What do you want to see in a Realism Mod?

Suggestions from our community members for PR:BF2. Read the stickies before posting.
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Rick_the_new_guy
Posts: 291
Joined: 2006-12-01 17:01

Post by Rick_the_new_guy »

DarkTalon wrote:how about a health system for critically wounded players, first the available revive time is raised to 2min, however it can be shortened if the enemy shoots the body, worsening the soldiers injuries and thus, reducing his time to live. maybe to increase the medics importance.

I posted this before and still love the idea.

The cons are

1. half the players will just leave you there.
2. 90% of the player base would say it is TOO boring, so it wold never happen.
3. Players can spanwn in medic and use that time to revive everyone. (Why I want medic as a limited kit, but I'll save that to .6 hehe.

Only really good team orintated serverrs that have hard core medics and chopper pilots who would go out and aide a down commrade just like in real life would be atracted to this. The player base is not there. These guess are in Armed Assault land.

Let's say a squad got really hurt in an ambush and needed a reaction force. By the time they got there with a medic, the player would have commited suicide, because when you are critcally wounded for two mins you may miss out on getting the sniper kit later.


May work if there was a respan punishment for suicide.
Like I said, I like it. Really slows the game down and is very realistic and allows the medic to do his specific job. Come to the aide of down commrades.

Man, this would be a far cry from the assault medics found in vBF2.
(PO3) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .609) Squad Member
(CPO) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .609) Squad Leader
(LCDR) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .609) Commander


Squad Member pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ad-leader.html
Squad Leader pledge to their team:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...r-platoon.html
Commander pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...d-leaders.htm
Doc_Frank
Posts: 246
Joined: 2007-03-12 21:13

Post by Doc_Frank »

:shock: Bloody Hell! Literally!
"The torture never stops."
[KSK]Black Snake
Posts: 15
Joined: 2007-03-06 12:08

Post by [KSK]Black Snake »

I want to see a tankcockpit whit 2x zoom: - cockpit - hud -hud 2xzoom
KP
Posts: 7863
Joined: 2006-11-04 17:20

Post by KP »

DarkTalon wrote:how about a health system for critically wounded players, first the available revive time is raised to 2min, however it can be shortened if the enemy shoots the body, worsening the soldiers injuries and thus, reducing his time to live. maybe to increase the medics importance.
Not sure if this can actually be done, but something like it has been suggested before. Suggest you have a look at the "Finish him!" thread(s)...
T.A.Sharps wrote:I 100% agree with this. The 50bmg cartridge will shoot over 2 miles out, and if it hits a man it will rip him in half and fling him through the air like a pile of hamburger. Snipers also use the rifle to take out crews inside Armored vehicles and TANKS, aslo behind or in almost any other structures, materials, or vehicles on the battle field.

I've also heard that if even the round near missed a man, the air splitting around it, could cause wound trauma.

This will show you some of what I'm talking about if it works right.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... iper&hl=en

In bf2 when I unlocked the 50cal it was ridiculous to have to shoot a man twice with the bullet that is a half inch around and weighs 700 grains going about 3000fps (the m16 is a 55grain bullet about the same speed)
Have you given the M95 in PR a shot? It's really deadly. Have a go at some cars/forklifts. Five shots and they'll be destroyed. I think the M95 should be powered up, though... And replaced with the M82A1 and M107.
Image
More guns and bullets make bad guys go away faster,
which in turn makes everyone in the area safer.

-Paul Howe
manligheten
Posts: 202
Joined: 2007-03-25 21:01

Post by manligheten »

I have some ideas:

Remove the medic completly:
You don't count losses in dead, but in casualties. If a soldier is shot in his leg, he is a casualtie, even if he surivives. A battlefield medic might at best handle first aid, moving wounded and pulling out splinters.
I dont like the defilbrator magic. If you shoot someone in the leg, he will not take part in that particular combat again. The defilbrator somewhat makes sneak attacks against enemy squads useless, since they just revive any casualties.

Put all flags under ground:
It doesn't look realistic with flags by the CPs. Having them under ground is easy to fix.

EDIT: You get the feeling of securing an area rather than a point.

Make the wrecks stay:
The longer "wreck stay time" in PR adds alot, since its now possible to take cover behind a destroyed tank e.g. instead of the wreck exploding in 10 seconds killing you. Making wrecks stay longer would add a new level of complexity, since a destroyed tank in a alley would prevent any other vechile from passing. If its possible with the BF2 engine, maybe a engineer would be the only one to be able to remove the wrecks with his C4 or the suplly truck.
Since there are long vechile respawn times there will not be a major performence drop, I guess.


Great mod. by the way!

EDIT: alley not valley...
Last edited by manligheten on 2007-03-25 22:38, edited 1 time in total.
DarkTalon
Posts: 711
Joined: 2007-03-22 00:17

Post by DarkTalon »

'[R-MOD wrote:Thunder']that would be a idea instead of capping the enermy main/carrier after all the objectives have been taken you can destroy they main base.

blowing up hanger - planes stop spawing
oil tanks - stops tanks spawning
so on. nothing like a bit of carnage to end the map.
if this is possible it would be an awesome addition to the mod, more jobs for specops
Image
manligheten
Posts: 202
Joined: 2007-03-25 21:01

Post by manligheten »

I came upp with an other idea:

The protection which you get fromfine caliber fire from different shelters are depending on the thickness of the meterial (no shit).

For full protection from fine caliber fire:

steel 1 cm
concrete 20 cm
bricks 25 cm
sandbags 50 cm
wood 70 cm
hard dirt 70 cm
ice 1,5 meter
snow 2 meter
moss dirt 2 meter

according to soldF, as I remember it (the captain "recommended" me to learn the numbers).

Thus; trees should make almost no cover. Most china houses should make no cover. Jeeps schuld make very little cover for the driver. Fences should make absolutely no cover. And so on.
There ought to be a lot of work to fix this, a guess. But on maps with few houses it would be okey (like the afghan map with destroyeble houses sort of size).
=dB=O8.Ed
Posts: 18
Joined: 2006-09-13 13:08

Post by =dB=O8.Ed »

#1 Just please stay on the reality focus.

A bullet is a bullet and should kill or seriously leave the player hit incapcitated at least until a medic gets there. Regradles if the bullet came out of an AK47 or a sniper rifle. It shouldnt take more bullets because of the type of weapon? I would prefer medics take the wonded back to base where they wait for transport until the round ends but dont get counted against the teams score now that would be realistic!
KP
Posts: 7863
Joined: 2006-11-04 17:20

Post by KP »

Guys, guys, take it easy on the reality focus here. The whole no-medic-no-respawn-no-defillibrators may work well in ArmA and in theory, but not so well in PR.

Remember that these things represent something. Reinforcements and medevac. In BF2 we can't have more than 32 players on either side. That's not realistic. So we need to artificially "increase" the numbers of people on either side. Reviving them instead of someone else taking their place, etc. No medevac in BF2. The maps are too small, and you can't move players' bodies.

And the everlasting suggestion about staying dead when you get killed is another of those things. It just doesn't work with BF2 or PR.



The wrecks already stay for quite a while in PR.



A 7.62 will do more damage IRL than a 5.56. So it does in PR. Bullet damage IRL also depends on distance, bullet velocity, the type of round (FMJ, JHP, etc.) used and many more factors.
Image
More guns and bullets make bad guys go away faster,
which in turn makes everyone in the area safer.

-Paul Howe
manligheten
Posts: 202
Joined: 2007-03-25 21:01

Post by manligheten »

Good points KP.

Couldn't reviving give a "ticket casualtie" then?
Reviving doesn't simulate reinforcement, but magic. Sqaud spawn simulates reinforcement. If you are alone, there are ofent no idea shooting at a squad, since they just revive any fallen comrates, without losing a ticket and pin you down with their fire.
(And of course the removing of the defilbrator would change the gameplay. It worked well in BF1942 and Vietnam, I think.)

The wrecks stay long but I wondered if they staying for ever untill removed would be niceer.

A clean 7.62 FMJ hit in the right arm from 300 m will do just as much harm as a 44 mm Bofors Panzarpiercing from 30 m to the soldiers combat value, with the only difference that in the later the wound is untreateble.
But on the other hand I have never been shot so I don't really know if you can carry on fighting with a 9 mm stuck in your foot.
Then again, the impact on gameplay to be a casualtie as soon as you are shot would be argueble.
KP
Posts: 7863
Joined: 2006-11-04 17:20

Post by KP »

manligheten wrote:Good points KP.

Couldn't reviving give a "ticket casualtie" then?
Reviving doesn't simulate reinforcement, but magic. Sqaud spawn simulates reinforcement. If you are alone, there are ofent no idea shooting at a squad, since they just revive any fallen comrates, without losing a ticket and pin you down with their fire.
(And of course the removing of the defilbrator would change the gameplay. It worked well in BF1942 and Vietnam, I think.)

The wrecks stay long but I wondered if they staying for ever untill removed would be niceer.

A clean 7.62 FMJ hit in the right arm from 300 m will do just as much harm as a 44 mm Bofors Panzarpiercing from 30 m to the soldiers combat value, with the only difference that in the later the wound is untreateble.
But on the other hand I have never been shot so I don't really know if you can carry on fighting with a 9 mm stuck in your foot.
Then again, the impact on gameplay to be a casualtie as soon as you are shot would be argueble.
Yeah, I'm a little divided in opinion when it comes to the defibs. It might or it might not benefit gameplay.
In Vietnam and 1942 we had shorter spawn times, don't forget that.

And the whole 9mm in the foot... I wouldn't recommend it... :wink:

Good points.
Image
More guns and bullets make bad guys go away faster,
which in turn makes everyone in the area safer.

-Paul Howe
MarineVet
Posts: 5
Joined: 2007-03-26 05:33

TO THE POINT

Post by MarineVet »

MORTARS! It is a necessary wpn in combat...I'd like to see stationary or movable mortars...manned by 2 to 3 players would be even more realistic...Just an idea! INCOMING!!!
KP
Posts: 7863
Joined: 2006-11-04 17:20

Post by KP »

I'm going to give you the standard answer here: use search function, please! This has been suggested before.

However, to make you feel better, I can inform you that mortars will indeed be implemented at some point. :D

And I like mortars myself, so I'm happy!

EDIT: Oh, and welcome to the forums! :D
Last edited by KP on 2007-03-27 06:37, edited 1 time in total.
Image
More guns and bullets make bad guys go away faster,
which in turn makes everyone in the area safer.

-Paul Howe
GnaM
Posts: 13
Joined: 2007-03-27 15:10

Post by GnaM »

KP wrote: A 7.62 will do more damage IRL than a 5.56. So it does in PR. Bullet damage IRL also depends on distance, bullet velocity, the type of round (FMJ, JHP, etc.) used and many more factors.
This point is highly debateable. I refer you to these diagrams if the bullet's wound profiles: http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.html

Firstly, despite their small size, 5.56mm bullets traveling at the proper speed fragment inside the target's body, almost like a tiny hand grenade, shredding tissue, creating a permanent cavity much greater than any other military rifle bullet short of 0.50 BMG, and requiring extensive treatment to any (unlikely) survivor.

7.62mm bullets (whether 7.62x51 or 7.62x39) create a larger temporary cavity, but this is done by stretching the tissue and not by crushing/severing it. The stretching action only has major effect on solid (as opposed to hollow) organs and allows the tissue to return to it's previous untouched state in a week or two without any surgical treatment (as opposed to 5.56mm which requires removal of the bullet and all of it's individual fragments).

Furthermore, this large temporary cavity is caused by a yawing action (aka tumbling) which happens very late in 7.62 bullets compaired to 5.56mm and 5.45mm. Thus, the yawing action can often occur after the bullet has allready passed the major organs, or the bullet can exit the body completely before yawing...delivering little if any of that large temporary cavity and instead leaving a wound comparable to that of a small handgun bullet (ie 9mm or 7.62x25 tokarev).

The catch is that 5.56mm only fragments when hitting the target beyond 2600-2700 fps...otherwise it doesn't yaw or fragment; it just goes straight through like .22 magnum. When fired out of a full-length rifle (ie M16A2) the proper velocity to fragment will be sustained out to 150 meters, which is enough for most small arms engagements. However, out of short barrels the range gets significantly less; 100 meters for a 16" barrel (L119A1) and only 50 meters for a 14" barrel (M4A1).

Additionally, the proper velocity to fragment may be lost when penetrating any materials before hitting the target, from walls to body armor. Since many modern combat units use body armor, this sounds like a strike against 5.56m, but remember that 7.62x39mm (AK-47 type) doesn't even penetrate most body armor.

So in conclusion, it's not really as clear cut as most make it out to be. The common "7.62 is bigger so it has more knockdown power" mentality is just plain ignorant. Against unarmored targets, 5.56mm and 5.45mm do equal or superior damage to their 7.62mm counterparts. Against armored targets, 7.62x51 is better than 5.56mm, but 7.62x39mm is worst. 5.56mm damage is undependable at longer ranges, but most small arms combat happens inside of 100 meters or less, so this often negligible.
Last edited by GnaM on 2007-03-27 16:18, edited 1 time in total.
KP
Posts: 7863
Joined: 2006-11-04 17:20

Post by KP »

You are probably right. I don't know that much about the 7.62 vs. the 5.56. My bad. I did, however, say that it depended on several different things. Maybe I should have made my point clearer.

And I should of course have mentioned performance against body armour, etc. Again, my bad. You sound like you know your stuff, and I respect someone who have done their research. Too bad we can't model the different wound characteristics properly in PR...


Now, to the less serious stuff: Welcome to the forums! Hope you enjoy them and the mod as much as I do. Now, go on and spam! :D
Image
More guns and bullets make bad guys go away faster,
which in turn makes everyone in the area safer.

-Paul Howe
causticbeat
Posts: 1070
Joined: 2006-07-27 06:02

Post by causticbeat »

"
The catch is that 5.56mm only fragments when hitting the target beyond 2600-2700 fps...otherwise it doesn't yaw or fragment; it just goes straight through like .22 magnum. When fired out of a full-length rifle (ie M16A2) the proper velocity to fragment will be sustained out to 150 meters, which is enough for most small arms engagements. However, out of short barrels the range gets significantly less; 100 meters for a 16" barrel (L119A1) and only 50 meters for a 14" barrel (M4A1)."


that last part may be something very interesting to implement... if possible, make the m4 lose a bit of power over distance quicker than an m16
GnaM
Posts: 13
Joined: 2007-03-27 15:10

Post by GnaM »

KP wrote:You are probably right. I don't know that much about the 7.62 vs. the 5.56. My bad. I did, however, say that it depended on several different things. Maybe I should have made my point clearer.
No problem, even the US military didn't understand the wounding mechanism of the 5.56 till the mid 80's...this stuff isn't as common knowledge as it should be and a lot of people rattle off the "bigger is better" mentality as it is fact. Unless you have time to do your own research it's easier to go with what you hear, and even with research there is a lot of wrong info out there.
KP wrote:Now, to the less serious stuff: Welcome to the forums! Hope you enjoy them and the mod as much as I do. Now, go on and spam! :D
Thanks!
causticbeat wrote:"
that last part may be something very interesting to implement... if possible, make the m4 lose a bit of power over distance quicker than an m16
I agree; I've been suggesting something similar on the True Combat: Elite forums for like a year and no one listens. I don't know anything about the BF2 engine, if it'd be possible, but ideally damage would drop to SMG-level after 50 meters for M4, 100 for the L119A1, and 150 for the M16.

Putting distance and penetration calculations aside, if soldiers in most PR scenarios are supposed to be wearing body armor, I think simply changing damage values as such:

7.62x51 - 2 chest shot kill
5.56x45 - 3-4 chest shot kill
7.62x39 - 4-5 chest shot kill

...would keep things simple enough to be handled by the BF2 engine without extra coding and still be relatively accurate. I understand a lot of stuff is hard coded, and it is a game after all, so it's hard to be 100% realistic on everything.
manligheten
Posts: 202
Joined: 2007-03-25 21:01

Post by manligheten »

GnaM wrote: ...
7.62x51 - 2 chest shot kill
5.56x45 - 3-4 chest shot kill
7.62x39 - 4-5 chest shot kill
...
Can you back that up with references? Intresting to know that body armor are that effective. Of course, not everyone wear armor. In the swedish army no one but a few does. I don't believe that MEC or China afford armor for their soldiers, but I think that every american soldier has one.

It would be interresting to know if the BF2 egine can handle "less letalness over greater distances".

EDIT: Found references:

[Protection from:]
Kaliber 5,56 mm 930m/s range 5 m
Kaliber 7,62 mm 830m/s range 5 m
Kaliber 7,62 mm NATO AP range 5m, single shot

With "keramplates" are 7,62 mm armour piercing NATO standar P-80 bullets stopped.
The plates have a multiple shot taken capacity with hits spread out at least 5 cm from eachother. The vest doesn't protect from knives or canyls, but the keramplates does.
Costs 4000 kr (=430 Euro = 571 USD) So maybe MEC and China might afford them anyway...

Translated from http://www.soldf.com/kroppsskydd94.html
Last edited by manligheten on 2007-03-27 21:05, edited 1 time in total.
GnaM
Posts: 13
Joined: 2007-03-27 15:10

Post by GnaM »

^It depends on the NIJ certification level. Levels II-a, II, and III-a are considered "soft armor" and generally stop handgun rounds and AK-47 rounds, but nothing more. Levels III and IV (no 'a' in it) are considered "hard armor" and use ceramic "trauma plate" inserts which can stop 5.56mm, 7.62x51, .30-06, and most other rifle ammunition.

I don't have any references off-hand, I'll see if I can find some links later...Most of the google results are kind of sketchy.

EDIT: ok, I did some further research to double check some of my statements, and I was wrong about 7.62x39 not penetrating III-a armor. Here's a link of proof: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16_5.htm

However, the 5.56mm does have superior penetration in many situations. SS109 (the latest iteration of NATO standard ball round) can pierce steel plate even better than 7.62x51 at 600 meters.

IMO some more research into how body armor affects terminal ballistics of body armor is warranted.
Last edited by GnaM on 2007-03-28 00:32, edited 1 time in total.
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