Project Reality Forums

kozelsk is a town. not a massacre. PR doesnt even represent the massacre at all. i see no wrong in this, and if we are going to be that picky, pretty much no city may be represented, becosue massacres happened all over the world sometime in history.


RIP to all the victims of the katyn massacre

Kain888 wrote:Seriously? You compare game map loosely based on city rebuilt on location where 70 years ago massacre took place with no related content in it (maybe few bodies statics) to playing "nazis shooting kids in high school"?

Also you state that name of the city related to massacre is something that shouldn't be in video games, yet game like PR about killing hordes of enemy, bombing them, killing civis for fun, is ok? ;o

I'm speechless...

Like Brainlag said World War II was full of genocides, be it officers of civil people. You can ban areas similar to all WW theaters and ban all existing areas like Fallujah, Korrengal, etc. because of horrible and wicked things that happen there.

Respecting the deaths of many should be adhered to in all forms of media forever. That should be a rule, not a guide line, or we'll forget how valuable we all are.

Brainlaag wrote:War is tasteless in itself and massacres in WWII weren't a rarity, they happened all over the place in some places you might not even be aware of. If it comes down to that, we should prohibit quite a lot content in PR, because it's not ethically right (someone mentioned Fallujah). Also it dates a while back, get over the past and just honor those lost in a good way, not always looking down the bad things of the past.

edit: I worded this wrong so i edited it. War has always been around and so its necessary to create boundaries for future wars. and "war-crimes" are tasteless and normal conventional war is tasteful (relatively speaking)

Im pretty surprised you guys thought up so many excuses for defending something so wrong.

bagno wrote:in Poland we are remmember this MURDER on officers, techers, profesors, doctors, and other this is kind of history of Poland. This massacre was in time when ZSRR dont fight against Poland but 1 year leater. For us Poles: Kozelsk, Charkov and Katyn are holy place. It wasnt war massacre but common murder. Change name of this isnt hard work.


massacre

PR is apolitical. Get it. Wars are filled with genocide and other horrific things. That what war is about and it's awful. Game about war doesn't justify it, it just depicts it. If you want to ban everything that may lead to some connection with history that offenses some group then we should ban all stuff that depicts anything with any similarity to real facts. Like ppl said repeatedly in this topic - be it Fallujah, Beirut or Korengal. Also you shouldn't play games that offend you, if you feel bad with WW2 history don't play WW2 games. Same applies here. It's game about war... not to mention there is still no portraying of massacre itself in PR and there are things like killing civis and such...

My grandma was in kozelsk. and was murdered. It is all.

I'm still having a hard time trying to understand why it's so offensive to associate a massacre with something that is not being portrayed at all in-game. It's not even in the same time frame for what I understood...or the same factions.

You're just being over-sensitive.

If this was so evident as you make it seem, then why it went unnoticed all this time?

My grandma was in kozelsk. and was murdered. It is all.

So you're saying that if my great grandfather was murdered in Cabinda at the end of the colonial war, I'm entitled to tell Litoralis to change the name of his WIP map?

Get real.

Psykogundam wrote: Im pretty surprised you guys thought up so many excuses for defending something so wrong.

Let's get something straightened: WAR IS WRONG. MURDER IS WRONG.
Now - with that in mind - should we all immediately cease playing any game with violence, gunfire and war in it? Will we?

Damn it, it really gets ridiculous. One thing is to remember the history. Second is to accept it as it is.

But there are boundaries. Do not force-seek references. Coz you will find them (it's like getting from a random article on wiki to Hitler in 5 steps...). The map has nothing to do with executions, it's just a map. Created with that specific name for the very simple reason - Kozelsk District was home for Strategic Rocket Forces (citing wiki).
Kozelsk town - where Polish officers were held is not even depicted on the map.
Damn, I'd consider the Fallujah/Lashkar/Korengal more offensive - people die there RIGHT NOW.

We should not get extremist - ever. Imagine a radical Muslim seeing a typical round of insurgency in PR - some random people driving around yelling something about Allah they they know nothing about. And blowing themselves up. That may offend somebody!

At some point we have to realize it's just a game.

And as I've pointed out - the name of the map is neither randomly picked nor chosen deliberately to hurt your (or any other Polish guy's) feelings.

And my final thought: If you choose to honor & defend so fiercely the places of torment of the Polish nation of WW2 - look around. There's enough of REAL monuments and graves in our forests and towns hardly anyone remembers about.

TLDR:
I do not find offensive at all that the map is named after a region with former (?) missile base and a place where Polish officers were held- then moved and executed - there's plenty of such places all around us. That's the world we live in...

bagno wrote:in Poland we are remmember this MURDER on officers, techers, profesors, doctors, and other this is kind of history of Poland. This massacre was in time when ZSRR dont fight against Poland but 1 year leater. For us Poles: Kozelsk, Charkov and Katyn are holy place. It wasnt war massacre but common murder. Change name of this isnt hard work.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but that is not a reason to rename a map. First of all, this is a coincidence. This map features Russia fighting the (Chechen?) militia, in a mostly fictional conflict. Just because the name is similar to the name of an area where something bad happened at one point in history, does not mean that the map should be renamed. You either play as Russia or Militia, and you shoot at the other team. Everyone on that team has a gun and is playing the game to shoot at you. No part of this game involves shooting civilians, it is merely a war game.

Like many have said in this thread before, just because people have been killed in an area where the map takes place is not a reason for the map to be renamed. Nothing makes this map any more significant than the other, realistically named maps.

For example:

Innocent civilians have been killed in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. If I am correct, many more have died in those wars than in the massacre in Kozelsk. Does that mean that we rename all of the maps? No, this is Project Reality, the maps are supposed to be given real names, rather than CoD-style generic ones. Would you like Kozelsk to be renamed to "Forest Camp" or something similar? No, because it doesn't have the same level of immersion.

And in response the comment about having family involved in the conflict, many of the members of this forum are/were part of the military. Many more have lost friends and family members in the conflict. They still play the game, and are not offended. Many of the DEVs who make these maps have lost friends/family in conflict, and they don't complain or get offended about the naming of maps.


In closing, I leave you with this:
Many veterans of WW2 see video games based in WW2 not as offensive, but rather as a way for future generations to respect the people who were lost.

Guys, let's cool it down a bit.

Psykogundam wrote: Im pretty surprised you guys thought up so many excuses for defending something so wrong.

in the context of the game, kozelsk is a location. Realistically it is a location of some strategical importance. So i don't see anything wrong with having it named Kozelsk seeing as that is the location. please point out one thing that is "wrong" about this.

that said since it does draw up some strong emotions in people i don't see a problem in renaming it. after all it's an easy task, and it's not as if there aren't maps in PR that are not named based on locations (eg. Op. Barracuda, Op. Marlin, Op. Archer etc.)

Psykogundam wrote:I dont think its cool that a Project reality map is where a massacre took place. Such things shouldnt be in video games. Games are parodies of real life, they shouldnt be parodies of masscres. What if i made a PR map of columbine where you play nazis shooting kids, would you think that was okay too?

Even though new players mightnt know this information, its still tasteless to keep it the way it is because now we all know.

Second Battle of Fallujah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Normandy landings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dear doG, what is wrong with people? "Kozelsk" offensive, but "Fallujah" or "Normandy" are fine? Not to mention the very nature of the game: KILLING PEOPLE

I'm speechless, though happy to see that there is also some sense in this community.

The bigger question is why now?

The map is in PR for what? 2 years already and this is the first complaint I hear about

Also isnt this map based around the Missile base at Kozelsk rather than the town itself?

I can sort of see where this guy is coming from. However, I'm not saying PR-DEVs should be force to rename the map or anything like that. I don't have an opinion on the matter. But please, do realize that it's a very delicate matter. Imagine if PR, or any other shooter for that matter, would have a map called 'Bergen Belsen', 'Treblinka', 'Auschwitz' or any other concentration camp and you battled on those grounds. People would go apeshit.

So, just be careful about this stuff. It matter a lot to some people, so let's try to keep it civil.

some guys just looking for an insult in a map name...
if we have to extrapolate things, german faction should be removed, isnt it? Also make german/polish/russian authorities change the city names for being same as in ww2 times and used for transit for prisoners.
treblinka is a different matter...never heard of kozelsk 'till i google it. And everyone knows about Katyn..like most of pr player base.
Also, how do you know that the map developer is trying to bring this event into everyone attention, to make ppl aware of what happened, as tribute? Like I said, i googled every PR map name, trying to see the real thing.
And the map layout is based on Kozelsk's very location, as Muttrah
My point is stop looking for insults where they're not.

How about rather than making demands you pm the map maker and / or epoc and state your case... This discussion seems to be going in circles.

I will rather see some "memorial quotes for lost souls in kozelsk" on the start of the map then to rename its name. With this we will keep the name and show respect to polish peoples and peoples who lost their lifes!

Ca6e wrote:I will rather see some "memorial quotes for lost souls in kozelsk" on the start of the map then to rename its name. With this we will keep the name and show respect to polish peoples and peoples who lost their lifes!

What the hell would that achieve? Might as well fill every map with memorials.
That said, the soviet soldier statue in Dragon Fly offends me, please remove the entire map.

"Oh Im an american, please nerf all the insurgent guns because i cannot stand my marines and army guys dying, that is wrong!"

I mean, seriously? One can make my hometown map and ill be more than glad to level it with a JDAM or two because... you know... its a GAME.

I was also very offended when playing GTA San andreas, all those friends calling me the n-word. Yeah...

If you look for something to be offended by, you will find it.

No fucking way Mirko just posted in this thread

if you have a problem with a map then just don't play it... or make your own


this is getting pointless

Agreed.

TL: DR Problem with a game in which people kill each other. Play Farmville.