Project Reality Forums

Gracler wrote:Infantry squad leader is the most stressful role because you have to make split second decisions while under fire, the commander should never be as stressed as them when he is in the uav looking down, and at maximum he is talking to 9 other mostly self-propelled people, where as a squad-leader has to micromanage 7 lemmings

The way I do commander is helping the ones that wanna be helped and leaving alone the ones that seem like they wanna command themselves .
I do however no longer think that the commander should be "2nd" in command after the squad-leaders since the commander know the battlefield best with the new permanent uav so his orders would be better because he got all the intel he needs, and the squad-leaders are just fumbling in the dark.

The squad-leaders should move at there own pace though and the commander will just give them there next objective. Having a commander yelling at you to move forward is not helping.

The best commander is a squad leader on the ground, seeing exactly what's happening.
My most successful commanding I do is done usually as Squad 1's squadleader, part of a motorized squad.

Archosaurus wrote: So mechanized infantry, unless in open ground with good views, should sit back with the IFV and let the infantry do the spotting while the IFV is hidden?
How often should the IFV move? Also applies to APC's but more to IFV's as they are a bit more combat capable.

The Ifv moves every time the infantry spot something or if your team is advancing you get all your guys in the ifv and make a quick leap forward, just remember you need a destination that is well covered where you can park and let the infantry out again to search for contacts.

anyway this is how I play it... i'm not saying it is the only way.

Archosaurus wrote:The best commander is a squad leader on the ground, seeing exactly what's happening.
My most successful commanding I do is done usually as Squad 1's squadleader, part of a motorized squad.

I don't think you see the full power of the dark sid... I mean the uav in 1.0 . In an urban area .....yes then a squad-leader has the best view of the fight but the commander has ALL health and kit status on his left side and he can just ask the SL in the urban fight for a status report....then the commander knows everything.

I do know what you mean by commanding on the ground... that was sometimes how I did commanding in 0.98 because the UAV was so unreliable, but this has changed now.

Gracler wrote:I don't think you see the full power of the dark sid... I mean the uav in 1.0 . In an urban area .....yes then a squad-leader has the best view of the fight but the commander has ALL health and kit status on his left side and he can just ask the SL in the urban fight for a status report....then the commander knows everything.

I do know what you mean by commanding on the ground... that was sometimes how I did commanding in 0.98 because the UAV was so unreliable, but this has changed now.

I have found that if I'm not there, looking at the grunts and directing them, nothing gets done how I want it. So I need to be an SL on the ground in the fight.

Yea that's true, that sometimes helps, not always though. Some players just can't be reached out to.

The Commander makes or breaks the game. IMHO communication sometimes lacks, and causes blame to be thrown around. The commanders orders should be followed, because despite what you might think, they see the whole picture and are trying to keep squads coordinated with one another. They are also trying to push everyone towards objectives. I don't think a squad leader should idly dismiss the cmdrs orders. But when someone who's never taken the role before and is obviously making some very big mistakes (not talking to his squads and leaving everyone in the dark) then maybe take the reins. The situation dictates

'= wrote:H[= EasyAlpha;1935236']The Commander makes or breaks the game. IMHO communication sometimes lacks, and causes blame to be thrown around. The commanders orders should be followed, because despite what you might think, they see the whole picture and are trying to keep squads coordinated with one another. They are also trying to push everyone towards objectives. I don't think a squad leader should idly dismiss the cmdrs orders. But when someone who's never taken the role before and is obviously making some very big mistakes (not talking to his squads and leaving everyone in the dark) then maybe take the reins. The situation dictates

THIS

I rarely don't obey commander's orders. He is overwatching the whole damn Battlefield, why should I don't listen to him?

But, to agree with your second point, I remember a time on Silent Eagle when a retarded commander just sent my squad to that village right on the middle. I asked why the hell he wanted me to move there if there was no flag at that point there and it was in the very beginning of the round (first spawn, parachuting). He said "the russians will try to get there, just hold the place". I asked him once again why the hell would I move there and he said "I have a plan". Yeah, guess what? The freaking russians did what cleaver people do: rushed the flags FAR AWAY FROM THE USELESS VILLAGE. We quickly lost the third flag and after everybody complaining about his non sense orders, he left the command post.

We lost that round.

Death! wrote:THIS

I rarely don't obey commander's orders. He is overwatching the whole damn Battlefield, why should I don't listen to him?

But, to agree with your second point, I remember a time on Silent Eagle when a retarded commander just sent my squad to that village right on the middle. I asked why the hell he wanted me to move there if there was no flag at that point there and it was in the very beginning of the round (first spawn, parachuting). He said "the russians will try to get there, just hold the place". I asked him once again why the hell would I move there and he said "I have a plan". Yeah, guess what? The freaking russians did what cleaver people do: rushed the flags FAR AWAY FROM THE USELESS VILLAGE. We quickly lost the third flag and after everybody complaining about his non sense orders, he left the command post.

We lost that round.

The mistake that commanders make is that they try to order people around and move them like chess pieces.

When I lead the whole team from a squad leader's position (I do not enjoy "commanding") I just generally spell out the plan (Two squads West, two squads North, IFV's and tanks fire into area) and then just let them go at it. They know better than the commander where to move, because they're the ones taking the shots.

Archosaurus wrote: When I lead the whole team from a squad leader's position (I do not enjoy "commanding") I just generally spell out the plan (Two squads West, two squads North, IFV's and tanks fire into area) and then just let them go at it. They know better than the commander where to move, because they're the ones taking the shots.

You're not special because you do it from an SL's perspective. Thats how a commander should do it. If he gives overly restrictive orders then he's just bad, its not because he's in the box. Nothing stops a CO from being in the field either, but he does have the advantage of the god's eye view in the UAV. As much as you're on the front he has this amazing advantage and if he knows how to use it he can marry that with intel you're giving him on mumble to have a better whole picture than any man on the ground could hope for.

The other problem with SLs as COs is that they can't coordinate assets well because they have their own squad to manage. This is only worse in 1.0 with 2 more people to worry about.

There is a difference between leading by committee and having everyone agree what to do, versus a commander staring at a map, using the UAV and thinking clearly without the tactical distractions of corralling pubbies and avoiding death from enemies.

A good CO would take suggestions from the SLs and let them give him advice, he'd integrate them into the planning process as much as he can and keep them in the loop on his view of things. You can't do this from SL1 slot, even if it works in some rounds.

The only time the SL1 CO works is in heavily coordinated clan or tournament teams where they can be sure everyone is exceptionally competent and doesn't need babysitting. Even so, any time in the PRT I ever saw the CO not in the box they usually had someone who wasn't actually in charge still in it to place markers and use the UAV. That asset is far too valuable to just leave by the wayside.

PFunk wrote:You're not special because you do it from an SL's perspective. Thats how a commander should do it. If he gives overly restrictive orders then he's just bad, its not because he's in the box. Nothing stops a CO from being in the field either, but he does have the advantage of the god's eye view in the UAV. As much as you're on the front he has this amazing advantage and if he knows how to use it he can marry that with intel you're giving him on mumble to have a better whole picture than any man on the ground could hope for.

The other problem with SLs as COs is that they can't coordinate assets well because they have their own squad to manage. This is only worse in 1.0 with 2 more people to worry about.

There is a difference between leading by committee and having everyone agree what to do, versus a commander staring at a map, using the UAV and thinking clearly without the tactical distractions of corralling pubbies and avoiding death from enemies.

A good CO would take suggestions from the SLs and let them give him advice, he'd integrate them into the planning process as much as he can and keep them in the loop on his view of things. You can't do this from SL1 slot, even if it works in some rounds.

The only time the SL1 CO works is in heavily coordinated clan or tournament teams where they can be sure everyone is exceptionally competent and doesn't need babysitting. Even so, any time in the PRT I ever saw the CO not in the box they usually had someone who wasn't actually in charge still in it to place markers and use the UAV. That asset is far too valuable to just leave by the wayside.

Every good SL1 match I've had has been with completely random people. A whole team of them.

Now, I'm not saying that the SL1 should replace the commander, oh no, the commander is the eyes, the SL1 is the body, basically.
SL1 tells everyone where to go, the commander tells the SL1 where everything is and marks it. A commander trying to get a squad to move when they cannot happens far too often, but an SL1 CO could just get the squad out of the position and move on.

Oh and if you're SL1 and you're attacking in a complicated area and trying to manage the team, you're doing it wrong. SL1 should do the Vietnam method, and walk around the frontline and manage everyone in big clumps, and let the other SL's take care of how they do what you want.

Archosaurus wrote:The mistake that commanders make is that they try to order people around and move them like chess pieces.

When I lead the whole team from a squad leader's position (I do not enjoy "commanding") I just generally spell out the plan (Two squads West, two squads North, IFV's and tanks fire into area) and then just let them go at it. They know better than the commander where to move, because they're the ones taking the shots.

"Chess master commander" is not really a problem as long he does good decisions and has EXPERIENCE to be on charge. AAS is not that hard to coordinate on most maps, it is basically set defences and pushes. The problem on PR is that people don't like to hold places, if you assign someone to hold a position (not a nonsense one, for God's sake) they will be complaining. As a SL, I fell back countless times because retarded squads were busy attacking the next flag and leaving the purple flag alone. Yes, impatient people sometimes leave my squad or keep saying "so, what are we doing here?" WE ARE HOLDING THE POINT TO DON'T GET SUPRISE BUTTSECKS, KID! THAT IS IT!

The standard plan is not that hard, you can do it with two INF squads only. It is basically this:

- SQ1 rushes the first flag with ground vehicles (could be a truck)
- SQ2 rushes the second flag with a chopper, lands like 300-500 Meters away from the flag and leave the crate at the LZ
- SQ1 caps the first flag, requests a chopper and go rush the third flag
- SQ2 caps the second flag and go back to the crate for bulding a FOB. After building, they should hold the second flag
- SQ1 goes for the third flag, land 300-500 meters away from it and build a FOB. After the FOB, they can go attacking

Ain't that hard, you see?

Archosaurus wrote:Every good SL1 match I've had has been with completely random people. A whole team of them.

Now, I'm not saying that the SL1 should replace the commander, oh no, the commander is the eyes, the SL1 is the body, basically.
SL1 tells everyone where to go, the commander tells the SL1 where everything is and marks it. A commander trying to get a squad to move when they cannot happens far too often, but an SL1 CO could just get the squad out of the position and move on.

Oh and if you're SL1 and you're attacking in a complicated area and trying to manage the team, you're doing it wrong. SL1 should do the Vietnam method, and walk around the frontline and manage everyone in big clumps, and let the other SL's take care of how they do what you want.

Your major issue with Commanders is that you seem to think that Commanders can't collaborate with Squad Leaders while still having the final say. You also contend that an SL1 SL shouldn't be SLing apparently, which means you're not an SL so what happens to your squad? They're your retinue?

I think you just like the heroic idea of it all, but there's nothing essential about how you describe it. A commander with experience, intel, a UAV, and knowledge of the map doesn't need to see anything you see to know where you should go next. I think this notion of the SL1 on the front lines having superior knowledge is just a fiction based on the fact that SLs are often bad communicators feeding no info the CO and COs are often poor at developing a picture of whats happening absent their own presence there.

This is how it should work:
"1 this is CO, can you push on that flag from the West?"
"Roger, I can move and see"
"Copy, I got 3 trying to get up on the South side and 7 is going to chopper in if we can find a hole somewhere"

*A little while later*
"CO this is 1, I was moving up on the west but I started taking shots behind me"
"Roger, 1 I want you to sweep that tree line west of the flag and try to figure out where they are, see if they got a FOB in there, I'm dropping 7 in a grid south of you, if you find anything they'll try and help you, but until them I'm gonna have them push onto the flag, see if they can get in"
*in between all this the other squads are talking, the CO is trying to figure out how to move as much up all at once, and he's keeping tabs on the flanks the squads can't see, tracking enemy air assets or something via comms to coordinate when to fly his trans helos in, and the squads on defense are keeping him up on whats happening on the D flag so that he can be sure he can keep his attacking squads up*

Its not rocket surgery, its about smooth concise coordination. 1 SL plus 7 followers equals a lot of shit for you to manage. The only way I'd ever do CO on the front line in a pubby match is if I could be defacto in charge, with a friend in the CO chair for intel, and someone else to run the squad because I ain't gonna worry about my MG's box count and whether the medic can get that casualty up or if he's too much of a risk while trying to figure out if 5 or 6 other squads have enough intel or orders.

But I guess thats style.

Archosaurus wrote:Every good SL1 match I've had has been with completely random people. A whole team of them.

Now, I'm not saying that the SL1 should replace the commander, oh no, the commander is the eyes, the SL1 is the body, basically.
SL1 tells everyone where to go, the commander tells the SL1 where everything is and marks it. A commander trying to get a squad to move when they cannot happens far too often, but an SL1 CO could just get the squad out of the position and move on.

Oh and if you're SL1 and you're attacking in a complicated area and trying to manage the team, you're doing it wrong. SL1 should do the Vietnam method, and walk around the frontline and manage everyone in big clumps, and let the other SL's take care of how they do what you want.

There is too much Mel Gibson in this idea .

Note how Mel Gibson can't see anything even though he is at the front-line, he can just hear and feel it coming. 1 picture is better than a thousand words though.

The only map I see this being useful is in the actual Vietnam maps or skirmish maps where you don't have any uav. On the larger maps things happen so fast and on a huge area that the commander would have to feed SL1 with information constantly for SL1 to make the best decision on a team basis.
A couple of squads lead by 1 SL could work well, but the commander always knows what is best because of his perfect view of the battlefield.

And I think I mentioned it before.... the commander markers is 60sec again so there is no way that he can keep the enemy markers up-to-date.

Whenever I command. I do a radio check on most squads. Remove any unresponding SLs or people who cant follow orders.

Then I set on helping the team finding and killing enemies, aswell as just ensuring we are making progress. But yeah. If ur not following orders, ur gunna have a baaad time.

Whenever a commander starts moving my markers to the places he wants i will chew him on it. And i won't be polite either, this isn't the Army, and you're not my superior, set up the UAV, coordinate CAS missions and spot enemies on the map, but keep your business the fuck out of my squad. If i'm "the man on the ground" i know better how to deal with the situation than some guy seeing things from the UAV, sure he can warn me about ambushes and stuff, but i do not admit him going "Get into house X and keep your squad member in positions Y, W and Z".

Don't tell pilots where to land, only tell them the position of enemy AA and Armor. They don't need your bossy *** telling them where to land THEIR chopper. Don't tell Armor squads where to set up, only give them enemy AT positions, they also don't need your bossy *** telling them where to park their stuff.

If you start giving orders like you're Eisenhower himself, you'll be moved to the top of my "Set on fire while alive" list.

Henrique I think you miss their point.

Their point being telling which squads to attack and which to defend. How they carry out those objectives is up to them.

I commanded once on Burning Sands AAS.

What I did...

• Made sure the squad leaders had mumble.
• Place UAV's in locations that are usefull
• NOT constantly spamming move/attack requests.
• Just commanding the team that will have a vitorious effect!

Now, honestly. Some commanders that are on are just New players. NOT N00BS. New, players.
I have seen commanders constantly tell a LAV to go attack enemy tank. It's like having a Little Bird trans helo attacking a tank. Not much possible.

I have to give them some credit, at least they are attempting to do stuff instead of crashing choppers and tk'ing everyoen in main.

The best commander I have witnessed was a former 64 year old Marine! He knows everything of that stuff!

But honestly, commandingi a team of 50 is pretty tough! Especially if you have like 6 different clans in one team you are commanding. And they listen pretty well (JK)

I am willing to PM someone that needs help w/ the commanding skills!

Henrique_Dalben wrote:Whenever a commander starts moving my markers to the places he wants i will chew him on it. And i won't be polite either, this isn't the Army, and you're not my superior, set up the UAV, coordinate CAS missions and spot enemies on the map, but keep your business the fuck out of my squad. If i'm "the man on the ground" i know better how to deal with the situation than some guy seeing things from the UAV, sure he can warn me about ambushes and stuff, but i do not admit him going "Get into house X and keep your squad member in positions Y, W and Z".

Don't tell pilots where to land, only tell them the position of enemy AA and Armor. They don't need your bossy *** telling them where to land THEIR chopper. Don't tell Armor squads where to set up, only give them enemy AT positions, they also don't need your bossy *** telling them where to park their stuff.

If you start giving orders like you're Eisenhower himself, you'll be moved to the top of my "Set on fire while alive" list.

Attitudes like this make me sad to play PR sometimes. I've had this displeasure of playing with squad leaders who react this way, and I can tell you it leaves quite a sour taste in my mouth

[R-CON]Psyrus wrote:Attitudes like this make me sad to play PR sometimes. I've had this displeasure of playing with squad leaders who react this way, and I can tell you it leaves quite a sour taste in my mouth

Unfortunately it's a very fine line between micromanagement and purely giving intel. Lastnight I had ploddit commanding who was giving constant intel on everything from infantry to armor, but he didn't intercept in any decisions that the SL's made amongst ourselves which is perfect, leaving squads to their own devices.

dtacs wrote:Unfortunately it's a very fine line between micromanagement and purely giving intel. Lastnight I had ploddit commanding who was giving constant intel on everything from infantry to armor, but he didn't intercept in any decisions that the SL's made amongst ourselves which is perfect, leaving squads to their own devices.

PR is built around teamwork and coordination. SLs generally have a decent idea of intra-squad coordination, but the vast majority lack the will/experience/whatever to actually do some proper inter-squad based coordination. This is where a commander comes in.

The commander can make that tough call of saying someone has to defend, because it's tantamount to not losing the game. Most squads run off like headless chickens:
"Oh, someone else will defend", they just care about their own small view of the battlefield. Tunnel vision, if you will. The commander can take a wholistic view because he doesn't have an individual mission to worry about, he is either concerned with defending/attacking all caches by the end of the time limit/tickets, or capturing all the flags.

Therefore, ideally, he is making the calls, or at the very least giving strong directional advice to the team (not micromanagement, like go to g4 and look west), but things like

• Squad 2, squad 1 needs support, please assist
• Squad 7, the fob in H9 is 750m from the closest objective, please take your 8 men and do something useful
• Squads 4 & 5 will stay on defence while squad 8 & 9 will establish spawns to the East and west, respectively

And so on. And this is before we talk about the UAV and the commander being able to establish fobs himself.

dtacs wrote:Unfortunately it's a very fine line between micromanagement and ...

Squad leaders have different styles too, some micromanage, some give vague directional advice. I like strong leadership, personally. The issue that I'm seeing with posters here, is that since the commanders have been absent for so long, squad leaders (people who have natural leadership qualities anyway) are feeling imposed upon by the commander, while they do the very same to the X number of people in their squad.