Growing trend in PR Servers since .05

General discussion of the Project Reality: BF2 modification.
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High Points/ Fast Spawn servers

PR should have it's spawn timer hardcoded.
143
76%
What's the problem?
41
22%
Where are the kewl knives and pistols servers dood???
5
3%
 
Total votes: 189

Ghostrider
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Post by Ghostrider »

=CDU=Junkoe wrote:You could also put a license agreement with the server files if you wanna get all legal about it.
The agreement includes PRM as a whole. You should also note that, by doing what you've done, you're directly affecting the client...in a rather negative way imo.

While you guys think of populating your server, we think about retaining good players.


-Ghost
eggman
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Post by eggman »

Well hopefully there's no need to get legal heh. And certianly no need to get personal about any of this.

Y'all just have to realise that while they are YOUR servers, it's OUR mod. We make design decisions based on certain intended outcomes we are trying to achieve.

Here's an example .. we are introducing a Civilian class. This is an innovation and "great idea" that can effectively be negated by server admins making changes.

There is a lot more to it than I will get around to saying here, but one aspect of the Civilian class is that when you kill a Civilian, you are given a very severe respawn penalty. What if a server admin decides that they don't like that penalty and removes it? That now will dramatically affect the game dynamics we are getting at, not only for that class, but for the entire Insurgency faction.

And then people will come to the forums and say "wtf why is there a civilian class?!?! They can't do anything!!" And I can't tell if that feedback is valid because I have to ask "well which server were you playing on? was it the one with no penalties? Or the one with 10s penalties?" and the answer will be "the one with the lowest ping".

Generally server admins are running the mod because they like the majority of the aspects of the mod. So somewhere in between the extremes of the configurations (which are in reality not that extreme, they are just changes that have a significant impact) there's a reasonable compromise.

But we are not going to publish a mod that gives free reign to server administrators to modify in whatever way they see fit .. the game play dynamics on some of these servers makes me cringe, so we'll probably have something like 3 different profiles and where a server is password protected, no profile enforcement.
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Hx.Clavdivs
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Post by Hx.Clavdivs »

Here is one thing I cannot quite wrap my head around.

We all argue that we are having a real hard time with noobs. You also argue that the settings on this particular server is set as an "practise server". If all your so called noobs join in on this server and then want a different challenge and join in on PRO servers, how can this hurt the PR community?

I know it is not how you envisioned this mod going, but really, if it could promote and recruit new players that are die hard core players, how can you refuse it?

It is also unfair to blame this one server, who is the only serveradmin to defend its opinions out loud, rather than a lot of other servers who "modify" and pretend they do not.

This is more like "if you build it, they will come". One should say "if you build it, alot of folks that you never inteded to come, will come".

Sorry boys, been there and done that. Get over it, stop bitching and rather do something about it. If you see somebody that you disagree with, do so in a mature way and argue against their points. Not just keep repeating your viewpoints and think that they will by a miracle change their opinions.
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Maistros
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Post by Maistros »

Sounds like the perfect solution, egg.
I really look forward to playing on ONE standard platform, server wide.
Wasn't me.
TheOldDog
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Post by TheOldDog »

'[R-DEV wrote:eggman']
If I look at the response to this poll and acknowledge that it's generally just the more hard core folks who respond to these polls (or even read the forums) then I would say there's a possibility that we'll lose as much as 50% of the player population if we enforced more hard core settings.

So be it.
So be it?

Have you ever done abseiling? Do you imagine if you walked a noob over to a 120 foot cliff and said ‘your going to run down the side of that face first’ that they would want to develop the skills and confidence to be able to do it, or do you imagine they would run away shrieking in terror?

I can do it, angel dive, but if I had been introduced to it like that I would have been at the head of the que fleeing for my life. PR in its pure form is exactly like that. You get people testing it only to be horrified and intimidated by the deep aspects of it, and slagged off that they are noobs because they cant climb the learning curve quickly enough, and so they dip out without staying to actually realise they would really enjoy playing it to a deep level and actually become the players you would value for their skills.

Complaining about ‘abortion’ servers…what can I say… Certainly some people would stick on an ‘aborted’ PR server forever, as running face first down cliffs Special Forces style is not a commonly enjoyed pastime. However I would think that you would get more and better people filtering into the ‘pure’ mod from ‘trainer’ servers then you would from BF2 itself.

You know what, you would probably have more trainer servers than pure servers, all told, but if you really don’t care if the mod is popular what would that matter as long as the core of pure servers grew? There seems to be a base assumption here that good players are pulled out of servers to play on servers they don’t want to. I find that flawed.

By all means say ‘we did not make the mod to be popular’. If it only takes 2 people on the whole planet play a game then it’s a game, at least for them. However where I live, Australia, there was once a PR server (run by Bigpond). Short story… it died for want of players because as good as a multiplayer game can be it requires one critical thing above all others, players. Once it reaches a level of people expecting there to be too few gamers playing it they do not even bother to check anymore. So died a PR server.

Thus, for a time, there were no PR servers in Australia.

With the upsuge of popularity of .5 now there are two, BigDY and Internode. To the best of my knowledge they are ‘pure’ servers.

They exist because the mod is popular and because they exist they are likely to make the mod even more popular. They came to exist because of bums on seats playing them, which IMO is chiefly to do with word of mouth (or rather word of internet), not with developers ‘pimping’ a mod. Certainly mods pimped more than PR have fallen on their face. The Aussie servers have a high population of people from other parts of the world using them also, because during their prime time the rest of the world is either deep in dreamland or at work.

If you take too hard a line with what can be done with PR and thereby shed 50% of your player base you probably stand a better than even chance of killing the pure servers I play on now in Australia, so please think long and carefully before you throw the baby out with the bathwater.
eggman
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Post by eggman »

Hx.Clavdivs wrote: I know it is not how you envisioned this mod going, but really, if it could promote and recruit new players that are die hard core players, how can you refuse it?
Generally I would compeltely agree. Just the problem is that the *majority* of populated servers in North America are running a modded version of the mod.

If it was one or two.. so be it.. but there's an influx of players who are getting an impression that PR is a mod with no or reduced friendly fire and 10s respawn timers. And from my first hand experience the play dynamics on those servers are nothing like what they are on the "PROS" servers.

So I'd love to have "Recruit FFO" as a clear server name label for servers that are "recruit" settings and have friendly fire adjusted. And that "recruit" configuration profle would be one that we discuss with server admins and come up with a compromise on what is the best set of parameters for that configuration.


Hopefully server admins will co-operate and be reasonable .. then we can just define configration profiles and not spend a bunch of time on locking them and such. But I do think we'll add a liscence agreement to the server downloads in the future. Not so much for legal reasons, but just so that we make it clear to server admins we are not open to server side modding beyond the configruation profiles provided unless the server is password protected.
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Ghostrider
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Post by Ghostrider »

Hx.Clavdivs wrote:We all argue that we are having a real hard time with noobs. You also argue that the settings on this particular server is set as an "practise server". If all your so called noobs join in on this server and then want a different challenge and join in on PRO servers, how can this hurt the PR community?
The thing is that their server cannot be viewed as a practice server, because it is not. What they have is a modded server. How can that hurt the PR community you ask? If new, potencially good, players come to PRM for the first time, and end up joining a server like that, then he's only going to find vBF2 (yet again) but with only different timings...not the gameplay dynamics that PRM was designed to have. The outcome? The good players, the ones that the mod seeks to retain, will leave soon afterwards.

That aside, why is this a problem? It would be like me, going to your house (or computer) and start changing everything to set it up just the way I like it, with a complete disregard for the way you intented your house to be. I'll leave the lack of respect out of it...(oh wait..) Even if I had good intentions, you can obviously see that what I'm doing is wrong. Good intentions do not justify wrong actions.

Hx.Clavdivs wrote: It is also unfair to blame this one server, who is the only serveradmin to defend its opinions out loud, rather than a lot of other servers who "modify" and pretend they do not.
I will say that it does take nerve to come in, knowing that they're a minority, and respecfully defend their points. I would ignore some of the imature responses from the community, etc..

Regarding the modded content, although we never talked publicly about it, we do recognize that it is a problem and, even before =DCU= came in to defend their points, we were actively looking for a solution, because those server admins have done the same wrong things, even if their intentions were as good as =DCU='s.


-Ghost
eggman
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Post by eggman »

TheOldDog wrote:If you take too hard a line with what can be done with PR and thereby shed 50% of your player base you probably stand a better than even chance of killing the pure servers I play on now in Australia, so please think long and carefully before you throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Yeah I agree .. to a point. Which is why I really want this discussion to remain mature and reasonable. I don't think we'll ever go too extreme for a reasonable set of expectations on what we are willing to allow be modded server side.

A *huge* portion of PR is handled server side. And we simply can't continue to allow admins to edit that stuff in any way they see fit because it has such a dramatic impact on the mod.

But we can certainly work with admins to define 2 or 3 profiles that we provide. Doing so will give us a standard set of configurations that will make it easier to find servers to a players likeing and easier for us to assess game play dynamics feedback.
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Ghostrider
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Post by Ghostrider »

'[R-DEV wrote:eggman']Yeah I agree .. to a point. Which is why I really want this discussion to remain mature and reasonable. I don't think we'll ever go too extreme for a reasonable set of expectations on what we are willing to allow be modded server side.

A *huge* portion of PR is handled server side. And we simply can't continue to allow admins to edit that stuff in any way they see fit because it has such a dramatic impact on the mod.
Completely agree.

-Ghost
=CDU=Munga
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Post by =CDU=Munga »

Ghost, I see your point however the copyright you mention only applies to someone using this as profit. It does not apply to this situation, as we definatly do not make a profit from this. Now if your agreement said that the user cannot modify its content, then we would be in violation and would remove our SSM's.

I think this thread has run its course and I believe the devs need to have a round-table discussion. Having the public chime in like this (me included) any further will not make things better. I am afraid after a few drinks tonight someone might drunk type and it will turn ugly.

Some VERY valid points have been made on both sides of this and =CDU= will respect the majority descision from the devs.

Egg, i am sorry to see you have turned around. Sometime ago you posted about how you wanted to give this mod to the community to have fun, tweak, and play around with. I am also sorry that the =CDU= server has destroyed the fun factor for some, but I am very happy we have provided a fun server for those who...well, enjoy our server.

I look forward to .06.

Cheers.
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Carpface
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Post by Carpface »

I can't really see what the big deal is in the first place. In 30 seconds of waiting its not like my ADD ridden brain is swerving my focus until all of a sudden I need to clean a speck of dirt a metre from my screen. I like to look at it another way. When I get a kill and say, I'm in a squad charging a point, I take solace in knowing that the bugger is temporarily disposed of and won't come back in 15 secs with a convenient weapon knowing EXACTLY where I am. I don't think it should be regulated (let them eat vanilla cake) but I for one boycott any of those dumb servers by default anyway for the latter reason. The enemy has to wait the same amount of time to spawn so relax and wear your ovaries on the outside!
=CDU=Jochen_Peiper
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Post by =CDU=Jochen_Peiper »

Our next server, which will be up later this week is the =CDU= ULTRA PRO. Some of the features we will be introducing are: You need to spend six weeks away from your family in =CDU= boot camp. No Respawn on any Vehicles. When you die in game you are banned from the server. We will send a nice letter to you Mom though.

Ofcourse, I'm being unreasonable. Just to try to bring some reason back to the discussion. Would you really be as upset if we were making the more real rather than less real? Don't flame back.... think about it. Me, I would vote with my mouse and I would choose a different server. You can do the same. We won't be banning anyone that disagrees with our opinion. We in fact welcome you to =CDU= (not =DCU=.... they run stock PR). Again, your next release will surely make the PR Mod run the mod how you want it to be experienced. Until then, we can all get what we want. Isn't that GREAT!
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eggman
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Post by eggman »

hehe it's not so much turned around is it is a lil surprised that there are a majority of modded servers in NA and that the degree of modding has had such a significant impact on the game play dynamics.

I don't think any single server that is populated could be considered to have ruined the fun for anybody .. what I think it is that there are just so many modded servers that it's hard to find an UN modded one. And the degree of changes are quite varied, so it's really hard to find a server running the mod the way it was meant to be played.

I think standardization on config profiles is a reasonable expectation.
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=CDU=Munga
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Post by =CDU=Munga »

'[R-DEV wrote:Ghostrider']
That aside, why is this a problem? It would be like me, going to your house (or computer) and start changing everything to set it up just the way I like it, with a complete disregard for the way you intented your house to be. I'll leave the lack of respect out of it...(oh wait..) Even if I had good intentions, you can obviously see that what I'm doing is wrong. Good intentions do not justify wrong actions.

-Ghost
Not really.
I am not going to your home, in fact I am not even going to your server and changing things. I am taking what you gave me and putting on my server and customizing it to please me and my mates more.

Maybe you should have something like a warranty, where as if I alter it, I no longer get support (kinda like a Dell computer, or IPod).

Seriously though, it all about fun isn;t it?? So I have fun doing this and you have fun doing that...end of story. Don't be offened if I like a little extra pepper with mine.

Cheers.
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TheOldDog
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Post by TheOldDog »

'[R-DEV wrote:eggman']But we can certainly work with admins to define 2 or 3 profiles that we provide. Doing so will give us a standard set of configurations that will make it easier to find servers to a players likeing and easier for us to assess game play dynamics feedback.
I used to be a software developer way back in the day, but I gave it up because back then it was too much of a monastic anti-social pastime. I enjoyed it but I came to understand it just wasn’t healthy, I looked around at senior programmers and decided I did not want to become like them (shudder). All that’s changed now, fortunately, but I still understand what it’s like to labour on something deeply and be frustrated at seeing it subsequently used in ways not intended. The worst case of this in games was, if memory serves me, Jedi Knight(?), which had the ability to be heavily modded. In the end people would run around doing all sought of bizarre stuff, the most famous of which is probably the dead body gun that fired exploding chairs.

You probably have the right idea, the core of what needs to be addressed is consistency and flexibility, which are two things that can be at odds with one another. At the moment players can join a server and not understand how the server is going to behave. This is a big problem, especialy for veterans of PR and gets them VERY annoyed because they play it to a deep strategic level, for example knowing they have a safer window of opportunity to work in after armour has been taken out because they know more is not going to be arriving soon.

I got a dose of The Fear because some of the things you wrote I heard in my head with the voice of Smeagol doing the lines….
[TF21]Roofus
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Post by [TF21]Roofus »

More people on the short spawn servers means less complaining on the good ones.

I think we should raise the spawn times to about 90 seconds like our 201st bf1942 server.


YEAH LONGER SPAWNS!!!
Ghostrider
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Post by Ghostrider »

=CDU=Munga wrote:Ghost, I see your point however the copyright you mention only applies to someone using this as profit. It does not apply to this situation, as we definatly do not make a profit from this. Now if your agreement said that the user cannot modify its content, then we would be in violation and would remove our SSM's.
In this section of U.S. Copyright Basics you can get the correct picture of copyright. A violation is not profit-dependent.

Look for the following points:
  • What Is Copyright?
  • Who Can Claim Copyright
This means that the logic of "if we don't make profit we're not violating copyrights" is not correct. As for us modding BF2 from EA/DICE, we are deriving our rights through the author, which is completely allowed.
=CDU=Munga wrote: I think this thread has run its course and I believe the devs need to have a round-table discussion. Having the public chime in like this (me included) any further will not make things better. I am afraid after a few drinks tonight someone might drunk type and it will turn ugly.

Some VERY valid points have been made on both sides of this and =CDU= will respect the majority descision from the devs.
Agree. I will, however, thank you guys for remaining respectful and ignoring the comments from some of the more immature members within the community. Some appear to spend more time inside the forums than inside the servers.

-Ghost
Ghostrider
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Post by Ghostrider »

=CDU=Munga wrote:Not really.
I am not going to your home, in fact I am not even going to your server and changing things. I am taking what you gave me and putting on my server and customizing it to please me and my mates more.
You did not understand the point I was trying to get across with that analogy, sorry.
=CDU=Munga wrote: Seriously though, it all about fun isn;t it?? So I have fun doing this and you have fun doing that...end of story. Don't be offened if I like a little extra pepper with mine.
Quite funny. Don't worry, you'll get some extra pepper, on the house.

-Ghost
Last edited by Ghostrider on 2007-03-14 00:07, edited 1 time in total.
Cerberus
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Post by Cerberus »

Project Reality servers are getting worse in just about every way... the spawn timers, the players, the map rotations...
"Practice proves more than theory, in any case."

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=CDU=Ympakt
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Post by =CDU=Ympakt »

Wow, this thread has really taken apart the "mod-the-mod" community out there. What my fellow =CDU='ers said... and my $.02.

In favor of the PR devs, I can totally understand the pain they feel. Putting together what is essentially a work of art and intent that was supposed to be released and enjoyed unchanged by the BF2 world at large. The ovbious intent was to create a mod where players paid for their mistakes, encouraged teamplay and limited access to resources that weren't immediately at hand. It also happened to include kick-*** weaps, kits, vehicles, maps and more. Frankly, I enjoyed the heck out of the mod that way, but that's not the =CDU= way; I like what we've got too.

It is very unfortunate that there does seem to be a level of "server envy" here (folks complaining about empty pure servers vs short spawn types). I don't think the pure servers would be much fuller than they are now if all of the short spawn servers disappeared tomorrow. I also think that the remarks being made about the "quality" of pure players vs nothing but the "little jimmys" at the modded servers ain't cool at all. It simply means that the mod players don't fit the mold that the pure players want. I speak for myself, but you'll find a lot of quality players out there who are very into team play, don't enjoy run and gun and do implement good tactics, they just don't want to have to sit out a minute or more of gameplay to play like that, our group being one of them. The pure servers don't have to worry about the little jimmies because the little jimmies can't handle the pure gameplay, so why worry about them? Keep the variety, players vote with their mouse; if someone doesn't like the server they can always find another. Also, with all due respect, the question being asked in the poll is located in a PR forum and being answered by long time followers of the mod, therefore it's biased and the results (IMO) do not reflect the opinions of the PR gaming community as a whole, though from the sound of some of the posts, those opinions may not be very wecome here. Some folks just don't like change.

I would expect that the community would respect the Dev's decision to hard-code gameplay that they don't want changed into the server files. Unfortunately, IMO I think this would kill the mod; the large player base would dry up and that'd be that, a dozen or so pure servers and nothing else. That would be very disappointing to a lot of people that enjoy the game, not just us.

With 20/20 hindsight, I'm sure the Devs regret releasing the mod with the ability to SSM the changes that have been made...but as Jochen said, too late, damage done. Unless a patch is released with a more definite and strong legal agreement regarding the prevention of changing any/all specific areas of files, the servers will continue to be run the way the are; from the kit spamming 2 second respawn little jimmy stats whoring type, all the way to the moderate servers like ours.

You find a lot of =CDU='ers commenting on this thread simply because we really enjoy the heck out of this mod, and we'd rather be part of the community than outcasts in order to share the game. I would hope that the community could come to some sort of compromise, whether it be just using specific names for the server type (PROS or short spawn) or something similar that still allows the freedom to play this mod in a style not originally planned. If not, best wishes and good luck with further advances in this mod.
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