacking as insurgents is the right thing to do. But, leaving the known cache area because nobody is showing up, is not one of those times.

I pretty much only play insurgency maps anymore. And most of the time I switch to insurgents. I like their style of play, I like defending. If that comes with a lot of waiting around, that's fine with me.

I've never heard anyone object to my switching to opfor every round, so I doubt anyone would care if you (or others) switched to blufor every round. We all want everyone to do what they are best at and have fun doing it. It makes for a better game overall.

badmojo420 wrote:Blufor take hours to get to your ambush because random zombies keep attacking them.

There are no zombies in this game. If you like zombie games, maybe you should look into dead rising.


SEE, I CAN SINGLE OUT A SINGLE SENTENCE AND COMPLETELY DISREGARD EVERYTHING ELSE YOU WROTE TOO!
If you'd pay attention, you'd see that I did point out that waiting and setting up ambushes only makes sense when the cache area is revealed. Defending the cache IS fun. Until a cache is revealed, your objective is effectively nothing. That is, IN SHORT, my gripe with insurgency. Pointless and fruitless waiting is not fun. But currently, that's basically what you do. That, and walking around looking for action only to find the BLUFOR defending their firebase and mowing you down as the only path over there is through an open field.

EDIT EDIT: sleep deprivation affecting grammar, and sentence structure.

Integ3r wrote:There are no zombies in this game. If you like zombie games, maybe you should look into dead rising.


SEE, I CAN SINGLE OUT A SINGLE SENTENCE AND COMPLETELY DISREGARD EVERYTHING ELSE YOU WROTE TOO!
If you'd pay attention, you'd see that I did point out that waiting and setting up ambushes only makes sense when the cache area is revealed. Defending the cache IS fun. Until a cache is revealed, your objective is effectively nothing. That is, IN SHORT, my gripe with insurgency. Pointless and fruitless waiting is not fun. But currently, that's basically what you do. That, and walking around looking for action only to find the BLUFOR defending their firebase and mowing you down as the only path over there is through an open field.

EDIT EDIT: sleep deprivation affecting grammar, and sentence structure.

Except the one sentence you've selected to single out doesn't say I like zombie games.

The one sentence I selected summarized your post pretty well, and was relevant to my advice.

But, Okay, let's start debating insurgent strategy theory. You say it's dumb that you have no objective when no caches are revealed. And this creates a boring game that can only be improved by seeking out enemies to engage. But, that is no fun because they're more powerful than you.

I can't begin to assume to know what you think is enjoyable, but here is what I chose to do when there are no caches revealed....

-Setup and ambush. I actually find it more fun to do this when there are no caches visible. First, because blufor are more likely to be easily drawn into your area, because they're desperate for kills or a cache location. And second, because you have the luxury of picking your ambush spot. You're not restricted to where the cache spawns.

-Support your team. Take an ammo truck and deliver ammo crates. You'd be surprised how many times I've found an enemy squad while doing this. Then you just run them down if possible, find a safe spot to park, notify your teammates and maybe attempt an attack. Or just keep driving if things are too hot. Not to mention you'll help your teammates with ammo, which is highly needed during those times of unknown caches.

-Break time. Believe it or not, insurgents aren't needed in great numbers. Espeically when the cache is unknown. Less insurgents out there to be killed, means less intelligence points to give away. Which means more time before blufor know about next cache, which means more time to drain them of tickets. So, hide inside the dome of death and take a couple minutes to go get a snack or use the bathroom.

-Hunt for FOBs. Recon is gold, drive around looking for enemy activity and enemy FOBs. Report everything. Survive at all costs. When doing this, always recover abandoned assets, Bombtruck > Bombcar > SPG > 50 > Ammo > Car > Bike. Always upgrade whenever possible, and then run it back to main. It's a huge help to the team.

-Build hideouts. A team can never have too many hideouts.

-Go specialty kit. When I go sniper or AA, I like to be extremely sneaky. I'll pick a spot where I can support another ambush from a distance. It's easy to pick people off with the sniper rifle when they're distracted from another direction. And the AA is safer alone, and away from the place being strafed. I've been completely surrounded by enemies, hiding in a building on a number of occasions. And then when I hear the sound of a helicopter coming, I'll pop out and take a shot. They just don't expect you to be that close, and helicopter pilots see blue mobs as a somewhat safe area. You just have to be careful not to move much or use radio commands when enemies are that close. Your ears are your eyes.

But, these are things I enjoy doing. I don't always need to be firing my weapon in PR to have a great time. If I'm helping the team, I feel like I'm accomplishing something.

It seemed like these things wouldn't all interest you and you wanted action. So I suggested switching to blufor because they're forced into action constantly.

badmojo420 wrote:If you don't enjoy the insurgent team, why don't you switch to blufor?

Thats is NOT a solution, im not reading the rest of your post. people allready teamstack too much as it is.

Insurgents need more things to do. they need an advantagous way to deploy their roadside bombs more easily. these methods include...

*Blufor Delay at round start./No countdown timer at start for insurgents.
*Commander can deploy bomb once every hour
*Insurgents get more deployables
*Insurgent Mines are invisible
*Increased bomb car blast radius
*Technical .50cal deviation, more grouping, and bullet strength.
*All Insurgents can call in targets using cell phones to other insurgents holding cellphones.

Take your pick, i dont even know if some of these things are doable. but insurgents gameplay can be made more fun with really simple improvements. i mean when the AR was turned into a laser beam with telescopic sight nobody even considered invisible mines afaik which would have balanced things out a lot imo.

Psykogundam wrote:Thats is NOT i mean when the AR was turned into a laser beam with telescopic sight nobody even considered invisible mines afaik which would have balanced things out a lot imo.

Invisible mines sounds kind of unfair and I can imagine more teamkills than we're already getting.

Perhaps the mine should only be a thin top layer and thus giving the illusion that is buried, yet somewhat visible if close.