Project Reality Forums

Well if you dont go head on and give up first you are pretty much fucked now because all the helis are slow as shit,the cannons are op , unless you are like really good and know how to stay out of the nme helis gunner angle.
It was pretty well balanced with the AA tbh and it WAS about skill.Evading the AA scaring the other heli killing them lol..

Inspektura43 wrote:Well if you dont go head on and give up first you are pretty much fucked now because all the helis are slow as shit,the cannons are op , unless you are like really good and know how to stay out of the nme helis gunner angle.
It was pretty well balanced with the AA tbh and it WAS about skill.Evading the AA scaring the other heli killing them lol..

Keep in contact with friendlies on the ground, get out of dodge when the enemy helo is reported heading in your direction. Fighting with AA was both not skill based and not realistic. All it took was a basic understanding of how AA missiles worked (Granted, most of the pilots in PR lack the facilities to do so), and then you danced around until the flare opening showed up and you got a lock. Whoopdeedoo.

There's a lot more to properly utilizing attack helicopters than you seem to understand.

How are cannons op? I imagine 25 mm explosive shells coming at you at 600 rpm would shred the hell out of just about anything.

I've seen it go both ways Eddie. I think it really depends on who is flying and their skill level / how intoxicated they are. After reading everyone's comments, I suggest keeping it how it is now. I remember before that without exception, helis went after helis first. At least now they know that for them to die via an enemy chopper it has to be hard work rather than a cheap AA missile. Personally I have seen more CAS with the helis since the change, but if the two helis go at it ... it does take longer, and all their missed missiles and cannon rounds hit all over the map lol.

Celestial1 wrote:Keep in contact with friendlies on the ground, get out of dodge when the enemy helo is reported heading in your direction. Fighting with AA was both not skill based and not realistic. All it took was a basic understanding of how AA missiles worked (Granted, most of the pilots in PR lack the facilities to do so), and then you danced around until the flare opening showed up and you got a lock. Whoopdeedoo.

There's a lot more to properly utilizing attack helicopters than you seem to understand.

The AA was used at long range mostly and it missed most of the times because its easy to dodge.And head on both gunships flared before they even shoot each other so it was skill.
I think you got it wrong how heli dogfights worked before 1.0.
It depents on EVERYTHING

Wheres_my_chili wrote:How are cannons op? I imagine 25 mm explosive shells coming at you at 600 rpm would shred the hell out of just about anything.

Its a game after all, its OP in-game.Thats like saying the British are OP against Insurgents.

StandardSmurf wrote:I've seen it go both ways Eddie.

Pardon? I haven't mentioned anything about in-game performance, only about real-life carrying capacity. I think you're replying to the wrong person.

I don't really care that gunships shoot at each, so do tanks, so do apcs, so jets. It's a reality of combined arms warfare. Gunships are good at shooting each other so they will, fuckin deal with it. I know some players might have fantasy of tanks and infantry running in formation with some kind of super quick reaction apache orbiting them or some shit, that only ever attacks something a squad leader designates, but that's not how it works in real life, nor in the game. Tanks are not just force multipliers they perform interdiction, and should be allowed to do so, so should gunships. The AAM removal was more in the interest of realistic loadouts. It HAS improved the gunship vs gunship combat, I havent played in month so maybe the metgame has evlved, but standard tactics on Saarema were 300ft altitudes scanning for targets behind the front lines, or at least between your carrier and the enemy AA, and engaging the enemies if you see them. Choppers could get nailed, and fast attacks on designated targets also happened. That's fine, and probably realistic enough.

Inspektura43 wrote:The AA was used at long range mostly and it missed most of the times because its easy to dodge.And head on both gunships flared before they even shoot each other so it was skill.
I think you got it wrong how heli dogfights worked before 1.0.
It depents on EVERYTHING

Flares back then were pretty shit. The only skill back then was knowing not to fire until they dropped their first barrage of flares, waiting until those had dropped for a half second before firing, meanwhile dropping a steady pace of flares on your end.

People didn't know how the hell to use attack helicopters then, and they kinda don't now. After I understood how flares worked in previous releases it was too easy to kill 3/4 attack helicopters that tried to go directly against me.

It was horrendously stupid. At least now they try to run away, good chases are more fun anyway.

Celestial1 wrote:Flares back then were pretty shit. The only skill back then was knowing not to fire until they dropped their first barrage of flares, waiting until those had dropped for a half second before firing, meanwhile dropping a steady pace of flares on your end.

People didn't know how the hell to use attack helicopters then, and they kinda don't now. After I understood how flares worked in previous releases it was too easy to kill 3/4 attack helicopters that tried to go directly against me.

It was horrendously stupid. At least now they try to run away, good chases are more fun anyway.

And when you add the fact that you had an average of 40 hydras 500cannon and 8 hellfires makes it even more interesting

what would you do if both of your AAs missed, runaway?..

Edit: About the shit flares, they are even (no offence devs but) shittier now.
Atleast having 60 flares compensates for the non-usability

And to reply to the OP Gunships will always hunt each other they did it before 1.0 they keep doing it after 1.0
Whats the huge problem, noone calls CAS anyway.
Team is always busy in a firefight noone wants to even SPOT for CAS
If you think its that bad try to join a heli cas squad ingame and explain them why they shouldnt do it

40mmrain wrote:I don't really care that gunships shoot at each, so do tanks, so do apcs, so jets. It's a reality of combined arms warfare. Gunships are good at shooting each other so they will, fuckin deal with it. I know some players might have fantasy of tanks and infantry running in formation with some kind of super quick reaction apache orbiting them or some shit, that only ever attacks something a squad leader designates, but that's not how it works in real life, nor in the game. Tanks are not just force multipliers they perform interdiction, and should be allowed to do so, so should gunships. The AAM removal was more in the interest of realistic loadouts. It HAS improved the gunship vs gunship combat, I havent played in month so maybe the metgame has evlved, but standard tactics on Saarema were 300ft altitudes scanning for targets behind the front lines, or at least between your carrier and the enemy AA, and engaging the enemies if you see them. Choppers could get nailed, and fast attacks on designated targets also happened. That's fine, and probably realistic enough.

The big difference between your examples is a Main Battle Tank (and many other type of tanks) is strictly designed to take on other tanks as well as supporting infantry etc while most Attack Helicopter are strictly designed to destroy targets on the ground, where taking on other air targets is just an after thought at the very most or not even considered in its design at all.

They find eachother its pretty much whoever sees the other first and kills it with 5 cannon rounds.
The heli dogfights are soooo messed up now its not about skill i dont even

That's kind of true, but I feel like there is more skill involved than before. I'd rather fight against a manually guided 30mm canon than lucky AA missiles.

It is a tiny bit more skill-based, but obviously not entirely : the fact that even a loaded school bus driving uphill goes faster than any attack chopper now makes them so easy to hit with 30mm or hydra, because they're slow as hell hence very vulnerable.

I personally prefer without AA missiles

*cough*
http://i.imgur.com/qohBzAw.jpg
*cough*

Whats your point? No one said they can't be carried, we said they can't be carrier along with their ECM gear and the load out of weapons currently on the PR choppers.

Inspektura43 wrote:And when you add the fact that you had an average of 40 hydras 500cannon and 8 hellfires makes it even more interesting

You still have them, moot point. Heck, it's a point in my favor, because watching two helicopters go full tard and spin around firing hydras everywhere is hilarious.

what would you do if both of your AAs missed, runaway?..

Generally, I didn't miss. If I did, I never bothered to run away because we were always at 800m like idiots so diving to safety meant lining up your ***-end for the pursuing chopper for a 600m+ drop of free-kills.

You just spammed all your shit and hoped your gunner was good enough to land hits while flailing around like a flying magikarp.

Edit: About the shit flares, they are even (no offence devs but) shittier now.
Atleast having 60 flares compensates for the non-usability

They're way better now in pretty much every respect. Flares before were spazzy but easy to exploit. There were very few occasions where I didn't hit the enemy atk helo on the first AA fire and dodged theirs. It was super easy and a waste of all of our times.

cas pilots who go hunting are, and have always been a detriment to the team. you cant patch stupid.

prepare your defensive positions or coordinate with aa assets, instead of relying on cas to save your squad from anything you cant kill.

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:The big difference between your examples is a Main Battle Tank (and many other type of tanks) is strictly designed to take on other tanks as well as supporting infantry etc while most Attack Helicopter are strictly designed to destroy targets on the ground, where taking on other air targets is just an after thought at the very most or not even considered in its design at all.

maybe, but that's because Air defense and fixed wing air to air is far superior to a helicopter's air to air ability. However if just MANPADS exist, or if heavier AA is limited to ~1000m, by draw distance in this case, then air to air with helicopters is the best option, so it happens in PR.

I dont have much proof for this, but in the current metagame on maps with attack helicopters and jets at the same time it seems very rare that helicopters fight each other. Due to the nature of the fight, you would be vulnerable to a jet while engaging an enemy helicopter, and enemy helicopters tend to keep their base close, so you would need to go deep into the map, and thus be easily revenge killed by a jet after an engagment. This is a good reflection of reality as in real life choppers rarely fight each other, only a few recorded instances in the iran-iraq war and some other misc shit as far as I know. I like this layer set up, it exists on black gold, and and causes helicopters to generally fly lower, and keep themselves between base and the target.

Another way to prevent helicopter vs helicopter engagements would be to have only one side with attack helicopters and the other side with an appropriate anti air or air force to balance this. This occurs on Muttrah, typically the cobra on muttrah performs an overwatch/CAS role by striking targets, or using optics at maximum altitude to pick off enemies and vehicles. A layer on for example, kashan, with apaches and blakchawks, on one side, and the other side with a large anti air vehicle force, and tank force would be quite interesting, armour vs air assault, and could be balanced. This would be another example of more realistic helicopter usage.

It's mostly up to mappers to employ layers similar to what would occur in real life. However, I dont think pure chopper vs chopper symmeterical maps should be removed, it's fun to see what might happen should this match up happen in real life. What if it did? Why would an apache NOT shoot at a havoc if it were the best tool for the job in some operation?

Celestial1 wrote:You still have them, moot point. Heck, it's a point in my favor, because watching two helicopters go full tard and spin around firing hydras everywhere is hilarious.


Generally, I didn't miss. If I did, I never bothered to run away because we were always at 800m like idiots so diving to safety meant lining up your ***-end for the pursuing chopper for a 600m+ drop of free-kills.

You just spammed all your shit and hoped your gunner was good enough to land hits while flailing around like a flying magikarp.


They're way better now in pretty much every respect. Flares before were spazzy but easy to exploit. There were very few occasions where I didn't hit the enemy atk helo on the first AA fire and dodged theirs. It was super easy and a waste of all of our times.

So you are first saying how hilarious it looked like and then telling a story of you dogfighting.
That went nowhere and im stopping here.
Goo watch some videos of people doing it the easy way (yes you know who im talking about)
To see how "hilarious" it looks like.

Inspektura43 wrote:So you are first saying how hilarious it looked like and then telling a story of you dogfighting.
That went nowhere and im stopping here.
Goo watch some videos of people doing it the easy way (yes you know who im talking about)
To see how "hilarious" it looks like.

How hilarious it looks, not looked. It's so idiotic now, when two helicopter pilots go head to head. At least half the time that I watch a head-on helo fight in 1.0, it's mutual destruction. Before, it was just boring until both pilots ran out of AA. Then it was hilarious again like it is now because the AA missiles were stupid.

I support laughing at stupid helo pilots that think fighting the other helo head on is a good idea.

And in fact, I don't know who you're talking about. Don't know why you think I would. I don't trust the supposed "easy way", either, given that discussion has sounded like the personification of the generic PR helo pilot.

FLAP_BRBGOING2MOON wrote:cas pilots who go hunting are, and have always been a detriment to the team. you cant patch stupid.

prepare your defensive positions or coordinate with aa assets, instead of relying on cas to save your squad from anything you cant kill.

You mean AAVs are for securing the air above you and not for roadkills? Well shit, looks like someone forgot to tell everyone about that.

But seriously like celest has said its hilarious to watch to choppers go hunt each other head on because of how retarded all of them are. That just reinforces what most people think of people who use assets, we can't sit back and wait for our time to shine. Choppers shouldn't be out hunting each other, and it shouldn't be their job to run over when an enemy chopper gets spotted. They should be working with their spotter SL (because purely relying on the team can result in 0 targets as you get capped out), or helping SLs who they trust. Not flying around the map looking for a good old spam fest (or in 0.98 a no skill AA snipe), or flying around way behind the frontline looking for easy kills between the other team's main and the front (yes you know who im talking about),go watch the videos...