Project Reality Forums

Bluedrake42 wrote:Yeah definitely struggling on keeping the discussion civil, this is something I get really pissed about easily...

same here.

The update allowing the rally points to be overran at a farther distance really improved the gameplay. Squad leaders need to be extra cautious when deploying their rally points. Rally points should serve only to allow dead players in the squad to spawn relative close to their own squads, but the reinforce rate should be kept in mind. In my opinion, the game-play needs to be balanced so that squads are not reinforced too quickly because it would just turn the game-play into a meat grinder over one portion of the map, but I still think RP's should only be allowed to be placed within a radius close to friendly FOB's if RP's are to be permanent spawn points.

WE NEED TO VOTE ON THIS!

DEMOCRACY NOW!

On another note: if your opinion of the rallies changes over time due to continued play or revisions; DEFINITELY say so. If a system plays well at first, but poorly afterwards, or vice versa, we'd definitely be interested in knowing.

tbh its also kinda hard to test rally's effectively with all the lag, although I can still say I don't like permanent rally's, but as far as more subtle tweaks you all are making, it'll be harder to test if everyone is compromised by lag

After playing more, I still do prefer the new rally point system over the previous one. However it does need some things to limit its usage. For example its little too strong tool if placed behind the "front line". So how to limit it? Some ideas:

Idea 1. Make Rallypoints an extension of firebases. Only allow the rallypoint to be placed within 1000-2000 meters from nearest firebase. Keeps firebases an important piece in the game while allowing a reinforcement point from different direction. Also makes sure there are no surprise buttsex rallypoints.
Additionally, make rallypoint reload time extremely long, its expensive and valuable. Lose it and you get your next one after 10+ minutes.

Idea 2. Don't allow placing rallypoints within 1000-x meters from a capture point. Allows placement on the map, but forces you to walk for minute or two and keeps firebases as the most important spawn location.

Idea 3. Only allow to spawn as rifleman or squadleader. Rallypoint would then lose its use as squad main spawn location in case of a wipe, as you would be missing all of your alternative and heavier weaponry. Rallypoint is then used as reinforcement point, when you are only missing a man or two and can take the loss of equipment.

DEVs, don't simply step back after few moments, its better than the previous, just needs some tweaking.

Holy shit this thread grew fast

MADsqirrel wrote: (And the 0.98 system wasnt perfect. Most of the time the team with better trans/FOB organization won. Not the team with the better tactics.)

Yeah, and that's what should happen. If a team is xxX[MLG-PRO]Xxx enough, they won't need fobs or rallies at all, right? And Organisation? Yeah, that's always gonna be important. In my opinion these rallies even make FOBs redundant since what effectively IS one can be made in the blink of an eye. If the team with better trans/fobs win, the team with the better rallies will win.

MADsqirrel wrote:Having 5 FOBs while the enemy has 2 has nothing to do with tactics...

But keep in mind that in PR 0.98 logistics simply means that your team can lemming the enemy team faster. 1 team losing some fobs at important locations will be pushed back.
Not because the advancing enemy destroyed it at its assault, but because of the 2 man squad that knifed those fobs while you where busy fighting on the frontline. And that is not "good tactics" its simply lame and hard to counter (you cant/want defend all your FOBs all the time)

That's why FOBs are only destructible by Specialists/Combat engies now. If a FOB doesn't have any guys near it to defend it, it's probably not very well placed, or used anyway.

In 1.0 ATM if you manage to break through the enemy lines you will most likely overun their RPs or force them to fall back (sadly people never want to retreat, i know)

Nobody will fall back when they can just get shot and have a 30 second spawn, and a 30 second walk back to their old dead body. Rally points can be placed VERY sneakily.

FOBs are also much stronger now because they are way harder to destroy completely. So they are more of a Fortress then just a spawnpoint.

Not really. They're just harder to destroy spawn points.

And please dont just say things like this:
"but good logistics ARE good tactics..."

without explaining why.

That needs no further explanation.

From what I've seen of gameplay in 1.0 so far, Air Trans is PLENTY to get around with (And also a lot more viable when it doesn't involve sky cows/sky snails), and I'd like to see it used even more than 0.98, not bloody less. I've made up my mind now, Rallies should be used for regrouping a half-dead squad and nothing more.

[quote=""'="]H[=TangFiend;1909779']
"Rallies exist to overcome the squad size limitations and server player limits to help represent larger company versus company sized conventional engagements."

Now we've tacked on another 36 players into maps of the same size, fighting over the same sized objectives of course it's going to feel more like a high action engagement with mounting casualties. Sorry kids but in reality which this mod aims to achieve, battles aren't sterile tacticool 6vs6 infantry shootouts where everybody mans a defensive emplacement while a couple of assets roll around. The rally changes really upsize the team and capture a larger scale chaos that is combat.

I say bravo to the DEV's stick to your guns. The community uproar will settle like it always does.[/quote]

In my opinion the additional players and larger squads are more than enough to up the action, but now it's just constant, it's silly. Say on Insurgency, if BLUFOR are attacking a cache, the Insurgents are gonna get NO breathing room no matter how effectively they kill off the attackers, they'd have to go and seek out the rally its self.

[quote="Ahzrukhal""]Winning a PR game is about teamwork and surviving. This rally point system takes out the need to survive and the teamwork associated with building and using FOBS.

People dont pay to much attention to the amount of tickets they cost their team when the round is up. Every time you get wounded its a ticket, then when you give up, its another ticket. Start thinking about the vehicles you may have lost too. Negative K/D actually hurts your team.

Shit, if you could, make it so no one can give up if there is a medic within 75m of their body.

The rally point system makes people care even less about tickets because they can quickly get back into the action, instead of relying on a medic - using teamwork.

Tickets are what decide a game, use them wisely and be mindful of your impact.

-Ahz the medic[/quote]

This

"New"/"old-old" rallies suck

Case closed

Id like to see something where you can put a squad rally down, but it only last 2 minutes, and you have to wait 10 to put it down again. That way its only really used if absolutely necessary.

M_Striker wrote:At the same time in previous versions I found that rally points were very rare because their use was so incredibly limited. I didn't like this so I can appreciate the change, but at the same time I do dislike many aspects of the current system.

Obviously many factors play into the rally point system but right now it is at the extreme of being too useful. The system needs to strike a balance between finding a good effective use for them without making them a squad's primary means of respawn.

Definitely agree, this is still better than the old system. It's just too drastic of a change and it's a little unbalanced with how SLs can just go around giving no fucks and placing rally points wherever they want, whenever they want.

PR's all about teamwork, yeah? How does a spawn point that my SL can shit out in the blink of an eye promote teamwork? All it's gonna promote, to reiterate some other posts, is giving up and respawning rather than waiting for your medic, or actually winning a firefight. All it's gonna promote is meat-grinder gameplay - That's not what PR's about for me. Yeah, there should be lots of people attacking/defending objectives, but that should be achieved through good logistics and transport rather than some magical spawn outta nowhere. Again, they should just be used for regrouping squads and nothing more, everything else can be handled with transports and FOBs - The changes to player count, squad size and FOB destruction are more than enough to offset their previous downfalls.

Situation: Half my squad, including the medic and leader, is down. I'm a relatively new player so at this point I think
"Well, screw it. My guys are dying because of an overwhelming enemy force (From their rally!). It doesn't matter if I get killed because I'll be back in the fight within a minute if I spawn on the rally!" So I charge at the enemy position and get mown down. I spawn. Rinse. Repeat. 10 minutess later and my team loses because all the tickets got depleted from constantly respawning guys.

In 0.98, it'd go like this

"Half my squad, including the SL and medic are down, but we've inflicted a couple of casualties on the enemy side too. I'm a relatively new player, so I'll try my best to stay alive and retrieve that medic kit. If we all go down, it's gonna take a few minutes to get back here." So, I get the medic kit, but get killed along with the remainder of my squad. The SL has us respawn on the carrier, where a helicopter takes us near our objective/The SL has us respawn at the FOB which is 5 minutes' walk to our objective.

What I'm trying to demonstrate with that is, any other method for reinforcement is tangible and destructible. You can shoot down a chopper, or blow up a truck full of enemy reinforcements, but you can't shoot down a rally point, you hardly get any indication what-so-ever that you've taken one out. And again, the fact that people can respawn so fast and so close makes people's fucks given level decrease drastically if things start going wrong.

In my opinion a cool way to get around it would be, have the rally mark a parachute spawn which flies over every # minutes. The players then parachute in (Maybe only riflemen get chutes - any other kit has to be requested from a crate/vehicle as normal). That way it's a lot more apparent that 1: there is a rally and 2: where it may be. If not, then just revert to 0.98, I really don't see it working any other way.


Bottom line is, if you want a game where organisation, strategy and tight teamplay don't matter, go play BF3 on Grand Bazaar and run up B alley.

Wow actually that'd be pretty cool if we made it so players that spawn off rallies have to paradrop in, that'd be a little more realistic, and it'd be a good indicator of where the enemy reinforcement point is.

Although even with that... I'd still prefer a considerably more limited rally system than what we have now... permanent rallies are definitely a no no... unless of course you do something like requiring a SL and 2 SM's around for it to stay active

Actually now that I think about it that's a really good idea, especially since the removal of binocs gives all kits an open "9" slot for parachutes now...

So we could do it like this:

1: Rally is place-able with 1 SL and 2 SMs, and requires 1 SL and 2 SMs within 150m to stay active
2: Units who spawn off a rally are para-dropped in, only Rifleman and Squad Leader kits have parachutes
(this means that any extra weaponry will have to be brought in via supplies)
3: Rallies have a rearm time of 15 minutes, or can be rearmed off a FOB

This solves a bunch of problems, and I think would be a good compromise for both sides

A: Permanent rallies are still an option, but you have to defend the position you placed them at
B: Rally reinforcements are easily spotted due to the para-dropping, making them less effective for launching surprise attacks
C: "Overrunning" or "Knifing" rallies aren't an issue anymore, if you want the rally to go down... kill enough of the enemy squad, snipe the squad leader, or force the squad to retreat away from the placed rally

This also solves problems that have to do with logistic, transport and FOB value

A: FOBs are more useful now, they provide a non-paradrop alternative to spawning, allow your squad to spawn in with better equipment, are considerably easier to defend, and don't disappear if you need to retreat (at least not until the enemy squad destroys it)
B: Transports and logistics will allow players to carry in the extra equipment they need, and will be a faster alternative to moving entire squads across the battlefield, and will often be a more stealthy alternative for moving infantry to the front lines

This sounds like an excellent compromise to me

I don't believe we need any other rules for dropping RPs, neither do I approve of the beta RP system.

IIRC, the main reason that rally points were ever left in was to allow late-comers/DC rejoins/etc. to instantly get to the squad's location.

The new system does increase the amount of gunfights, if that's what you're after, but you can never really know if you've done your job and repelled the attack when they can easily and with no effort at all magically reappear out in some obscure spot nearby and hit you all over again while you're still healing and regrouping. That's like: "Good job, now have a nice slap in the face." and no way to reward good defensive tactics and effort.

For the assaulting party, it's a breeze to just respawn and send in another wave. No penalty, really, just a few invisible points being drained off the team that you and your squad don't feel or notice.

It also slashes the value of player life. Gone and thrown away your life into the enemy fire? No problem! Respawns are magic and wonderful at the RP vortex your SL conjured out of thin air.

The pre-beta version was already enough to resupply almost a whole squads worth of reinforcements every five minutes.

I'd almost suggest that SLs be limited to rearming their RP at FSBs or main bases and that RP time to expire be reverted to pre-beta. They can do whatever they want with their RP after that. If the required distance from FSBs for reloading RPs is extended to 50 meters or so, I can understand.

Take out the permanent rally points.

New RP system is great! PR devs put it back for a reason. If you like walking for miles and miles go play arma! PR lost a lot of ppl because the game got so slow. I remember when pr had 15+ servers full all the time and there was always tactics and strategy and the game was fun to play. They lost the interest of the ppl and that's why there is only 2 servers that are full today. The more u take away the less interest ppl have in playing. Look at arma! Perfect example. I hated when they took out the RP. PR went downhill from there.
Crazy_T

doop-de-doo wrote:I don't believe we need any other rules for dropping RPs, neither do I approve of the beta RP system.

IIRC, the main reason that rally points were ever left in was to allow late-comers/DC rejoins/etc. to instantly get to the squad's location.

The new system does increase the amount of gunfights, if that's what you're after, but you can never really know if you've done your job and repelled the attack when they can easily and with no effort at all magically reappear out in some obscure spot nearby and hit you all over again while you're still healing and regrouping. That's like: "Good job, now have a nice slap in the face." and no way to reward good defensive tactics and effort.

For the assaulting party, it's a breeze to just respawn and send in another wave. No penalty, really, just a few invisible points being drained off the team that you and your squad don't feel or notice.

It also slashes the value of player life. Gone and thrown away your life into the enemy fire? No problem! Respawns are magic and wonderful at the RP vortex your SL conjured out of thin air.

The pre-beta version was already enough to resupply almost a whole squads worth of reinforcements every five minutes.

I'd almost suggest that SLs be limited to rearming their RP at FSBs or main bases and that RP time to expire be reverted to pre-beta. They can do whatever they want with their RP after that. If the required distance from FSBs for reloading RPs is extended to 50 meters or so, I can understand.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Defenders can't defend because by the time they've wasted half of the attackers, and rezzed any of their own guys, the attacking squad is back up to full strength. Onslaught and meat grinder.

tANNERRRR wrote:Take out the permanent rally points.

Yes.

jathlon77 wrote:New RP system is great! PR devs put it back for a reason. If you like walking for miles and miles go play arma! PR lost a lot of ppl because the game got so slow. I remember when pr had 15+ servers full all the time and there was always tactics and strategy and the game was fun to play. They lost the interest of the ppl and that's why there is only 2 servers that are full today. The more u take away the less interest ppl have in playing. Look at arma! Perfect example. I hated when they took out the RP. PR went downhill from there.
Crazy_T

The devs removed it for a reason too. PR is TINY compared to ArmA. Good FOBs, good Transport is all people need to get over the oh-so daunting 500m to the next objective. I swear I've actually lost weight from the miles and miles I've run in OFP/ArmA/2! Anyway, IMO the player count has nothing to do with features getting removed or put in, just people getting bored of stale overplayed content. I fucking LOVE PR and even I got bored of it several times. The gameplay is already faster because of more players, more trans and the deviation changes. Perma rallies just make it a ridiculous slaughterhouse, if I wanted action that repetitive I'd go play CoD. PR is a game that requires patience in so many aspects (Including updates, and waiting for HATs to rearm off ammo bags), and periods of idle time break up the monotony of what'd otherwise be throwing yourself into a constant firefight.

Also the lower player counts can be attributed to age. This is a mod for an 8 year old game. Granted the new releases still bring people in, but that number will always decrease

With the new 1.0 Beta rally point system. A squad leader has no reason to retreat and fall back. The great element of the firefights in 0.98 was squad leaders who lost their men would be forced to retreat in order to drop a rally point. The more I play, the more I feel the new RP system is terrible. It removes a ton of tactical game-play away.

I suggest we try out both versions of the rally point or more. Now that we have the launcher and can test these changes out, can the Dev's revert the RP system at some point during the open beta before putting up a vote on this in the forums?

PR should not be pandering to people that can't or won't play ARMA

You do realise that people who play ARMA often play without any spawn at all? With FOBs it's already not ARMA, not even close to ARMA, but with a current rallypoint system it's already not PR IMO.
I'm playing this mod just for one year, so I'm not an expert in it's mechanics but I think 0.98 system was almost perfect, except for the fact that you needed to reload rallypoints, I think they should auto-reload every 5-10 minutes.
And yeah - voting right now is a bad idea, we should wait until the last day of open-beta.

=MeRk= Morbo5131 wrote:PR's all about teamwork, yeah? How does a spawn point that my SL can shit out in the blink of an eye promote teamwork? All it's gonna promote, to reiterate some other posts, is giving up and respawning rather than waiting for your medic, or actually winning a firefight. All it's gonna promote is meat-grinder gameplay - That's not what PR's about for me. Yeah, there should be lots of people attacking/defending objectives, but that should be achieved through good logistics and transport rather than some magical spawn outta nowhere. Again, they should just be used for regrouping squads and nothing more, everything else can be handled with transports and FOBs - The changes to player count, squad size and FOB destruction are more than enough to offset their previous downfalls.

Situation: Half my squad, including the medic and leader, is down. I'm a relatively new player so at this point I think
"Well, screw it. My guys are dying because of an overwhelming enemy force (From their rally!). It doesn't matter if I get killed because I'll be back in the fight within a minute if I spawn on the rally!" So I charge at the enemy position and get mown down. I spawn. Rinse. Repeat. 10 minutess later and my team loses because all the tickets got depleted from constantly respawning guys.

In 0.98, it'd go like this

"Half my squad, including the SL and medic are down, but we've inflicted a couple of casualties on the enemy side too. I'm a relatively new player, so I'll try my best to stay alive and retrieve that medic kit. If we all go down, it's gonna take a few minutes to get back here." So, I get the medic kit, but get killed along with the remainder of my squad. The SL has us respawn on the carrier, where a helicopter takes us near our objective/The SL has us respawn at the FOB which is 5 minutes' walk to our objective.

What I'm trying to demonstrate with that is, any other method for reinforcement is tangible and destructible. You can shoot down a chopper, or blow up a truck full of enemy reinforcements, but you can't shoot down a rally point, you hardly get any indication what-so-ever that you've taken one out. And again, the fact that people can respawn so fast and so close makes people's fucks given level decrease drastically if things start going wrong.

In my opinion a cool way to get around it would be, have the rally mark a parachute spawn which flies over every # minutes. The players then parachute in (Maybe only riflemen get chutes - any other kit has to be requested from a crate/vehicle as normal). That way it's a lot more apparent that 1: there is a rally and 2: where it may be. If not, then just revert to 0.98, I really don't see it working any other way.


Bottom line is, if you want a game where organisation, strategy and tight teamplay don't matter, go play BF3 on Grand Bazaar and run up B alley.

I completely agree. Except the parachute spawn idea, that's just bollocks

Revert it back to how it was in 0.98!

I played Saaremaa yesterday with the new increased overrun distances and the picture is the same. RPs all over the forest and no need for FOBs or transport.
Make them like 0.98, it was good.
On a positive note, i love that RPs now need SL + 2SM with that you got rid of the logitruck rush and then just spawning rest of squad with RP.

Action Wing Vs. Tactical Wing

Action Wing changes:

-> 100 Player Servers ( even on 2km maps )
-> New RP System


Tactical Wing changes:

-> None !


____________________________________

Rally Points:

IMO, as I posted before, there is no reality in Rally Points at all...but I do accept that some people want them and I understand, that it makes sense in some way due to internet connection issues, consistant player flow on puplic servers, etc. I think you should go back to the 0.98 system!!! That would be a compromise for the tactical orientated players in PR because of the 100 Player change!

_______________________________________________

Boring as hell:

For me, running around through forests isn't boring at all. The first time I played PR I was amazed by walking around with my squad for about 5-10 min. and not having enemy contact at all. THATs what got me into PR !!!
If running around is boring for some of you guys I don't understand why your are not complaining about the big map sizes and non steady Spawn Points in bases, like in BF2 Vanilla? I really don't get the shout out for more and more action...

_____________________________________

Play ARMA !

And no, I will not play ARMA, because for me, it's too buggy and not so well playable!

____________________________________

Losing Players

PR is "losing" players because BF2 in general is losing players. The engine and the graphics are getting old compared to new blockbuster games. And for many people graphics are very very important, so they switch. It's normal, has always been like that and will always be like that! And I predict that PR will lose even more players in future, due to the fact, that a new console generation is coming and there will be a bigger jump in graphics than in the last couple of years!

Coconut wrote:Action Wing Vs. Tactical Wing

Action Wing changes:

-> 100 Player Servers ( even on 2km maps )
-> New RP System


Tactical Wing changes:

-> None !


____________________________________

Rally Points:

IMO, as I posted before, there is no reality in Rally Points at all...but I do accept that some people want them and I understand, that it makes sense in some way due to internet connection issues, consistant player flow on puplic servers, etc. I think you should go back to the 0.98 system!!! That would be a compromise for the tactical orientated players in PR because of the 100 Player change!

_______________________________________________

Boring as hell:

For me, running around through forests isn't boring at all. The first time I played PR I was amazed by walking around with my squad for about 5-10 min. and not having enemy contact at all. THATs what got me into PR !!!
If running around is boring for some of you guys I don't understand why your are not complaining about the big map sizes and non steady Spawn Points in bases, like in BF2 Vanilla? I really don't get the shout out for more and more action...

_____________________________________

Play ARMA !

And no, I will not play ARMA, because for me, it's too buggy and not so well playable!

____________________________________

Losing Players

PR is "losing" players because BF2 in general is losing players. The engine and the graphics are getting old compared to new blockbuster games. And for many people graphics are very very important, so they switch. It's normal and was it was always like that and will be! And I predict that PR will lose even more players in future, due to the fact, that a new console generation is coming and there will be a bigger jump in graphics than in the last couple of years!

Good post!

The "losing player" aspect is also important to delimit from normal action titels that are to 99% out there and they have "better" graphics. But PR can massivly get points at the gameplay. And for that PR need to delimit by tactic, realism, some action and teamwork.
And to hold its true playerbase/s.