Project Reality Forums

[R-DEV]Mineral wrote:While I appreciate the discussion, I really want to rename this thread to 'weapon values circlejerk'

Also, please state facts. There are way too many placebo effects being discussed here. Back up your feedback otherwise it's rather useless.

Preferably constructive feedback from those who have actually fired the weapon in real life.

I like 1.3 weaponry. Everything but G36. It just doesn't seems right. I've never shot it, but I don't think that this rifle is THAT good.

Maybe I am wrong but it seems that this rifle doesn't have any kind of recoil at all. But it SHOULD have.

Watch the kick. It's balanced and stabilized. But there's still a lot of it. Even in semi.


And watch this. This looks like a proper "russian" AK74M. And it doesn't have a lot of kick. It just about the direction of blowback it drove rifle up and right(not that high in fact).


Correct me if I'm wrong.

This might help:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_recoil

There is a huge difference between M16(6.44) and AK-74(3.4).
A lighter G36(although not significantly lighter) or M4 should have even higher recoil.

ComradeHX wrote:I did.

Literally on second post.

Recoil is nearly negligible due to the rate of fire cancelling recoil animation.

Didn't know which AR-15 typed variant you where talking about. >_>


That being said, I agree that people who have fired the rifle in real life should comment. The Free recoil concept is also kinda interesting.

Switchback wrote:Didn't know which AR-15 typed variant you where talking about. >_>


That being said, I agree that people who have fired the rifle in real life should comment. The Free recoil concept is also kinda interesting.

They are all bugged, as with any 900rpm gun in this game.


I'm in u.s,（you can tell because my ping in u.s servers is around 50-70） I have fired many similar（civilian） firearms except g36； so I'm pretty sure I have a decent idea of which guns have more recoil.



To fix the fullauto recoil bug, recoil animation for ar15 variants should be "sharper"（shorter）, which would be realistic for shortstroke piston guns like g36 compared to AK which has fullstroke piston.

While we are on it, SKS should get a rate of fire buff（yes it's semiauto, but there is too much delay between each shot currently ）.

Just because the animation is off doesn't mean that you will be more accurate. Look at the gun sway in Forgotten Hope, the gun looks like it is swaying but it is still shooting the same spot. Same thing with recoil, the bullets will hit in a pattern that will slightly differ from where your sights are at the moment any bullet is fired.

From my experience, I have only shot semi-auto versions, anything that fires a 5.56 or close enough has about the same recoil.

Why not just make all rifles that fire 5.56 or 5.45 have the same recoil otherwise it will just bounce back with 5.56 having too much recoil or 5.45 having too much.

Back to this point

[R-DEV]M42 Zwilling wrote:The base recoil is the same, but the recoil modifier while aiming got increased for all scoped assault rifles from 0.4 to the 0.6 used by their iron sight counterparts.

This makes switching from iron sights to scoped of the same type really obnoxious now. The M4 iron sights seems the same as ever, but when you switch back to a scoped version its like shooting the G3 all of a sudden, being a little hyperbolic to make my point.

tankninja1 wrote:Just because the animation is off doesn't mean that you will be more accurate. Look at the gun sway in Forgotten Hope, the gun looks like it is swaying but it is still shooting the same spot. Same thing with recoil, the bullets will hit in a pattern that will slightly differ from where your sights are at the moment any bullet is fired.

From my experience, I have only shot semi-auto versions, anything that fires a 5.56 or close enough has about the same recoil.

Why not just make all rifles that fire 5.56 or 5.45 have the same recoil otherwise it will just bounce back with 5.56 having too much recoil or 5.45 having too much.

Back to this point


This makes switching from iron sights to scoped of the same type really obnoxious now. The M4 iron sights seems the same as ever, but when you switch back to a scoped version its like shooting the G3 all of a sudden, being a little hyperbolic to make my point.

I'm willing to bet removing recoil animation will actually make AK-74 more accurate on fullauto.

I think the problem is that camera bone(?) is tied to the recoil animation, so the animation added extra recoil that didn't agree with the numbers. Remember that AK-74 had lower recoil in files even before v1.3 but the perceived recoil in-game was significantly higher.

Sway is entirely different; it does not work because the camera isn't moving, IIRC the hard-coded part that makes sway only visual was that the point of impact can't be randomly separated from center of screen.
Obviously, that's not a problem if the recoil animation caused the camera to shift(thus actually shifting point of aim, requiring readjustment during/after firing).

You saw the free recoil numbers, M16 has almost TWICE the recoil force of AK-74.

Having all 5.45 and 5.56 rifles having same recoil == 5.45 has too much and 5.56 have too little.

Scoped AR15 variants actually works fine, the change made recoil slightly higher when using scope and still negligible when using BUIS. If it feels like you needed effort to keep sights on target, it's working as intended(although still too easy, M249 in undeployed mode felt like it had a lot more recoil by being a lot harder to keep on target).

When full-auto AR-15 has similar recoil to M249(undeployed), it would be balanced and realistic.

tankninja1 wrote:This makes switching from iron sights to scoped of the same type really obnoxious now. The M4 iron sights seems the same as ever, but when you switch back to a scoped version its like shooting the G3 all of a sudden, being a little hyperbolic to make my point.

I agree with you

ComradeHX wrote: You saw the free recoil numbers, M16 has almost TWICE the recoil force of AK-74.

Twice of almost nothing is still not a whole lot. Wouldn't be surprised if the recoil you actually feel is building up exponentionally or logarithmically from these numbers. Shit like this is always very subjective, but I don't have a problem controlling the rifle; just like every Assault Rifle it only has recoil if you're a small woman or two broken arms. The G36 in the field is usually heavier than an M16 since we strap 2 magazines(3 is also doable, but those don't fit in the pouches) together, giving the rifle a total weight of about 6.4kg. Since we're already comparing numbers, the M16 in the example was calculated with 3.8kg, so in the usual combat configuration G36 would have half the recoil of the M16 in the example, which would in turn bring us close to the AK74 value. Should I be correct and these figures translate best in an exponential or logarithmic manner, the discrepancy between the two rifles would be almost non-existant.


I really don't have a problem fighting against G36s ingame, and I don't see a particular reason to increase the recoil over most other 5.56 rifles(especially since it doesn't have the 900 RPM "recoil brake"), so we should just play it out for another month or two and see how things develop.

tankninja1 wrote:This makes switching from iron sights to scoped of the same type really obnoxious now. The M4 iron sights seems the same as ever, but when you switch back to a scoped version its like shooting the G3 all of a sudden, being a little hyperbolic to make my point.

You're zoomed in, giving you a feel of extreme muzzle climb when in reality you're climbing the exact same distance between iron sights and scope.

Frontliner wrote:Twice of almost nothing is still not a whole lot. Wouldn't be surprised if the recoil you actually feel is building up exponentionally or logarithmically from these numbers. Shit like this is always very subjective, but I don't have a problem controlling the rifle; just like every Assault Rifle it only has recoil if you're a small woman or two broken arms. The G36 in the field is usually heavier than an M16 since we strap 2 magazines(3 is also doable, but those don't fit in the pouches) together, giving the rifle a total weight of about 6.4kg. Since we're already comparing numbers, the M16 in the example was calculated with 3.8kg, so in the usual combat configuration G36 would have half the recoil of the M16 in the example, which would in turn bring us close to the AK74 value. Should I be correct and these figures translate best in an exponential or logarithmic manner, the discrepancy between the two rifles would be almost non-existant.


I really don't have a problem fighting against G36s ingame, and I don't see a particular reason to increase the recoil over most other 5.56 rifles(especially since it doesn't have the 900 RPM "recoil brake"), so we should just play it out for another month or two and see how things develop.

.22 is almost nothing, .223 is something.
7.62x39 is something else...

Nobody has problem controlling anything near 5.56 IRL.
Problem, in game, comes from anything not easymode 5.56, even 5.45 which has lower recoil has higher actual recoil because recoil animation for 5.56 900rpm weapons were cutoff...

M16 used in the calculation is 3.99kg, not 3.8.

M16 can have a ton of shit attached to it too(and it usually does).

You can have your "combat configuration" when you make the models with all the extra shit on it.
In-game G36 only takes one mag at a time.

In-game it seems like less of a problem because the only effective way to engage blufor on maps featuring G36 is to ambush them...where better weapons won't help because they are either dead or already injured/suppressed before they fire.

G36 is straightup better even at 50m because recoil does not throw gun horizontally all over(at least they fixed most of the upward recoil problem).
I used to only use AK-74 and/or play on RUS because it's fun to shit on people while using shitty weapons.
Now it's not as shitty anymore but still inferior.

The point is, numbers suggest that G36 should have more recoil than M16 when G36 has no attachment...etc. And that's basically what we have modeled in-game(M16 actually has rails , panels, and vfg, which is extra weight).

Recoil numbers and actual animation needs to be looked at.

I think all the AK variants should have an upwards and to the right recoil, caused by the heavy bolt carrier. Right now it's kind of all over the place which is kinda wrong. AK-47 and AKM should have a pretty big kick, but to the right top. AK-74 much less because of the muzzle break and smaller round.

ComradeHX wrote:Nobody has problem controlling anything near 5.56 IRL.
Problem, in game, comes from anything not easymode 5.56, even 5.45 which has lower recoil has higher actual recoil because recoil animation for 5.56 900rpm weapons were cutoff...

G36 ingame is at 600 RPM.

Can you stop bringing this up for the simple reason that this doesn't apply here?

M16 used in the calculation is 3.99kg, not 3.8.

https://www.google.de/?gws_rd=ssl#q=8.5+lbs+in+kg
The one I found first said it was 3.83 so ye.

M16 can have a ton of shit attached to it too(and it usually does).
You can have your "combat configuration" when you make the models with all the extra shit on it.
In-game G36 only takes one mag at a time.

You can attach the very same shit to the G36, but that's not even the point.
The point is that the G36 usually fielded is about 70% heavier than the M16 in the example and which consequences that has when comparing it with AK74 in the example. That's all. I wasn't asking to change anything

I really don't have a problem fighting against G36s ingame, and I don't see a particular reason to increase the recoil over most other 5.56 rifles(especially since it doesn't have the 900 RPM "recoil brake"), so we should just play it out for another month or two and see how things develop.

and even if I were, we both know perfectly well that the engine wouldn't allow strapped magazines anyways so stop bitching at me for things I didn't say.


You said you didn't fire the G36 irl as opposed to me, so can you just take my word for that it's totally fine the way it is?

Frontliner wrote:G36 ingame is at 600 RPM.

Can you stop bringing this up for the simple reason that this doesn't apply here?



https://www.google.de/?gws_rd=ssl#q=8.5+lbs+in+kg
The one I found first said it was 3.83 so ye.



You can attach the very same shit to the G36, but that's not even the point.
The point is that the G36 usually fielded is about 70% heavier than the M16 in the example and which consequences that has when comparing it with AK74 in the example. That's all. I wasn't asking to change anything
and even if I were, we both know perfectly well that the engine wouldn't allow strapped magazines anyways so stop bitching at me for things I didn't say.


You said you didn't fire the G36 irl as opposed to me, so can you just take my word for that it's totally fine the way it is?

You just didn't read, this isn't about G36's rate of fire...

Feel free to calculate your own numbers using 3.83 then.

That's not the point, because the point is that in-game MODEL does not show ANYTHING attached to G36 except for magazine. Your claim is irrelevant. YOU are the one bitching about G36 rate of fire and tried to bring weight of non-existent attachment into this when problem is the recoil numbers; and you ask ME to "stop bringing this up for the simple reason that this doesn't apply here"???


The point is that amount of recoil(with animation) isn't realistic when comparing ALL rifles with 5.56 to 5.45 AK-74. G36 isn't special.

You having fired a G36 does not mean anything when this is about recoil of multiple models of firearms RELATIVE to eachother. Or are you saying you fired a M16 next to G36 and G36 turned out to have lower felt recoil?

ComradeHX wrote:You just didn't read, this isn't about G36's rate of fire...

Nobody has problem controlling anything near 5.56 IRL.
Problem, in game, comes from anything not easymode 5.56, even 5.45 which has lower recoil has higher actual recoil because recoil animation for 5.56 900rpm weapons were cutoff...

Yeah w/e bro.

Feel free to calculate your own numbers using 3.83 then.

The wiki table you listed says 8.5lb for the M16A2, which is 3.855kg, I don't have to do anything here.

That's not the point, because the point is that in-game MODEL does not show ANYTHING attached to G36 except for magazine. Your claim is irrelevant.

I'm comparing the real life free recoil amount and changing a few numbers here and there. Where am I saying anything about ingame in this regard? Nowhere!

YOU are the one bitching about G36 rate of fire and tried to bring weight of non-existent attachment into this when problem is the recoil numbers; and you ask ME to "stop bringing this up for the simple reason that this doesn't apply here"???

Excuse me if I bring up the reality of German soldiers strapping 2 magazines together when I talk about reality.

I didn't say anything about 900 RPM weapons in this thread doing anything ever, you on the other hand a number of times(see above for an example). Need more?

Stop bringing up 900 RPM rifles, they don't apply to this discussion.

The point is that amount of recoil(with animation) isn't realistic when comparing ALL rifles with 5.56 to 5.45 AK-74. G36 isn't special.

That's an issue with the 5.45's animation if anything rather than the G36 not having enough kick. Which is why I don't see a reason with the G36 ingame and I also have no issue with the AK74M or the QBZ95 so it seems a lot here is very subjective.

You having fired a G36 does not mean anything when this is about recoil of multiple models of firearms RELATIVE to eachother. Or are you saying you fired a M16 next to G36 and G36 turned out to have lower felt recoil?

Then I would've mentioned that.

I say the G36 ingame translates very well to the one in reality from my point of view, and that's it.

ComradeHX wrote:When full-auto AR-15 has similar recoil to M249(undeployed), it would be balanced and realistic.

How would that be in anyway balanced and or realistic? With full ammo a m249 weights 22lbs, an m4/m16 weights 7.5/8.8lbs More over the m249 breach is out of line with the stock, which dramatically increase upwards recoil. Photos to come

http://imgur.com/a/IiCu6

ComradeHX wrote:
When full-auto AR-15 has similar recoil to M249(undeployed), it would be balanced and realistic.

You're assuming the weapons have similar weapons solely based on the fact that they shoot the same kinds of ammunition, the AR-15 variants in the game (except the HK416) use DI while the M249 uses a piston, piston's mass going back to the receiver as while as the miss-alignment of the bolt-group to the shooter's shoulder (like tankninja pointed out) will significantly increase the recoil over the AR-15.

The M249 is 22lbs with a 100 round bag and 27lbs with a 200 round drum, do you really think you can shoot that thing straight as good as a 8lbs M16?

Acecombatzer0 wrote:You're assuming the weapons have similar weapons solely based on the fact that they shoot the same kinds of ammunition, the AR-15 variants in the game (except the HK416) use DI while the M249 uses a piston, piston's mass going back to the receiver as while as the miss-alignment of the bolt-group to the shooter's shoulder (like tankninja pointed out) will significantly increase the recoil over the AR-15.

The M249 is 22lbs with a 100 round bag and 27lbs with a 200 round drum, do you really think you can shoot that thing straight as good as a 8lbs M16?

I'm assuming the MUCH HEAVIER M249 is enough to make up for the piston.

Shooting it "straight" is a different problem.

tankninja1 wrote:How would that be in anyway balanced and or realistic? With full ammo a m249 weights 22lbs, an m4/m16 weights 7.5/8.8lbs More over the m249 breach is out of line with the stock, which dramatically increase upwards recoil. Photos to come

http://imgur.com/a/IiCu6

Define "dramatically."

Frontliner wrote:blahblahblah

I guess you don't realize that fullauto cutting off animation is not exclusive to 900rpm...

ComradeHX wrote:Define "dramatically."

Dramatically the adverb form of dramatic.

Dramatic adjective

1.of or relating to the drama.

2.employing the form or manner of the drama.

3.characteristic of or appropriate to the drama, especially in involving conflict or contrast; vivid; moving:

4.highly effective; striking:

tankninja1 wrote:Dramatically the adverb form of dramatic.

Dramatic adjective

1.of or relating to the drama.

2.employing the form or manner of the drama.

3.characteristic of or appropriate to the drama, especially in involving conflict or contrast; vivid; moving:

4.highly effective; striking:

So how does "dramatically" increased recoil of M249 compares to M16?