Project Reality Forums

rPoXoTauJIo wrote:Then it's working exactly as supposed. Game should flow regardless of player shooting skills but rather depend on their tactical thinking which is not being achieved in one day.

But then again you are only making long range weapons extremely inbalanced that's about it. Personally I am sad to see a will to develop PR into a casual and easy game (only for the long ranged kits). At least you admit that's what happened, since some people argued it would "make no difference" when it obviously did. Also pretending that PR is about "tactical thinking" seems wierd to me. My experience in PR is very different. Neither do I think this change will push the game towards such a direction anyways. But we can leave it at that I guess and agree to disagree cus it feels like im starting to repeat myself way to much.

STompa wrote:That's not the argument I was trying to make. I think I always had a good grasp on the deviation system and could use long range kits effectivly without indicators. The difference is how easy it is now to push the long range weapons to their limits. Now there is no longer uncertainty, no longer any mistakes. No matter how skilled you where nor how good your understanding of the deviation system is the indicators are a big gamechanger. Knowing exactly when you can peak and when you can't is huge. As I said if you where the only one with brackets it would be considered a hack.

Well, but typically the guys with long range kits(marksmen, spotter, sniper) are the guys who are pretty fucking good at shooting accurately with a few shots, hence why they're given these weapons with 10 round mags and not 700+ RPM assault rifles with 30 round mags. You said you said real life is impossible to emulate fully, and I agree, but there's no reason to not emulate those parts of reality that you can actually emulate, this being one of it. Going back to shooting, something which you and 3ti are likely not aware of, but any semi-competent soldier has a good grasp of when he's going to land the shot that he's going to take, and it's good that the game gives you actual feedback before you take the shot.

Frontliner wrote:Well, but typically the guys with long range kits(marksmen, spotter, sniper) are the guys who are pretty fucking good at shooting accurately with a few shots, hence why they're given these weapons with 10 round mags and not 700+ RPM assault rifles with 30 round mags. You said you said real life is impossible to emulate fully, and I agree, but there's no reason to not emulate those parts of reality that you can actually emulate, this being one of it. Going back to shooting, something which you and 3ti are likely not aware of, but any semi-competent soldier has a good grasp of when he's going to land the shot that he's going to take, and it's good that the game gives you actual feedback before you take the shot.

What I was trying to say is that it's not worth trying to emulate real life by fucking up important gameplay aspects, specially when the attempt in itself is not realistic to begin with. I would not say that deviation in itself is realistic nor does deviation brackets change that at all. But what is real is how it affects the gameplay, and that it does quite dramaticly and in quite a bad way is what I am trying to argue here. I mean you can feel free to disagree with me but if a person wants to play a milsim game isn't ARMA or smth a better choice?

The whole patch feels rushed, the changes are not fully thought through and the majority of updates change this game for the worse.

1) Reduce turret traverse to emulate reality but add deviation bar which makes it arcadey. I don't understand the logic.

2) Kashan is horribly unbalanced any good CF team will stomp MEC. I haven't played the other new maps but I will let you know my 2cents on those.

3) Numerous CTDs and bugs with the release.

4) 1200 ticket maps are awful, absolutely awful. I like how you've differentiated between large and std but there are way too many tickets. Why not use 800, especially considering that you have kept the asset layout the same as std.

IMO the DEVS are alienating the veterans more and more and coddling the newbs unnecessarily. I find that the last few patches are sacrificing quality for quantity. New issues are being created and old ones are persisting.

Danger_6 wrote:The whole patch feels rushed, the changes are not fully thought through and the majority of updates change this game for the worse.

1) Reduce turret traverse to emulate reality but add deviation bar which makes it arcadey. I don't understand the logic.

Yup it's really that black and white danger Good thinking one day after release.

Danger_6 wrote:4) 1200 ticket maps are awful, absolutely awful. I like how you've differentiated between large and std but there are way too many tickets. Why not use 800, especially considering that you have kept the asset layout the same as std.

With this release Large layers are meant for 2h gameplay, which means DOUBLE the amount of time from standard(1h). Without changing the gameplay. So assets, flags and others indeed stay the same.

This also means the ticket counts seem rather high. They are usually around 80% double of STD. Also keep in mind there are many factors at play here. CAS pilots also wanted some more flight time given 1h gameplay and the increased spawntimers meant that CAS pilots only had 1 or 2 runs before the map was over. With the increased round time more re-spawns will happen for CAS meaning more death from the sky and drain tickets, etc... It was hard to find the right amount for each map. I'm sure many will change. But the overall goal will remain to stick to double the round length of standard. As this is something that many of the (apparently poor forgotten) veterans wanted.

Danger_6 wrote: New issues are being created and old ones are persisting.

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I mean I 100% agree with Danger, sorry to offend you Mineral

Don't be mistaken, I don't take offense in feedback. The opposite really But just like anyone else I'm allowed to agree or disagree.

You didn't reply to my point about DEVs alienating the veteran players. This is the biggest issue IMO.

I agree with Stompa and Danger. I would really appreciate a hotxfix removing the deviation marker and some of the new layouts. I don't like the direction where we heading to, This is PR keep the HUD as simple as possible.

BTW did someone asked for the deviation marker?

We don't focus on any specific group of players tbh. This is never a point of discussion. We make the PR we want to play and that we want to share with everyone.

It's mostly IMO that veterans just like anywhere else really, don't like change unless it's specifically something they wanted. Against most else they will be opposed a lot until they get used to it. I don't like change neither in other aspects of my life. It's very normal. Just go read threads of feedback after every release. They look like this one.

so you dont focus with the deviation indicator to make it easier for newbies?
I have to agree with danger, stompa, schakal about the changes: The turret thingy is broken as hell because u cant really hit moving targets, kashan became unbalanced (IFVs vs tanks with that turret..), the pirat map is lagging as hell and doesnt really offer tactical playing, so many server crashes....

Why dont u fix the broken stuff people are complaining on the forums instead of creating new things that destroy the mod?

[R-DEV]Mineral wrote:We don't focus on any specific group of players tbh. This is never a point of discussion. We make the PR we want to play and that we want to share with everyone.

It's mostly IMO that veterans just like anywhere else really, don't like change unless it's specifically something they wanted. Against most else they will be opposed a lot until they get used to it. I don't like change neither in other aspects of my life. It's very normal. Just go read threads of feedback after every release. They look like this one.

Nice way of being dismissive of people's opinions and the backlash the patch caused. Hey I guess it's easier to dismiss people's opinions rather than actually responding or even considering them. "We just don't like change". I love lot's of the changes but really dislike some. Why are you reducing our concerns to such? I actually almost find that a bit offensive.

Edit to repond to your edit: I'm not saying all the devs are dismissive. I'm saying your statement that "Veterans just don't like change no matter what - you'll get used to it" thing was dismissive, since you reduce our opinions to some general idea that "oh the veterans will always be upset no matter what we do, the patch is actually fine and their concerns are just whining".

fecht_niko wrote:so you dont focus with the deviation indicator to make it easier for newbies?

No, just for everyone. It's also not about making it easier directly. It's about having a visual indicator of some BF2 relic that is deviation. I'd have real weapon sway any day over indicator

fecht_niko wrote: Why dont u fix the broken stuff people are complaining on the forums instead of creating new things that destroy the mod?

link?

STompa wrote:Nice way of being dismissive of people's opinions and the backlash the patch caused. Hey I guess it's easier to dismiss people's opinions rather than actually responding or even considering them. "We just don't like change". I love lot's of the changes but really dislike some. Why are you reducing our concerns to such? I actually almost find that a bit offensive.

How are we dismissive exactly? We are reading, we are listening, responding, arguing, discussing. All while preparing a hotfix? just like every release. PR has always been a creation of the community. We aren't a boogieman We are a modding team. We mod.

[R-DEV]Mineral wrote:We don't focus on any specific group of players tbh. This is never a point of discussion. We make the PR we want to play and that we want to share with everyone.

It's mostly IMO that veterans just like anywhere else really, don't like change unless it's specifically something they wanted. Against most else they will be opposed a lot until they get used to it. I don't like change neither in other aspects of my life. It's very normal. Just go read threads of feedback after every release. They look like this one.

I've been through 9 years of changes to PR and was pretty satisfied with all of them. This is the only update I actually haven't been happy with.

I'm pretty ambivalent on the deviation indicator. I learned fine without it, but it doesn't bother me one way or the other.

Turret traverse I can understand being an adjustment, especially for players who do a lot of armor, which I tend to avoid. That said, I was on FH2 for years before coming to PR, and they implemented a similar system a couple years back. Plenty of bitching and moaning from vets, but it simply took some adjustment and now no one has any problems using it correctly. I recall messing with mouse sensitivity helped some...

Grozny is amazing, haven't seen the other Russian map, and Soul Rebel I can't take seriously, but had a great time playing. It's a really pleasant alternative to Grozny's depressed atmosphere.

Biggest problem I've personally had are way more CTD's then ever before. I think I've made it through one round without crashing, and I played most of the day yesterday. Servers seem to be going down more often as well... Really puts a damper on things

i think its a shame you have valued your deviation mechanic so lowly and not considered it was one of the keystones of the game, part science part art telling if and how far your bullets would spread

the deviation system is a keystone of this game dont add hacks

Finally you do realize we dont want sniper easy mode, dodgy turrets, turrets that dont turn with the vehicle, new weapons without proper models, wacky new layouts and broken layers ......

.... everyone is waiting for ww2 and falklands

I haven't been able to play a full multiplayer game due to the amount of server crashes.

I didn't notice an increase in Server crashes than normal but Clients are crashing more than usual for sure.

'[R-DEV wrote:Mineral;2103356']
How are we dismissive exactly? We are reading, we are listening, responding, arguing, discussing. All while preparing a hotfix? just like every release. PR has always been a creation of the community. We aren't a boogieman We are a modding team. We mod.

With this, right here:

IMO that veterans just like anywhere else really, don't like change unless it's specifically something they wanted. Against most else they will be opposed a lot until they get used to it.

Of course we'll get used to it if it stays in the game and we keep playing, does it make it any less of a shite mechanic that is aimed directly at the casuals? No. The only thing I hear for the proponents of this bar is to reflect real life, which is a silly excuses, seeing as PR is still extremely arcady in it's fundamental game play design. If you want to cite 'real-life' than why the fuck does my deviation reset when I go crouch to prone?

This feature only helps to dumb down gameplay and expedite firefights. No longer is there that random element of 'calculated' RNG when everyone has a fucking bar on their screen that tell them exactly then to shoot. No longer will there be that situation where you see a full squad on the street and start counting to 4 in your head with an AR only to miss your first burst and have the enemies scatter, no, now you'll wait for it to be perfectly aligned, and shoot, and and kill the whole squad.

This has got to be the worst feature implemented. It really is akin to a hack.

STompa wrote:What I was trying to say is that it's not worth trying to emulate real life by fucking up important gameplay aspects, specially when the attempt in itself is not realistic to begin with.

Ok, hold on a second. Deviation is a work-around for sway and the time it would normally take a soldier to sight in with his weapon(especially true for a scoped weapon) because the ingame weapons sight in PERFECTLY and INSTANTANENOUSLY and they don't sway either. Calling this a gameplay mechanic is kind of stretching it.
The only thing that the Devs added was visual feedback that was amiss until yesterday, deviation retains as it's been in the most recent builts. Fucking up gameplay? Hardly. Making it easier? Most assuredly. Adding something unrealistic? How about you shoot a thousand rounds of ammo and tell whether or not you KNEW you'd hit your mark if you pull the trigger now, because I sure do know when I'm steady that I WILL hit, and so do others.

I would not say that deviation in itself is realistic nor does deviation brackets change that at all.

See above. It's a workaround.

But what is real is how it affects the gameplay, and that it does quite dramaticly and in quite a bad way is what I am trying to argue here.

Oh it does. I now know for certain that I'm going to hit when I need a bullet to hit. What's so bad about that?

I mean you can feel free to disagree with me but if a person wants to play a milsim game isn't ARMA or smth a better choice?

MilSim is when you know that your weapon is steady, yeah no.