Murphy wrote:
In the end I feel Rhino outlined the root of the problem with anything concerning Civi kits and ROE, you cannot force a civilian to play his role properly (preserving his life). Until there is a proper way to actually have "dickers" act like spotters instead of suicidal morons who just want to get wasted
And the flip side of this is you cannot force the US team playing properly i.e not shooting every single enemy you see, thus causing your team negative points.
They are not "suicidal morons who just want to get wasted.." we are trying to spot and preserve the cache with negative enemy points. No one is forcing you to shoot us, and why would you if it cost you negative points? On that note I'd like to personally thank the auto rifleman who martyred me no less than 34 times a couple weeks ago.
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-11 16:34
by Murphy
If every civilian played as a spotter trying to stay alive and constantly feed the enemy intel then the ROE could even benefit from become more strict. Unfortunately that type of civi is probably 1/10, the rest are throwing themselves into HEIT and mortar fire or purposely inducing a situation that no one in their right mind would do (I'll sit in the same room as those RPG guys so when they get killed I die with them).
Granted you cannot force anyone to play to a specific standard without imposing harsh punishments/restrictions, but the Blufor side of things seem fairly on par with the goal of the collab/civi system. They are given a choice of firing and losing intel, I'll assume it goes along with the hearts and minds side of insurgency conflicts, or allowing a KNOWN ENEMY to provide intel to the baddies.
Most players in heavy assets worth a lot of tickets, ones that are worth more alive thanks to their overwhelming firepower, will not mind killing any collaborators and I doubt there are many changes you can do to address that issue.
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-11 19:42
by DDS
Murphy wrote:If every civilian played as a spotter trying to stay alive and constantly feed the enemy intel then the ROE could even benefit from become more strict. Unfortunately that type of civi is probably 1/10, the rest are throwing themselves into HEIT and mortar fire or purposely inducing a situation that no one in their right mind would do (I'll sit in the same room as those RPG guys so when they get killed I die with them).
The latter sounds more on par with the situation in present war time than having 15-20 bird watchers on the roof tops. Civilians are often used as shields and jihadists (collaborators) have no compunction about them dying and or the after life. Shooting civilians is frowned upon by the military. The US team wants it both ways. Shoot from a far hoping to clear enemy from cache rather than clear with infantry (boots on the ground). To avoid civilian casualties you have more work to do.
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-11 21:48
by 007.SirBond
If this gets implemented, if I play on Insurgents. I am going to be a civilian, get into a car. I'm gonna park in front of every US LAV, AAVP, or Stryker, honking at them, playing Hadji music. And they won't be able to do a thing to me, because even when the Infantry come to my door side, I'll just sit back laugh at them through my windshield because my doors are locked and they can't smash my window and grab me through it.
Also if I am being chased by any Blufor, I will just run inside of a vehicle and become invulnerable. The moment they turn their backs, I'll jump out and throw rocks and then run back in when they turn around and face me.
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-12 00:06
by waldov
007.SirBond wrote:If this gets implemented, if I play on Insurgents. I am going to be a civilian, get into a car. I'm gonna park in front of every US LAV, AAVP, or Stryker, honking at them, playing Hadji music. And they won't be able to do a thing to me, because even when the Infantry come to my door side, I'll just sit back laugh at them through my windshield because my doors are locked and they can't smash my window and grab me through it.
Also if I am being chased by any Blufor, I will just run inside of a vehicle and become invulnerable. The moment they turn their backs, I'll jump out and throw rocks and then run back in when they turn around and face me.
Exactly why this idea just wont work its a pity everyone cant play responsibly but that's just the way things are.
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-12 02:31
by DDS
007.SirBond wrote:If this gets implemented, if I play on Insurgents. I am going to be a civilian, get into a car. I'm gonna park in front of every US LAV, AAVP, or Stryker, honking at them, playing Hadji music. And they won't be able to do a thing to me, because even when the Infantry come to my door side, I'll just sit back laugh at them through my windshield because my doors are locked and they can't smash my window and grab me through it.
Oh but they will anyway. What is to stop them?
007.SirBond wrote:Also if I am being chased by any Blufor, I will just run inside of a vehicle and become invulnerable. The moment they turn their backs, I'll jump out and throw rocks and then run back in when they turn around and face me.
And what are you doing that deserves to be shot/killed? Honking your horn? Disturbing the peace? An arrest yeah, of course. I'm not in favor of the OP idea but the discussion is interesting about ROE.
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-12 18:51
by Murphy
Let's consider this from a on the ground perspective for a moment DDS.
Sitting in position just across the field from insurgents, with our Humvee .50cal covering our advance to a complex just in front of us. Suddenly a car pops over the road and starts driving straight towards the advancing squad leaving .50cal gunner with two options. A) he can follow the proposed ROE and allow the car to plow through, or worse yet detonate on the squad; B) said gunner decides the lives of his squaddies are more important then a few measly intel points.
I would wager to believe in reality if a vehicle is aggressively driving towards infantry it is fair game, as a car can be a pretty damned effective weapon both IRL and in-game. If there could be a way to script the ROE changing depending on distance from blufor I would totally get it, and that would make a lot of sense. Just allowing anyone to drive around willynilly and affording them the benefit of ROE seems too messy and not the consequences should be thoroughly considered.
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-12 19:39
by DDS
I understand what you are getting at. There is no way to probably code in distances Right now all cars in game are fair game for the US. There is really not a ROE but effectively just balance because there is so much that can't be done do to engine mechanics. If there was a way to differentiate which car is being driven (bomb vs civilian) and more negatively impact a players score but still your going to have civi's be suicidal or US player doing what they do now, if it moves shoot it.
I remember when most the time a couple PR version back, parked/abandoned enemy vehicles were mostly left alone so that it is left abandoned and not used as opposed to respawning. There is no real negative to purposefully destroying everything in sight.
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-12 21:44
by Anderson29
God damn guys.....do yall even read? "You can shoot and kill a civi in the vehile and recieve no punishment as blufor....only if the civi bails and after 3 or so seconds u kill him and destroy the car u get punished." This is the third time I have mentioned this....now come up with a new way to troll blufor.
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-13 06:37
by Murphy
It's a legit tactic, right?
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-13 08:12
by waldov
Murphy wrote:
It's a legit tactic, right?
That video cracked me up the irony's of fighting a war with rules.
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-13 08:48
by DDS
Anderson29 wrote:God damn guys.....do yall even read? "You can shoot and kill a civi in the vehile and recieve no punishment as blufor....only if the civi bails and after 3 or so seconds u kill him and destroy the car u get punished." This is the third time I have mentioned this....now come up with a new way to troll blufor.
Were talking about VEHICLES not killing civi's, hence the title of the thread.
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-13 14:06
by Anderson29
007.SirBond wrote:If this gets implemented, if I play on Insurgents. I am going to be a civilian, get into a car. I'm gonna park in front of every US LAV, AAVP, or Stryker, honking at them, playing Hadji music. And they won't be able to do a thing to me, because even when the Infantry come to my door side, I'll just sit back laugh at them through my windshield because my doors are locked and they can't smash my window and grab me through it.
Also if I am being chased by any Blufor, I will just run inside of a vehicle and become invulnerable. The moment they turn their backs, I'll jump out and throw rocks and then run back in when they turn around and face me.
not possible with what was suggested in the OP. So go reread the first page and come up with a new way u could troll blufor.
DDS wrote:Oh but they will anyway. What is to stop them?
And what are you doing that deserves to be shot/killed? Honking your horn? Disturbing the peace? An arrest yeah, of course. I'm not in favor of the OP idea but the discussion is interesting about ROE.
You are resisting arrest...as a civi in an active firefight or engagement u as a civi needs to be arrested for ur own safety.
Murphy wrote:Let's consider this from a on the ground perspective for a moment DDS.
Sitting in position just across the field from insurgents, with our Humvee .50cal covering our advance to a complex just in front of us. Suddenly a car pops over the road and starts driving straight towards the advancing squad leaving .50cal gunner with two options. A) he can follow the proposed ROE and allow the car to plow through, or worse yet detonate on the squad; B) said gunner decides the lives of his squaddies are more important then a few measly intel points
No, go reread the first page not just the title of the thread...in the above situation the 50cal gunner could engage the moving vehicle without fear of roe punishment.
Murphy wrote: I would wager to believe in reality if a vehicle is aggressively driving towards infantry it is fair game, as a car can be a pretty damned effective weapon both IRL and in-game. If there could be a way to script the ROE changing depending on distance from blufor I would totally get it, and that would make a lot of sense. Just allowing anyone to drive around willynilly and affording them the benefit of ROE seems too messy and not the consequences should be thoroughly considered.
No need to script anything. .if ur a civi in a unarmed civi car and u get engaged by blufor then u should immediately stop and bail out, wait the 3 seconds or so proposed as a suggestion in the first page and then identify ur self as a civi (raise hands) and then wait till blufor moves out till u get back in ur car...or u better run away to aviod arrest.
And dds....we are all talking about civis in vehicles here and trying to see if this suggestion is even possible and the possible causes and effects of implementation this would have on game play. I'm not going to just sit by and let people create a scenario that has this suggestion completely wrong so I say to them "go reread shit".
And @ murphy: the time frame in generation kill is the "invasion" and there were very few rules to the engagements back then. Insurgency is pretty much iraq war after invasion. Or that's my opinion of insurgency anyways.
I hope this clarifies some shit.
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-14 01:26
by DDS
Anderson29 wrote:if ur a civi in a unarmed civi car and u get engaged by blufor then u should immediately stop and bail out, wait the 3 seconds or so proposed as a suggestion in the first page and then identify ur self as a civi (raise hands) and then wait till blufor moves out till u get back in ur car...or u better run away to aviod arrest.
The ROE just doesn't really matter because all you have to do is kill a few more legitimate enemies to help negate added minutes to your spawn (penalty). In theory yes it makes sense that is if it you are conscientious about your score/spawn time but mostly from what I have seen is it's your killz n' shit that motivate players. I just dont see it stopping US from doing what they all ready do unless the penalty was short of a kick from the server.
Anderson29 wrote:And dds....we are all talking about civis in vehicles here and trying to see if this suggestion is even possible and the possible causes and effects of implementation this would have on game play. I'm not going to just sit by and let people create a scenario that has this suggestion completely wrong so I say to them "go reread shit".
Anderson29 wrote:..and so i thought what if destroying vehicles counted like killing a civi. that way blufor isnt out just destroying every vehicle they come across
what do you guys think?
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-14 02:18
by Anderson29
DDS wrote:The ROE just doesn't really matter because all you have to do is kill a few more legitimate enemies to help negate added minutes to your spawn (penalty).
I don't understand what u mean here man. As far as I know if u kill a civi u get a 2min spawn and u could kill the entire enemy team and it wouldn't do anything to ur spawn time penalty. So.....I'm puzzled. ..
And that last quote u got there on me is out of context....and just adds to the confusion. ..I'd appreciate it if u would add the rest for clarification purposes.
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-14 04:41
by Gracler
Anderson29 wrote:I don't understand what u mean here man. As far as I know if u kill a civi u get a 2min spawn and u could kill the entire enemy team and it wouldn't do anything to ur spawn time penalty. So.....I'm puzzled. ..
And that last quote u got there on me is out of context....and just adds to the confusion. ..I'd appreciate it if u would add the rest for clarification purposes.
Taken from PR manual 0.96
A player's respawn time is at least 30 seconds and at most 45 seconds plus temporary penalties. Time spent while waiting for a medic is
subtracted from the timer. Once a player dies he has to wait at least 5
seconds before spawning. This gives him some time to adjust his spawn
location if needed. These actions influence the respawn time:
○ Player death: +3s
○ Player kills enemy near objective: -1s
○ Team completes objective: -3s
○ Squad built forward outpost: -10s
A temporary spawn time penalty which only affects the next time you
die (stacking up to 5 minutes) is added by these actions:
○ Teamkill: 15 seconds per TK
○ Suicide: 30 seconds
○ Civilian killed violating ROE: 120 seconds per civilian
○ Own weapons cache destroyed: 300 seconds
So yes killing the entire enemy team and you would still need min 30 sec. re spawn timer, PLUS 120 sec per civi kill stacking up to 300 sec. (5min) Not to mention that you won't be able to request any kits for 10 min.
Penalty's cannot be undone.
for example if you have 30 sec re-spawn timer and you suicide you get 60s. until you can spawn.
If you got 30sec re-spawn and get wounded then give up after 10 sec later you got 20 sec before you can spawn.
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-14 07:21
by DDS
Anderson29 wrote:I don't understand what u mean here man. As far as I know if u kill a civi u get a 2min spawn and u could kill the entire enemy team and it wouldn't do anything to ur spawn time penalty. So.....I'm puzzled. ..
I thought the 5 minute spawn time could be reduced with enemy kills and completed objectives then I misspoke. Thanks for point this out.
Anderson29 wrote:And that last quote u got there on me is out of context....and just adds to the confusion. ..I'd appreciate it if u would add the rest for clarification purposes.
The rest..
Anderson29 wrote:I got to thinking earlier today...."you know what is insurgency missing to make it better and maybe funner to play"
and so i thought what if destroying vehicles counted like killing a civi. that way blufor isnt out just destroying every vehicle they come across (i do this quite often) when patroling. i dont know if this can be encoded into game but here is the hypothetical idea i was thinking.
say 2 civis are driving in a car, blufor sees car and engages, car immediately stops and 2 civis pop out blufor ceases fire and goes over to investigate to see if it is a normal car and not a bomb-car and thus are allowed to carry-on about their business once blufor move out. (of-course bomb-cars and techi can be destroyed on sight)
the other scenario i ponder is 2 civis are in a car/ammo techi, blufor sees this and engages and destroys vehicle with 2 civis inside. blufor is not punished. if civis got out and blufor continues to destroy vehicle and kills the civis, blufor is then punished. if insurgents with weapons were in the car then of-course blufor can continue to engage...killing the enemy but maybe leaving the vehicle or destroying it...whatever is easier or able to be coded if even possible...
civis should just run away on foot and wait till blufor moves out to recover vehicle safely or risk being arrested....
i think this will just add more to the whole shoot/dont shoot type of situations we look for in insurgency and give the already seriously disadvantaged insurgents a little help.
some pros
more shoot / dont shoot
leaves insurgents with some type of transport through out the game
some cons
civis could road kill then get out and get killed and punish blufor
civis could repeatedly get in and out until vehicle gets destroyed then get killed in the blast of the vehicle blowing up by then punishing blufor...both of which could be remedied by a 2 or 3 second rule coded in to civis when getting out of vehicles....maybe even repair stations droped form supply trucks could repair both sides vehicles to keep a vehicle from blowing up and civi running to blast just to punish blufor
i didnt think this through entirely, just kinda wrote my thoughts above, but if possible i would love to see it implemented. what do you guys think?.
What I think..
DDS wrote:..In theory yes it makes sense that is if it you are conscientious about your score/spawn time but mostly from what I have seen is it's your killz n' shit that motivate players. I just dont see it stopping US from doing what they all ready do unless the penalty was short of a kick from the server.
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-14 13:44
by Anderson29
Ya I understand where u are coming from. It made me think of back when killing 3 civis insta-killed u, but civis trolled blufor hard in those days...
So finding middle ground is key...the main point of this entire suggestion is to keep people from being like that officer in that vid murphy posted from "generation kill" because I play exactly like that...and if there was a punishment for destroying cars "not currently in use" then I would think that would deter me from destroying them which might give insurgents a better chance at winning with more transportation.
And the other half of this sugestion is lowering the civi timer after using an unarmed car to something between 3 to 5 seconds from the current 1minute timer.
So ur argument is why bother changing it...it won't change blufor's actions.
Well I disagree and think it may change some players behavior and keep them from destroying the clown cars....but maybe not everyone's
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-14 16:14
by Murphy
Make it longer then 3 seconds, doesn't have to be a whole minute. Try 30 seconds, so it will work pretty much like when you jump out of an APC and try to drop/request kit.
Gives insurgents less time to hop in and out hoping to trick a blufor dude into killing a civi.
In the end I see the point of your suggestion I just feel that vehicles respawning at ins main would solve the problem without giving another overly complicated system for players to figure out how to exploit (have no doubts, we may not be able to think of a troll for this scenario atm but ingame I can guaran fkn tee someone ingame will).
Re: ROE for vehicles in insurgency possibly?
Posted: 2013-05-14 16:32
by fabioxxxx
seems a lot of programing work. but i am always in favor of new variables in the battlefield, this is what makes pr great .