Project Reality Forums

nater wrote:Yes, why else would it be called wire guided?

hehe its suprising how many people don't know what wire guided really means, once during exercises in Canada (iirc) Ed Macy (in 'Hellfire') got his Gazelle tangled up in TOW missiles's wires

hm okay as for the T-90 and the MTLB they should both be able to shot moving.
but still, 15 seconds are freakin long to wait for TOW equipped vehicles.

Can anyone explain the exact difference betweent beam-riding missiles and laser guided missiles? I'm to lazy to open my 600 pages flight sim manual -.-
arent the vhikr laser beam riding missiles too?

Other then the fact that a beam guided is pretty much fire and forget, you have to guide the over wire missiles and IRL I'm sure it's not that easy of a task taking all factors into consideration (movement of target, environmental conditions, actually seeing the projectile at range, etc). I believe the delay is the 2 TOW launcher being raised (not sure if this is done by the crew manually or it automatically happens), since there is no real animation for this we just get the delay.

Murphy wrote:since there is no real animation for this we just get the delay.

Actually there is, although not in the way you say - when the Bradley hasn't been manned, the TOW launcher is "folded", but when someone enters it you can see the TOW launcher going up.

I served in the U.S. Army, A. Co., 3rd Battalion, 7th Infantry Regiment (Mechanized) and worked extensively with several variants of the Bradley platform. The 15 second delay is indeed to represent the raising of the TOW launcher. The TOW launcher is not sturdy, let alone stable, enough to use while moving. It is a design flaw of the system. Be glad that there is not a delay for the driver as well while the TOW launcher is lowered after the gunner decides to go back to the main gun.

The TOW is indeed intended to engage Main Battle Tanks at very long range, usually from a hull down defensive position. What is not factored in here in PR, is the TOW's range capabilities. The TOW IIB missile has a published maximum effective range of 3,750 meters, which can be readily verified. Additionally (and I have no documentation to support this claim so take it with a grain of salt) anecdotal evidence from NCO's that I served under with combat experience in Desert Storm states that there were TOW IIB kills in excess of 4200 meters during that conflict. In contrast most Soviet MBT's circa Desert Storm era had a main gun effective range of approximately 2000 meters. Even the M1A1 Abrams had an effective range in that era of 2500 meters or a bit better. A 3000 meter shot was extremely difficult for an MBT, and reaching out to the range that a Bradley could engage with the TOW was effectively impossible. I have been out of that life for some time, but to the best of my knowledge, MBT main gun technology still has not advanced to the point to allow 4000 meter shots with consistent accuracy. I could very well be wrong however, and would welcome contradictory information. Given the map sizes and view distances in PR, there is no way to effectively model this range advantage that the Bradley has over an MBT.

As for the wires, for those wondering, yes the TOW does indeed trail thin copper wires behind it as it flies. These control wires transmit course corrections from the controlling vehicle to the missile while in flight, guiding the missile to the target. If anyone has any further questions about the TOW, the Bradley, or U.S. Army mechanized infantry doctrine in the late 90's, I would be more than happy to answer them.

Murphy wrote:Other then the fact that a beam guided is pretty much fire and forget...

thats not true, you have to keep the laser on target until the missile hits, and because its called beam-riding, i dont think a FAC can lase targets for the CAS.
the only aircraft ive used beam riding missiles with is the Su-25T, and there you have your own laser and have to keep the target in the max vintage and elevation (is it called vintage etc? of the laser.

Zoddom wrote:hm okay as for the T-90 and the MTLB they should both be able to shot moving.
but still, 15 seconds are freakin long to wait for TOW equipped vehicles.

iirc the check interval was set to 7 seconds
*summons db into thread*

Can anyone explain the exact difference betweent beam-riding missiles and laser guided missiles? I'm to lazy to open my 600 pages flight sim manual -.-

Beam riding missile is laser guided

Murphy wrote: Other then the fact that a beam guided is pretty much fire and forget, you have to guide the over wire missiles and IRL I'm sure it's not that easy of a task taking all factors into consideration (movement of target, environmental conditions, actually seeing the projectile at range, etc)

No, you're mixing up MCLOS and SACLOS guidance methods here. With M* operator guides the missile itself, with S* - holds target inside aim mark, guidance commands are generated automatically by launch module/missile itself.

[R-DEV]DankE_SPB wrote:
No, you're mixing up MCLOS and SACLOS guidance methods here. With M* operator guides the missile itself, with S* - holds target inside aim mark, guidance commands are generated automatically by launch module/missile itself.

thats what i wanted to know?

Zoddom wrote:thats what i wanted to know?

SACLOS isn't limited to beam-riders, wire guided TOW is SACLOS too.

Murphy wrote:Other then the fact that a beam guided is pretty much fire and forget, you have to guide the over wire missiles and IRL I'm sure it's not that easy of a task taking all factors into consideration (movement of target, environmental conditions, actually seeing the projectile at range, etc). I believe the delay is the 2 TOW launcher being raised (not sure if this is done by the crew manually or it automatically happens), since there is no real animation for this we just get the delay.

Beam riding are not fire and forget. Fire and forget type systems are not laser guided they have their own targeting computer inside. the launcher is used to mark the target and the missile itself targets it. Beam riding type missiles do not target anything. they simply follow the laser beam untill it hits something or runs out of propellant and self detonates

@Stoikk: how long does it take to raise the TOW launcher on the Bradley?

@Devs: in which case would it be possible to make it so that the 15 second delay is counted even when not having the TOW selected? in other words we'll assume that the moment the bradly stops, the gunner starts to set up the TOW regardless of whether he will use it or not. this way we still cant pop around the corner and shoot, but we can still effectively ambush.

If you tried firing on the move in a bradley (for example), and you hit a bump, the missile would either hit the dirt or go straight up in the air.



Whereas laser guided missiles (hellfires, for example) just follow the beam ^^

nater wrote:Yes, why else would it be called wire guided?

The same reason TV guided missiles are called TV guided missiles... you don't see a flat screen TV attached to the rocket, do you? XD

But... if all wire-guided missiles are wired... wow... we are talking about some serious amount of wire between the launcher and the destination...

Some clarification.

In theory if the TOW missile is set up and the angle is not too great on the ground, you can immediately fire after stopping. So TOW Humvees should be able to do exactly that.

Some vehicles like the BRDM ATGM carrier and the Bradley have an ATGM launcher that requires time to set up because it can't take the stress of staying ready to fire and cross country movement at the same time. The BRDM takes a considerable amount of time because it has to go through more complicated motions and set up the sights too, the Bradley might take 4-5 seconds because it's just the motor cranking the TOW box from it's stowed position to the ready position, and the sights are always ready to go.

If you're wondering what that looks like, in PR when a Bradley spawns, look at the TOW box next to the turret. Get someone to get inside the gunner seat and you'll see it deploy. IRL it will deploy when stopped and not on too steep a hill, then automatically stow when you start moving faster than 5 mph.

IRL wire guided missiles have serious issues with trees, power lines, and anything that can catch the wire. Beamriders don't have as much an issue with this, but beamriders have a hard time with shooting on the move because they really can't, just with wire guided missiles. This is pretty well represented in PR though. Anything that's like Hellfires though needs to have the "click at target, missile flies to where you click" system.

but beamriders have a hard time with shooting on the move because they really can't, just with wire guided missiles

You're completely wrong on this irl its exactly the opposite.

IRL wire guided missiles have serious issues with trees, power lines, and anything that can catch the wire

+ possible problems while firing over extensive water surfaces

But... if all wire-guided missiles are wired... wow... we are talking about some serious amount of wire between the launcher and the destination...

and there are wire-guided torpedoes with a greater range than ATGMs

[R-DEV]DankE_SPB wrote:You're completely wrong on this irl its exactly the opposite.

+ possible problems while firing over extensive water surfaces

But wire guided systems are invulnerable to jamming type countermeasures like Shtora 1, right?

jerkzilla wrote:But wire guided systems are invulnerable to jamming type countermeasures like Shtora 1, right?

afaik the shtora is an infrared jamming system, so no. and since wire guided missiles dont use any radio commands they are immune against any sort of ECM i think.

Stoickk wrote:

As far as I remember, the CV9030N used in the Norwegian army has an effective range of 3000 meters. The Leo2A4, allso in the Norwegian army, has an effective range of 4000 meters with its main gun. The Leo2A6, found in germany for instance, has an effective range of 4500 meters, due to an upgrade in the laser range finder.

4500 m, really? didnt expect it to be this big oO im pretty sure that german 2a6 dont use any sort of atgms, but can the norwegian a4 use any?
the difference between the maximum range is also affected by the 20% longer cannon of the a6

Zoddom wrote:4500 m, really? didnt expect it to be this big oO im pretty sure that german 2a6 dont use any sort of atgms, but can the norwegian a4 use any?
the difference between the maximum range is also affected by the 20% longer cannon of the a6

I was quite surprised as well by those numbers. I asked what kind of targets they could hit at that range. They said that in 2 shots they could hit a M113, which isn't very large as most of us know. No ATGM's for us, just HEAT and SABOT rounds.

Beam-riding is a form of laser guidance where there is a sensor on the back of the missile that keeps it "tethered" to the operator's line of sight.

Other types of laser guided munitions only have a laser seeker head on the front of the weapon.

[Edit to note]Firing any form (wire, LBR, etc.) of ground-based SACLOS-guided missile while on the move is not a great idea and you're still limited in how fast the launch platform can go before it becomes too difficult to control the missile, even with a gyro-stabilized optic/tracker. Stationary / short halt is still the way to go.