PRTA EU{1,2} - [CLOSED]

[Wicca]

This was done by one of our admins in a quick attempt to rescue the server of dying with a 4k map. he had only a few seconds in which he made a small mistake by choosing Tad Sae Vietnam instead of Tad Sae standard.

Accidents happen.

it was not me btw

Bullshit! It was totally you

It was Akiba. He is forgiven. Shit like that happens, sorry that people dont like Vietnam

[Knallkopp_02]

i do not think that they dont like Vietnam, its the problem that they dont have Vietnam.

Regards

[Wicca]

i do not think that they dont like Vietnam, its the problem that they dont have Vietnam.

Regards

Yeah true. We will adress the issue.

[Web_cole]

Had some good rounds on PRTA of late. Unfortunately somewhat marred by how hilariously screwed up the server config is right now, e.g. end of round scoreboards that show nothing or the score from 3 rounds previous, the autobalance or lack thereof being a particular game breaker, often multiple times in a round.

[Wicca]

Had some good rounds on PRTA of late. Unfortunately somewhat marred by how hilariously screwed up the server config is right now, e.g. end of round scoreboards that show nothing or the score from 3 rounds previous, the autobalance or lack thereof being a particular game breaker, often multiple times in a round.

We have the 762 ranking and working on a new AD framework code from Tema. If we didnt have that code the server would crash. And we are very aware and working on this issue.

The end of round scoreboards is something I have to inform 762 about.

[Wicca]

Mongol and Duke please try to follow the admin commands. If you fail to do so in the future you will no longer be welcome on our server.

[Mongolian_dude]

Just had an admin disband my Kiowa squad and demand that I hand it over to his CAS squad. He claims that the server regards it as a CAS vehicle, when it is clearly defined by Project Reality as an Arial Reconnaissance Vehicle (by looking at the assets on the loading map, it is clear it is not a transport, nor a CAS asset).

His squad proceeded to one-man it (so it was not used to its full recon capacity), and as you would expect, it was shortly lost to enemy fire as it is not armoured or armed to fulfil the role as a dedicated CAS aircraft. I would have thought it obvious that the AH-64D Apaches were for this purpose, while the kiowa relays information and LZR targets as per RL.

It is displeasing to experience this, as PRTA is one of my fav servers and I would hate to see it marred by anything akin to what at the time seemed like admin bias.

If this truly is in the server rules that itis considered 'CAS', I would urge admins the reconsider as the imminent loss of the Kiowa highlights how inadequate it is in this role.


...mongol...

[Wicca]

PR Server Rules - Wiki - PR Teamwork Alliance

Here, read our rules. It states nothing about the Kiowa, or other light helicopters. CAS is referred to as close air support. We do not have detailed rules that cover all assets on all maps, since we consider the use of such rules unnecessary and overly too much to remember for admins and gamers alike.

If you want us to add recon squads to be incharge of the KIOWA and other similar light helicopters please suggest it on our forum and we will vote over it. I will not base a change of rule over something as trivial as this.

And as a personal oppinion, the Kiowa has Laser Guided missiles, making it more prone to the use of air support rather than looking for and spotting other veichles. And due to the limited size of the game and engine, it is not realistic to implement rules that force the veichle into such a role.

[Duke]

In this case Wicca it was the Kiowa with hydras and .50 cal rather than ATGMs.

Technically in PR, as in RL, the Kiowa is an armed reconnaissance helicopter, hence the second seat, 360 degree thermals/optics, and lasing capability. I would then argue that, under your own rules:

3.3 All vehicles have to be manned with their minimum crew they require to work appropriately.

In which case one-manning is inappropriate. Even ignoring the above, the lack of specific rules for the Kiowa suggest that your own admin was out of line for forcing it into a squad with his clanmates rather than the dedicated squad set up by myself and Mongol.

As you say, its a minor issue, but perhaps having your admins be a little less pedantic might improve the experience for all.

[Mongolian_dude]

Wicca;1801297']PR Server Rules - Wiki - PR Teamwork Alliance

Here, read our rules. It states nothing about the Kiowa, or other light helicopters. CAS is referred to as close air support. We do not have detailed rules that cover all assets on all maps, since we consider the use of such rules unnecessary and overly too much to remember for admins and gamers alike.

If you want us to add recon squads to be incharge of the KIOWA and other similar light helicopters please suggest it on our forum and we will vote over it. I will not base a change of rule over something as trivial as this.

And as a personal oppinion, the Kiowa has Laser Guided missiles, making it more prone to the use of air support rather than looking for and spotting other veichles. And due to the limited size of the game and engine, it is not realistic to implement rules that force the veichle into such a role.

Thanks for replying so quickly, Wiccs.

The map was Kashan Alt Layer, meaning that it was not the CAS ATGM/Hellfire variant of the Kiowa but in fact the recon bird which is armed with nothing more than a M3 .50 and a pod of 7 hydras. If it were the standard Kashan layer where the Kiowa is equipped to combat armoured vehicles, I would understand this logic. Alas, this was not the case. These and other relevant points were explained in detail to the admin in question, however were either ignored or improperly addressed.


While revising the rules fully, I would add that the following PRTA rules were violated in this instance and can hopefully be avoided in the future with discussion of the relevant feedback:

1.4.1: This is subjective, but the admin decision resulted in all following PRTA rules violations.

3.1 The Kiowa was assumed by the Close Air Support Squad, despite there being an appropriately named Kiowa Squad, dedicated to Arial Recon.

3.2 Subjective again that it was manned by trained, but the vehicle was used as a CAS aircraft and fell to AA/AAA fire as it was insufficiently equipped to fulfil this role. The asset lasted no longer than several minutes doing this.

3.3 The vehicle was not manned with its minimum crew. The operate the unique and highly capable observation and targeting systems, the Kiowa requires two personnel (of which my squad consisted of two). Instead, it was manned with a single pilot who was resultantly unaware of threats on the battlefield.

3.5 The CAS squad that assumed command of the Kiowa numbered at times 5-6 players. Assuming they would be occupied with piloting both AH-64Ds while the SL acts as forward observer, this is insufficient players within this locked squad to fully operate the Kiowa also (see 3.3).

8.1 The view that the Kiowa is not an aerial recon vehicle, but instead a CAS aircraft (and its employment as such) conflicts with the rule that players are "expected to play Project Reality the way it was meant to be played", as you can easily extrapolate the vehicles defined role (or simply, the way it is meant to be used) by the asset layout page, the asset's capabilities and its RL employment.

8.6 For obvious reasons.

I would agree that this particular incident is trivial, but I think it highlights some urgent areas that would benefit from feedback and discussion.


...mongol...

[Knallkopp_02]

Had some good rounds on PRTA of late. Unfortunately somewhat marred by how hilariously screwed up the server config is right now, e.g. end of round scoreboards that show nothing or the score from 3 rounds previous, the autobalance or lack thereof being a particular game breaker, often multiple times in a round.

Ok, we will look into the code, to find the problem with the not shown stats at the end of the round.

Maybe you can help us: On witch maps did this problem occur?
Mapname Mode Size?

And if the problem occures, is the problem gone in the next round?

Regards Knallkopp_02

[Wicca]

Its not a requierment to seat a chopper with optics to fly it. And it has weapons making it Close Air support.
Our rules does not have a rule regarding this, the admin responded appropriatly, and I really think you guys were in the wrong here. If you cant accept it, make a thread on our forum.

Also knallkopp, i think the issue is that the scores come 3 rounds late or similar.

CAS, TRANS, TANK, APC.

Those four squad names are reserved assets on our server. Not all of them are always used, but it covers the basics.
The helicopters co seat does not have a weapon similar with the attack huey, meaning it is not required to be used by a 2 man team.

If the co seat had a weapon, then it would be appropriate. I can not vouch for everyones skill, but the common requierment of manning air veichles is the ability to take off and land without crashing, and do missions requested by the team.

PR is being played on our server, communications and teamwork is more important to us than naming squads appropriatly. I sometimes have games where everyone is infantry, leaving assets up for the taking. And due to the high level of cooperation I can simply ask the team if they want me to go Tanking/APCing or similar to fill the need in the field.

And as such, you fail to read our rules, or you find them work your way. But the general idea of our server is, The admin is always right. Regardless of rules, and the players are in their mercy.

I have now explained the ruleset for you, and you must understand that creating the "kiowa" squad, and claiming the asset. Is not acceptable in PRTA. However, had you claimed it before the CAS squad was made It would make perfect sense, in this case it did not.

As far as we are concerned this matter is over and I wish you have a good day.

[Knallkopp_02]

verry strange, some rounds everythink is ok, but then the problem occues suddenly, looks like the stats would be cached.

We will take a look into it. Soory for this problem at the end of round.

Regards Knallkopp_02

[Mongolian_dude]

Its not a requierment to seat a chopper with optics to fly it. And it has weapons making it Close Air support.
Our rules does not have a rule regarding this, the admin responded appropriatly, and I really think you guys were in the wrong here. If you cant accept it, make a thread on our forum.

Also knallkopp, i think the issue is that the scores come 3 rounds late or similar.

By that logic, it is not a requirement to have a gunner for an APC/IFV, as it is simply a transport and its weapons are irrelevant. Also by this logic you could say that because some IFVs have anti-tank capabilities they are Main Battle Tanks (with inferior armour and weaponry, making it unfit to be so). I think we can agree that gameplay and teamplay would suffer on the PRTA server if APC and IFV squads were forced to disband and hand their vehicles over to the TANK squad, who would not have the manpower (not to mention suffer comms issues) to properly operate all aforementioned asset types.

Furthermore, it is important to note that the armed Huey variant is a dedicated Attack aircraft, with the capability (less capable than the Kiowa) to conduct some recon. In game, it is both better armed and armoured than the Kiowa and is accurately described by PR's map-asset screens as an attack helicopter. Keeping things simple, that huge dome on top of the Kiowa is not a party balloon but infact a highly sophisticated observation and targeting suite and is represented as such in PR. In contrast, the huey is a more robust vehicle with threatening armourment and capable observational abilities.

Its not a matter of being in the right or in the wrong, as the majority of what I have described to you is fact and backed up unless stated as subjective if otherwise, yet with explanation.
It is in players' interest to be aware of any unorthodox theories or regulations that govern asset employment and ownership on the PRTA server, so they know best what to expect and how to go about it and it is in PRTA admins' interest to hear how they affect a player's experience on their server.

This is the PR:BF2 Server Feedback forums and I think I have been thoughtful enough to give highly detailed feedback on a vital area that affect server quality and has effected my gaming experience on the PRTA server. My intention is not to take up a metter with the PRTA admin team, but instead do what I have stated (and what this forum is for) which is to give quality feedback.


...mongol...

[sweedensniiperr]

Mongol, I perfectly understand you and I hope that you understand that you can't name every squad perfectly after each asset. You could then have IFV, TANK, APC, CAS, RECON-HELI, TRANS-HELI split up in different squads.

Another asset that is used in a similar way here is the CAS-Huey. Often it is "one-manned" but it also has only, what 14 missiles? That is why I created this thread to see if the community thought that one-manning CAS-Huey should be prohibited. As I didn't get a clear answer I assumed that the community didn't really cared whether hueys or Kiowas were one-manned.

It's a tough point I give you that and I do believe there has to be some clarification in the future to avoid situations like these.

[Mineral]

I agree with you mongol on the facts, that's why I have started a private discussion on our forum to make sure the Kiowa is used as it is supposed to be.

However, the admin team will still be the one to tell you what to do. And voiding arguments with them is the best that a player can do if he would disagree. Do you still disagree, it's then your choice to take it to the forums. Like you did. But in-game arguments with admins in the server never resolves anything.

[Wicca]

Any chopper is either split into transport or Close Air Support. Please understand that the rules on an asset that appear on one or two maps, is completly redundant. Your feedback is welcomed, but until you can viably give me a majority vote on the matter on this forum or the PRTA forum, that this is "logical" on a game server, accept that you were wrong.

Thank you.

[Mongolian_dude]

Any chopper is either split into transport or Close Air Support. Please understand that the rules on an asset that appear on one or two maps, is completly redundant. Your feedback is welcomed, but until you can viably give me a majority vote on the matter on this forum or the PRTA forum, that this is "logical" on a game server, accept that you were wrong.

Thank you.

Wicca, this is the Server Feedback forum. If my post is within the forum guidelines, my view cannot be "wrong". I have stated opinion as opinion and backed my facts.

To summarise for you, my feedback is a constructive and fact-based critique of the server's rules that have proved inadequate as they do not distinguish between variables within the game.
You will have misunderstood what I have said about the an "asset that appear on one or two maps". Like the Namer IFV and the Merkava MBT (IDF), they are both different configurations of the same vehicle and serve two very different purpose, like the two different Kiowas in Project Reality. The Humvee and TOW humvee are undoubtedly two vehicles

Unfortunately, I cannot afford you the time of registering on the PRTA forum to further validate this logic, as well, repetition is really my thing. I assume that the PRTA admin team is concerned enough with quality control on their server and would make the necessary effort to achieve a majority vote themselves, if that is what it requires to decide things.

If you have any questions about intended game mechanics of assets, just PM me.


...mongol...

[Brainlaag]

Wicca, this is the Server Feedback forum. If my post is within the forum guidelines, my view cannot be "wrong". I have stated opinion as opinion and backed my facts.

He meant make a poll-vote on the PRTA forum to see what the community and rest of the administration staff thinks about your suggestion/feedback, Wicca loves his bloody votes...and hardly does anything without one. You can't expect any change without a vote

[Arc_Shielder]

I for once think it's counter-productive to divide squads under that system and therefore I'm in agreement that Kiowa should be in CAS. Making any changes in that regard will only confuse the playerbase and adds absolutely nothing to gameplay. Best to keep it simple.

As for all heavy assets being manned by a minimum crew, it's already being discussed and voted to avoid future misunderstandings.