Project Reality Forums

Tartantyco wrote:

Don't want to contribute to this thread, than don't post. BTW....



See what I did th8re?

As much as those two videos amused me, please try and keep the personal attacks to a minimum, or a MOD will step in and ruin your day.

00SoldierofFortune00 wrote:I agree. The only way I could see FOBs replacing RPs is if they were allowed to be placed in buildings so they wouldn't be more noticable and weren't overrun so easily, but even that would pose problems. Right now and even in the Beta, it takes way too much to build a FOB and way too little to take it out.

Lets face it - on public servers the FOBs are often placed in ... shall we say ... interesting (aka useless) locations.

I played a loooong frustrating round of Korengal today on a german server that ran the 0.874D "patch". For the US, winning on this kind of map is now basically impossible. Why? Because the squad's ability to move about has been crushed. Someone is bound to f*ck up the placement of the FOB -resulting in frustrating foot marches for the US team.

Please wake up (i do not want to sound disrespectful - I am VERY grateful for the mod) - there is only so much you can ask and expect from the "average joe public PR gamer". Coordinating with other squads - let alone a commander (if there even is one) - is too much to ask most of the time.

I think it's worth it giving this thing a try. At best it will get rid of lone wolves (can you pluralize lone wolf? lol) and the feeling of wave after wave of attacks from squads with a rally. No longer will you have to go around looking for that damn rally like it's a thorn in your side. I think it's certainly more realistic but also has the possibility of being really annoying.

I'll give it a try. I with hold judgement for now until I've actually fully experienced it.

LionRock wrote:I have an idea about this subject. How about keeping the rallypoint, but make it so that you can only deploy it near friendly firebases. Something like 500-700m radius. That would simulate the supply chain and create frontlines, but would minimize those annoying long walks.
What do you think?
sry if this has been suggested already, I didn't have the time to read all the pages in this thread

I think that is a GREAT idea! Hats off to you sir.

I think some people on this forum that are positive about this change are living in a fantasy world where they think people cooperate like it is something normal.. ;\
It just doesnt happen, yeah only on squadbased level, but out of that squads still have their own plans and ideas.

And just before someone says you have the commander, well noane does becouse its boring.
Thats what i hear ingame.

So why makeing changes what makes the experience worser?
Its a game aint it, not a hardcore milsim ill join the real army for that.
Its about teamwork yes, but youll get plenty of teamwork on squadlevel now you barely get any even as squadlevel.
Atleast thats what i experience.

Some changes arent made with the average pubber in mind.

People whines about the removal of the minimap and SL spawn aswell. This is nothing new. I was actually one of those who thought that the removal of SL spawn would destroy squads.

I was wrong.

Saying this is a bad idea because people don't work together doesn't make sense. I bet people playing regular BF2 before PR would have thought that. By that argument why even make PR? Because people won't work together. But they did, and this will just push it farther. Players can learn, we have already seen that.

archerfenris wrote:I think it's worth it giving this thing a try. At best it will get rid of lone wolves (can you pluralize lone wolf? lol) and the feeling of wave after wave of attacks from squads with a rally. No longer will you have to go around looking for that damn rally like it's a thorn in your side. I think it's certainly more realistic but also has the possibility of being really annoying.

I'll give it a try. I with hold judgement for now until I've actually fully experienced it.

I think that's one of the major problems with the beta that I posed. It creates more lone wolves and also unintentional lone wolves since people don't need to rely on RPs anymore and instead can spawn on FOBs. With an RP, if someone doesn't want to spawn on it in the squad, than just kick them. With an FOB, nothing is stopping the lone wolves from spawning on them and with more FOBs because of the beta, I can only see more lone wolves.

Kirra wrote:People whines about the removal of the minimap and SL spawn aswell. This is nothing new. I was actually one of those who thought that the removal of SL spawn would destroy squads.

I was wrong.

I already addressed that before. THe minimap wasn't completely removed and the SL respawn was subsequently replaced with the rallypoint. If the minimap was taken out completely, I think everyone would raise hell lol.

00SoldierofFortune00 wrote:I think that's one of the major problems with the beta that I posed. It creates more lone wolves and also unintentional lone wolves since people don't need to rely on RPs anymore and instead can spawn on FOBs. With an RP, if someone doesn't want to spawn on it in the squad, than just kick them. With an FOB, nothing is stopping the lone wolves from spawning on them and with more FOBs because of the beta, I can only see more lone wolves.

Frankly, if the only reason someone is in a squad is for the spawn, they're not the type of people I would want in my squad anyway.

IAJTHOMAS wrote:Frankly, if the only reason someone is in a squad is for the spawn, they're not the type of people I would want in my squad anyway.

You have to face facts and see that the RP spawn is only a plus for creating a squad. And its not just that, but do you actually think many people are going to wait full 1-2 minutes for their whole squad to spawn in at 1 FOB so they can all walk together back to the fight? That's why the beta creates lonewolves. THere is a much higher possiblity of them walking off than waiting. If people aren't willing to wait and regroup at RPs close to the action, you think the Beta is going to magically change that?

00SoldierofFortune00 wrote: If people aren't willing to wait and regroup at RPs close to the action, you think the Beta is going to magically change that?

Seeing how I have video proof (which I will edit and put on here), yes. Yes I do believe it's going to change that. Not magically, of course, but by systematically altering a factor of gameplay that will inevitably create more teamwork. You must realize that, while it's a pain in the *** to wait for your squad, it's more of a pain in the *** to be a lone wolf. You get kicked from squads, you can't get kits, you can't one man apc's or tanks. =/ Sure it might create a few lonewolfs, but, like stated before, most will get kicked from the squad for disobedience, and most servers have a "must join squad" kick in place. That, and admins SEEM to do a pretty good job at ridding the server of idiot players.

=) So yes, This change WILL make teamwork better as it's now become much more NECESSARY to stay together (or risk having to make that LONG *** walk by yourself. At least with your squad you have someone to converse with. =) )

edit: and usually a medic near by can help. =)

LithiumFox wrote:Seeing how I have video proof (which I will edit and put on here), yes. Yes I do believe it's going to change that. Not magically, of course, but by systematically altering a factor of gameplay that will inevitably create more teamwork. You must realize that, while it's a pain in the *** to wait for your squad, it's more of a pain in the *** to be a lone wolf. You get kicked from squads, you can't get kits, you can't one man apc's or tanks. =/ Sure it might create a few lonewolfs, but, like stated before, most will get kicked from the squad for disobedience, and most servers have a "must join squad" kick in place. That, and admins SEEM to do a pretty good job at ridding the server of idiot players.

Sorry, but video proof doesn't mean anything. I can show you a vid of video proof of me doing complex movements with armor or infantry squads, but does that happens all the time or in every server? No. BTW, where did you take that vid at because like I've said before, playing on a server gives you a different experience than another? Considering that most of the servers running the Beta have strict rules like TG, I wouldn't be surprised at your claim, but games don't play out like that in most servers.

And come on, do you really think people are going to kick guys from squads who aren't waiting for their entire squad to respawn? What if he is the only one to die and the entire squad is left alive? You expect him to wait for an unknown amount of time for the entire squad to die? And the fact is, most servers DO NOT have the "must join squad" feature. It seems like you only play in one server, but many servers don't have that feature. Do you really expect someone to wait for a blanket amount of time for the rest of his squad to spawn back in? He has just as much chance of getting kills and success as a lone wolf too and last time I checked, this game was first and foremost an FPS, not a chess game or RTS.

Those expectations you have are just too unrealistic for most of the PR crowd and forcing players to wait or stick together never works. Does losing tickets for assets FORCE players to use more caution? No, they waste just as many assets as before.

=) So yes, This change WILL make teamwork better as it's now become much more NECESSARY to stay together (or risk having to make that LONG *** walk by yourself. At least with your squad you have someone to converse with. =) )

edit: and usually a medic near by can help. =)

And I guess you don't get the fact that you can still easily die in this game? This engine wasn't exactly designed for a player to live for more than 5-10 minutes straight, so you are going to die. I've had medics by my side all the time, but I somehow always get unlucky and have either a vehicle, random sniper, or armor come out of nowhere to take us all out. You can't just say "o if you had a medic you would have lived" because that's not always the case.


BTW, I've actually had MORE success as a lone wolf in the Beta. If you want, I will post up a vid sometime. Its much easier as a lone wolf now that you don't have to worry about that squad spawning back in and hunting you down or trailing you.

00SoldierofFortune00 wrote:[...] BTW, I've actually had MORE success as a lone wolf in the Beta. If you want, I will post up a vid sometime. Its much easier as a lone wolf now that you don't have to worry about that squad spawning back in and hunting you down or trailing you.

I played Operation Flashpoint as a member of a motivated clan for 2 years. The multiplayer community was small - smaller than the PR community. We ran our own public server. As some of you may know Flashpoint doesn't support a squad system and/or commander. There were no rally points or medics. On some maps you could spawn in towns (villages really) held by your faction (specifically the "Battlefield 1985" maps). We used Teamspeak all the time.

What we saw back then were the things I see now in 0.874D:

1. Even a group of up to five dedicated players didn't feel like they were combat effective.


Most milsim first person shooters allow players to respawn.

Why?

If you decide to slug it out with the other faction you will get shot and killed eventually. Getting killed is frustrating. The interesting question is .... how does the game deal with your frustration?

Will the player feel that the game punishes him? Does it promote the feeling that it was a mistake to engage the enemy?

YES.

The respawned players had a hard time getting back to the squads (no rally points) .... it took them up to 10 to 15 minutes to link up with their squadmates. That made some of them wonder why they decided to attempt to stick with a group and attack (or defend) in the first place. This contributed to the advent of lone wolves ..... see below.

2. Lone wolves were the norm. Even if a group of dedicated players vowed to stick together the lack of a rally point or a similar game mechanism made it hard to restore unit cohesion after several members of the "squad" got taken out.

00SoldierofFortune00 wrote:I think that's one of the major problems with the beta that I posed. It creates more lone wolves and also unintentional lone wolves since people don't need to rely on RPs anymore and instead can spawn on FOBs. With an RP, if someone doesn't want to spawn on it in the squad, than just kick them. With an FOB, nothing is stopping the lone wolves from spawning on them and with more FOBs because of the beta, I can only see more lone wolves.

Agree 100% Soldier, that is my only real gripe. I could adapt to use these changes, but the existance of lone wolves makes this nigh on impossible. This is not only a problem on servers that dont have the squadless kick, you still have people who make squads just to get their own kit and couldnt care less what the other people in the squad are doing, with them spread all over the map.

In many cases these lone wolves are spawning on the FB and moving to engage the enemy while your still shoveling it! Making a bee line towards the flag, no zig-zagging, no stealth, giving the opposing team a bloody good idea where the FB is before even rudimentary defences are in place. Worse still, if the guy is easily identifiable, say for example has the M203 or HK21, or always attacks from the same place, then not only can they get a vector from his incesant ineffective attacks, they can judge from his attack frequencey the distance of the FB. If this was a squad memeber doing this from my rally, I would kick him faster than you can say Vanilla.

I have actualy had to knife my own FB on occasion because of this behaviour. All the hard work of my squad, all the team work and co-ordination with other squads can be totaly blown out of the window by one guy. I have no problem 'failing' I fail as often as the next guy, but if I fail it should be because the enemy have tacticaly outclassed me or I have made an unforgivable balls up, not because my fortunes are held to ransom by the lowest common denominator on the server, by the guy who isnt interested in team work, just the quickest way to get into a fight with the enemy.

Now if the only sugestion to remedy this is 'Play on a different server' as I hear bandied around a tad too much these days, then you are answering 'Yes' to the OP's question. Oh and for those of the opinion that this is a 'realism' change, how do you rationalise that a Rally gives two people the ability to make a magical spawn for four, over a FB which gives one person the abiltity to make a magical spawn for 31?