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Posted: 2007-07-20 19:03
by causticbeat
rico11b wrote:Is this comment intended for me, or the guy that started the thread? You didn't quote anyone so I'm assuming it for the thread starter.

The thread starter. I havent read the post and dont really care to, but from reading other posts of yours I do respect your opinion. But to be honest this is one of those pissing threads that really wont have effect on game. I have full trust in the DEV team, both their ability and direction, and I think that the discussion in this thread is kind of irrelevant with that considered.

Posted: 2007-07-20 19:13
by Lampshade111
causticbeat wrote:The thread starter. I havent read the post and dont really care to, but from reading other posts of yours I do respect your opinion. But to be honest this is one of those pissing threads that really wont have effect on game. I have full trust in the DEV team, both their ability and direction, and I think that the discussion in this thread is kind of irrelevant with that considered.
That sort of defeats the purpose of what is supposed to be a "community" mod. Developer worship is a waste of time and can only hurt the mod.

Posted: 2007-07-20 19:17
by Wolfe
Before we start to load our scoped rifles and shoot each other, let's remember the point of this thread.

Regardless of experience in weaponry, the military, or whining, the truth remains that it's IMPOSSIBLE to run, get shot at, then turn, drop, and and aim at someone's head with a better then 70% chance to hit. If anyone thinks that ability should remain in the game because "weapons are that accurate" then I call bullshit and show me any story, picture, or video where that is the norm as much as it is in PR. Otherwise, that argument is over and the best solution I've heard to date is increasing the cone of fire while moving and requiring time for the cone to close to a point while kneeling, laying, or during firing.

As for scopes, it is my understanding that a lot of work has gone into modeling them into the game, and that irl, scopes are becoming more standard issue. Addressing the cone of fire will help in this area to make them more realistic and true to life.

As for zoom on open sights, even if the zoom is "slight", it should be removed. Not that I need to qualify the logic based on reality, but I will say that during my limited days of hunting, I always preferred the open sight rifle because it was more challenging than a scope, and I don't recall being given a slight zoom just because I lined up the iron sights to my eye. If in PR giving open sights a slight zoom is supposed to simulate something, what is it? And where is the simulation of stress, fear, and adrenaline running through your veins? Remove the zoom on open sights.

The bottom line is that weapons are very accurate in real life, and I've seen people with the ability to simultaneously toss up 8 clay pigeons and shoot them 1 at a time with a pump action shotgun before they hit the ground. I've seen snipers be less than 2" off the mark at over a mile out, and competition shooters draw their weapon and fire 8 shots in less than 2 seconds at a 4 inch target 50 meters out. These are all possible, but they are exceptions to the rule and should not be used as arguments to justify the current level of accuracy in PR.

Posted: 2007-07-20 19:26
by VipersGhost
Look Wolf, I agree with you and get what you are getting at. I think most everyone does including the devs.

The slight zoom simulates closing one eye and focusing from what I'm told..I know when I bead down on an iron site it doesn't zoom but the world around me sure gets a LOT smaller. So this simulates this...the zoom doesn't do anything really anyways.

As far as player potential, previously we have never had an animator. This GREATLY limited PR development in areas like proning, and insta-aiming...maybe even weapon-sway. Now that Spearhead is here, there might be some possible solutions for these things...especially the insta-aim after proning. In the future weapons will have an animation similar to the support gun I think...this will prevent some of the gheyness you are reffering too. The things you are talking about aren't related to the accuracy of the guns, but more to the incredible abilities the players themselves have. Yes these are a problem, but hopefully we will see some changes for these in the future. Remember the game is .6...and a work in progress. No one is disagreeing with you and saying these aren't issues...its just that the solution is slow in coming and modeling in some random deviation beyond standard MOA etc etc is just a bad quick fix. So be patient, trust me the devs are well aware of this problem.

Posted: 2007-07-20 19:47
by Wolfe
I hope you are correct about the dev's understanding this issue and wanting to make some modifications. From a player's perspective in relation to fun, fair, and realistic gameplay, accuracy is one of the last major hurdles to overcome with map design being the other.

And on a side note to all and with all due respect, we are all clearly enjoy PR and are passionate about it, otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing it in length. And, while it's easy to stand on the sidelines and tell the dev's what they should or should not do, reducing someone's point to "whining" is unproductive and rudely dismissive. If you disagree with someone's point, explain why. Let's keep the discussions within the idea, not directed at the indivudual.

Posted: 2007-07-21 04:06
by causticbeat
Lampshade111 wrote:That sort of defeats the purpose of what is supposed to be a "community" mod. Developer worship is a waste of time and can only hurt the mod.
its not even dev worship, its the fact that i can read the tester forums and see threads and threads discussing this in depth. they know what theyre fucking doing and it is being very closely scrutinized, not just "OH THIS IS WHAT WE SAY THIS IS WHAT GOES"

Posted: 2007-07-21 04:08
by causticbeat
Wolfe wrote:Before we start to load our scoped rifles and shoot each other, let's remember the point of this thread.

Regardless of experience in weaponry, the military, or whining, the truth remains that it's IMPOSSIBLE to run, get shot at, then turn, drop, and and aim at someone's head with a better then 70% chance to hit. If anyone thinks that ability should remain in the game because "weapons are that accurate" then I call bullshit and show me any story, picture, or video where that is the norm as much as it is in PR. Otherwise, that argument is over and the best solution I've heard to date is increasing the cone of fire while moving and requiring time for the cone to close to a point while kneeling, laying, or during firing.

As for scopes, it is my understanding that a lot of work has gone into modeling them into the game, and that irl, scopes are becoming more standard issue. Addressing the cone of fire will help in this area to make them more realistic and true to life.

As for zoom on open sights, even if the zoom is "slight", it should be removed. Not that I need to qualify the logic based on reality, but I will say that during my limited days of hunting, I always preferred the open sight rifle because it was more challenging than a scope, and I don't recall being given a slight zoom just because I lined up the iron sights to my eye. If in PR giving open sights a slight zoom is supposed to simulate something, what is it? And where is the simulation of stress, fear, and adrenaline running through your veins? Remove the zoom on open sights.

The bottom line is that weapons are very accurate in real life, and I've seen people with the ability to simultaneously toss up 8 clay pigeons and shoot them 1 at a time with a pump action shotgun before they hit the ground. I've seen snipers be less than 2" off the mark at over a mile out, and competition shooters draw their weapon and fire 8 shots in less than 2 seconds at a 4 inch target 50 meters out. These are all possible, but they are exceptions to the rule and should not be used as arguments to justify the current level of accuracy in PR.

Honestly, I do see where youre coming from, and im just saying that if we had fucking 3d weapons all of this would be solved, but bf2 cant do it like Inf so its just not even a realistic idea. I see what youre saying regarding it being to easy to "twitch play" and run and duck and etc and fire perfect right after. but all of the prettys that make games like inf and RO so great just cant be done with bf2. And while the soldiers may be over accurate, it only pushes the gameplay in the correct direction. Even if the guns are deadly, thats good. use tactics, not trying to just spray everything you see.

Posted: 2007-07-21 04:11
by Rico11b
causticbeat wrote:The thread starter. I havent read the post and dont really care to, but from reading other posts of yours I do respect your opinion. But to be honest this is one of those pissing threads that really wont have effect on game. I have full trust in the DEV team, both their ability and direction, and I think that the discussion in this thread is kind of irrelevant with that considered.
You are correct, this is generally a pissing thread like so many others before it. I have much trust in the Devs as well. I'm sure in the end PR will mature into one hell of a Mod, what will sport all the realism that the engine can hold. It is already one hell of a mod.

Posted: 2007-07-21 04:13
by causticbeat
And on it being a community mod, in my opinion, is based off of your ability to do something, or the drive to learn to do something. Not to sound coming off as very over it, but one of the amazing thing about the communitys has been players becoming more and more involved, and learning as they go. Its not the suggestion forum that makes changes, its the people who have the drive to learn about the mod and the actual techical and engineering implications of their addition to the mod. Two that come to mind are Jaymz and Geze, who have both have actually taken to learning new skills and have contributed both amazingly.

Posted: 2007-07-21 13:38
by indigo|blade
Wolfe wrote:Exactly. An infantryman running up a steep hill at full speed then insta drops to a knee and 1 shots you in the head. Yeeeeah.
This looks like discipline under fire to me. The MEC, BCST and USMC would all be trained well enough(and in addition to combat experience) to react in this manner when coming under fire. Your statement has no merit.

When I come under fire the first thing I do is drop to one knee and return fire; if you're standing still or (/gasp) lying prone a head shot is not uncommon.

I suggest you hit your target with the first trigger pull.
Wolfe wrote:These are all possible, but they are exceptions to the rule and should not be used as arguments to justify the current level of accuracy in PR.
I would argue that most of the best marksmen in the world don't compete internationally(or otherwise) at all and are buried in various militaries around the world, Wolfe. Shots like these, while much harder in a combat situation, are made on a consistent basis by our men in uniform.

Posted: 2007-07-21 18:24
by Lampshade111
Well if you don't like the damn suggestion forum you don't need to post here.

Posted: 2007-07-21 19:47
by eggman
Haven't read the whole thread, but will just chime in with some factual references relating to how things are in game (cuz a lot of people are maing references to things that are not factual wrt how our code and the BF2 engine works).

As a point of general context, y'all have to keep in mind that we're trying to inject realism into the BF2 engine which is inherently more of an arcade and fun oriented game than a simulation engine. So this has some obvious challenges and as we inject realism into one area, typically we discover problems that creates in another area.

Again at a more sort of "directional" level is our intent to use all of the assets of the BF franchise. By this I mean tanks, APCs, helicopters, jets, etc. We've spent a lot of time trying to make these assets and their weapon systems perform similarly to their real world counterparts. This means that they are incredibly lethal, but still very vulnerable because .. well .. military budgets have taken care of a lot of aspects of game balancing for us.

But in order to utilize these assets effectively at the level of fidelity we're trying to inject, we need larger maps and more room for engagements. Kashan Desert is the first all terrain combined arms map of it's size ever released in a BF product or mod. We didn't even know if it was going to work from a map size perspective, never mind taking into account that we're trying to model 1km view distances.

As we figure out more things we can do there and more ways to optomise performance and as computers get upgraded in horsepower, we'll hopefully be able to add in more terrain and static objects features into these large maps than what we have in Kashan today.

I am quoting this part because it's a deviation from the thread but explains a lot of what turns my crank about PR:
The original "Falcon" game was released by Spectrum Holobyte in 1987 for microcomputers before many of you were born. This was a game that.. heh.. in some ways changed my life. It made me discover the concept of networked computers (at the time via a null modem cable).

In 1989 Microprose released a game called M1 Tank Platoon which, in it's day, was a stellar Tank sim. Eventually Microprose and Spectrum Holobyte merged together and geeks like me thought that "any day now" we'd have a combined M1 Tank Platoon and Falcon game world.

As Falcon matured into Falcon 3.0, Spectrum Holobyte promised an A-10 Warthog add-on and began talking more and more about their concept of an Electronic Battlefield. The vision for this was high fidelity simulations all connecting to each other to form a virtual world of electronic combat where the only thing that gets hurt is your *** and your marriage.

Alas none of this materialised. They even ran advertisements for the A10 product that never made it to market. The closest thing to an electronic battlefield has been WWIIOL which .. um .. well.. if this was 1999 might look OK .. but it ain't 1999.

I've always wanted to see a high fidelity combined arms virtual warfare simulator come to fruition.

Hence my interest in BF2 / PR and the hopes that somehow we can create some sort of concept along the lines of an Electronic Battlefield.
wrt the injection of realism .. case in point is the accuracy and lethality of the small arms. We've spent a lot of time optomising these for long range engagements through v0.6 development. We used 1km engagement ranges as a benchmark of the upper end of the engagement range scale. That more than covers the effective range of the assault rifles modelled in game.

wrt iron sight zoom. there is a SLIGHT amount of zoom when you raise the weapon to iron sights view. We're talking 1.1x zoom, effectively immaterial, just a minor "focusing" of your FoV to reflect staring down the iron sights.

wrt the zoom levels of the Rifleman weapons, we've tried to match that to the realistic zoom levels found on those weapons in real life. Most rifleman sights are 4x zoom.

wrt accuracy .. well... that's a little more complex. the BF2 engine has a number of parameters we can work with to model accuracy, but that model is not one based on real world physics, rather it's one based on being "good enough" to sell millions of copies of a game.

For example the "bullet drop" modelled in BF2 is linear. In real life it's exponential. ASCII art:

BF2 bullet drop:
-
.-
..-
...-

Real Life bullet drop:
---
....-



wrt the incongruence this creates and what we need to look at doing about it... I don't believe the right approach is to "nerf" the realism out of one area. In contrast I believe the right approach is to raise the levels of realism in the areas that are deficient.

The main issues in my view are:
- view distances
... if you can watch troop movement from 800m, you can manoeuvre to engage / avoid / ambush. This has a lot more survivability than a guy popping out of the fog at 250m.

- cover and concealment
... if I can see grass in front of me, the guy 800m away should also see grass in front of me. This is a major issue we need to resolve.
... real life terrain has a lot more places for hiding the human figure. We need to resolve this.
... camouflage. irl you are generally looking for signs of movement to locate an enemy. in BF2 / PR you are looking for the tell tale colour swatches of infantry uniforms and player models. Most modern camoflauge appears very well blended into the surrounding terrain at anything beyond a couple hundred meters.
... lighting. similar to above... real life has a lot of subtlety to the lighting that makes hiding a lot easier than it does in the game engine. Generally I think soldier bodies are too reflective of light and many maps have areas that are too brightly lit (for example forests are quite dark even in broad daylight).

I am sure there is other stuff.

So erm.. long babble short... accuracy may be an issue we need to evaluate, but I think there are other issues to evaluate that can raise the level of realism and achieve the same end goals around game play dynamics.

Posted: 2007-07-21 19:57
by Wolfe
Too bad EA doesn't put this kind of thought and detail into its games. Thanks for the reply. Looking forward to these issues being resolved.

Posted: 2007-07-22 21:39
by tekkyy
'[R-DEV wrote:eggman']wrt the incongruence this creates and what we need to look at doing about it... I don't believe the right approach is to "nerf" the realism out of one area. In contrast I believe the right approach is to raise the levels of realism in the areas that are deficient.
Yeah! Model parts well and the overall result would take care of itself.
I am pleased "nerf" is not your preferred approach.

Posted: 2007-07-23 09:53
by Kruder
What is this 300 instaprone headshot bullshit,it happens like %1 of all the time,
yes rifles are laseraccurate but i have never seen players like that.

Btw you all complain about 1 vs.1 engagements,try playing in a VOIP squad and tell your teammates the direction of that enemy and count to three,if he is not a marksman or sniper he is either or pinned down or bleeding to death,if you see a full squad coming that direction that means a realistic firefight is about to start and 6 vs. 6 firefights are not that short,assuming there is not any snipers around.

Posted: 2007-07-23 12:57
by DrMcCleod
Stuff that is annoying:

Aiming carefully at someone and missing by random chance.

Getting insta-headshotted by some prone-diving fecker after carefully waiting in ambush.



Possible solution:

At the moment, a near bullet miss creates a very loud crack, ideally attempting to induce a WTF response. It works for about the first 30 mins of a PR career before just becoming a handy warning.
Howsabout this loud crack also includes 1-second (tweak here) of the unpleasant wobbly effect that is currently used to show extreme blood-loss?
Hence, if you take fire your choices are to take cover, run like hell, take more fire and suffer more wobblies.

This would make suppressive fire really effective, you could essentially prevent a whole squad from returning fire, forcing them to retreat or manouvre, it would also make it very tough to get the 1-shot return kill.

What say ye? Too much? Too annoying? A spiffing idea?

Posted: 2007-07-23 13:28
by Greenie Beanie
Everyone jumps on the assault in this thread saying my tactics suck, me aim sucks blah blah blah
Im not saying i dont clean up with the current system i do fine. But im saying i would enjoy it more being less accurate and have long firefights rather than just bang bang dead type shit

Posted: 2007-07-23 13:43
by indigo|blade
solodude23 wrote:indigo|blade, you would sure as hell instantly drop to your knee and return fire....but your sure as hell not going to be as PERFECTLY accurate as the gun is, You miss the point too. Why is everyone missing the point? Its not about that fact that the person up the hill sucks or w/e, and I'm not saying that the guns themselves should be less accurate. This can happen to anyone/ It happens to both the best and the worst players. Many times while in-game I'll get shot once by some poor guy a few hundred meters away once. I see him...crouch...and get a headshot before he can even begin to pull his second shot off.
All I hear is whining about someone else being faster and more accurate with a mouse than you; deal with it, you'll be a much happier individual. Most of us have all had to deal with the undeniably accurate guns of the vanilla players coming over here; all you need to do is play more and whine less. Practice makes perfect.

Oh and before you tell me I'm missing the point again, even if the Devs changed things to exactly to how you would like them to be, you'd still have to adapt to another new style of gunfight. Then we'd have come full circle back to my original point: Practice makes perfect.

In addition, I highly doubt you would all of the sudden be completely submissive the next time a player caps your helmet after your shots went wide because of your own brand new bullet devation table.
solodude23 wrote:blade, going by your sig, I'm assuming your in the Marines?
No I am not a Marine, my signature is from a USMC recruiting poster my roomate had in college before he left for USMC Officers Boot Camp.

Posted: 2007-07-23 13:47
by indigo|blade
Oh and Beanie, I like to hit the targets I put my crosshairs onto, if you want your shots to be randomized, I suggest you go play a MMORPG and let the game roll dice for you.

The games already last 2+ hours! You must have a lot more time than me to sit at the computer and play a game.