Project Reality Forums

Go get 'em Bluedrake

We get new team members every month, we just don't update our "team page" very often . This means testers, contributors and contributors promoted to developers. All those people come from the community mind you.

Obviously we don't give up control, because things would die down really fast. You'll end up with a divided playerbase and what not. If one wants to contribute, make an effort by modding the game. If we like it, we'll put it in the mod and make the person a contributor. And if we don't like it, well, end of story. But you're free to create a minimod or event if you like though.

Also we have several repositories and most of our original assets, so no worries there.

The reason we haven't started a new project on another engine (mod or standalone indie game) is because we simply don't have the manpower to do such a thing. To be honest, I don't really see us make an indie game from the ground up. We'd be better off making another mod on an existing game. We talk about this from time to time, but no serious efforts have been made.

Anyway, waaaay off topic here. If TS wants to know if he should play the game, my answer would be "yes". Just download and play and find out if you like it. It's as simple as that.

[R-DEV]AfterDune wrote:Obviously we don't give up control, because things would die down really fast. You'll end up with a divided playerbase and what not. If one wants to contribute, make an effort by modding the game. If we like it, we'll put it in the mod and make the person a contributor. And if we don't like it, well, end of story.

That's alright. Just a difference of opinion. I don't fault you for it, nor do I think anyone from RDEV is purposefully doing anything to hurt the Project Reality community.

I don't agree with how you all function, and I don't know how far down everything has to fall before we give another school of thought a try. I don't think anyone is doing it intentionally, but it frustrates me.

I can't ever be mad at you though AfterDune. Your niceness is my kryptonite. Can't say the same for a good portion of other RDEV users though.

Project Reality is the only game I care about non-commercially, and it annoys me to see what has happened to it. Eventually if it dies, I'll just become completely corporate. Until that transition happens however... I'll continue to come back here and be bitter once every few months, just hoping something we talk about catches on... and someone does something about it before this community hits bingo.

we simply don't have the manpower

You get manpower by building a system that incentivizes the onboarding of manpower... however over the past few years I've seen a starkly biased opposition against recruitment and contributor expansion. The tools and process of contribution for the Project Reality community haven't been properly opened or maintained in a way that effectively incentivizes contribution.

There is no clean, or unbiased method to contributing to the community... and I think that is an issue. If that were to be a priority, you would see a huge influx of creative content and contributions. This isn't an issue with resources... its an issue of initiative, and taking advantage of those resources.

We'd be better off making another mod on an existing game. We talk about this from time to time, but no serious efforts have been made.

I have made a completely unexpected living for the past year (or possibly two years) developing software and selling it to companies that work in integrations.

I will literally license my work to you for free, and help you assess and execute a proper attempt to start building a project within UE4. I have done this numerous times for multiple other companies, and I will literally do this for you all for free. I would give you a full legal license to utilize and build upon our work... just because I feel indebted to the Project Reality community, and watching this community die is like watching one of my dogs die.

For the love of god. Let the community properly help you carry the torch. The issue is not that there are not people willing to help... the issue is that RDEV refuses to properly mobilize them, and accept that help is needed.

PR is like that stubborn dad who refuses to ask for help from his family, even though he is about to get evicted... and doesn't have any income.

Dad. Let us fucking... help you.

Bluedrake42 wrote:Of the few underlings remaining, who still hold the keys to the master servers and development repositories... instead of letting the community take over development of the game (as I would have expected them to) they have been holding on to all the original systems they can (including the original master server system) which keeps the community from continuing the project without their interference, or without their control.

Dafuq are you talking about? Everybody was and is free to create something they like if they put enough time and effort into it. That's how people went from [R-CON] to [R-DEV] in most cases, because they proved their work to be a valued and a valuable addition to the project. This "secluded society" you're picturing doesn't exist, as a matter of fact the game wouldn't be what it is today without its players stepping up and investing time into it, which is why many Devs are trying to be helpful whenever they can, such as Outlawz and Max helping me making my map and AlonTavor "coding" an entire new gamemode for an event. The reason why not everybody is being allowed to add stuff at random is firstly because it is still being developed and secondly to make sure that it meets certain requirements and fits, and because the game needs to be compiled to work, further reinforcing why you can't open source it all.

So all the people complaining about Project Reality "dying" and that there aren't enough players... this is the reason why. Its not because not enough people play the game... or we need to promote more... or yada yada... its because the community hasn't been given the control it needs to continue this project,

The game is old, mate. It's pushed the boundaries of the BF2 engine and then some, but it's always been a very niche game experience that requires much more from the player than to enjoy pretty lights flashing, kill streaks and other bullshit that most shooters have today. Which is both a curse and a blessing, a curse because it never allowed the game to be absurdly popular, a blessing because it enjoyed continued support from players because there are no better alternatives at that time/even today.

by an elite few who just happened to have usurped control of the original project.

Do you actually hear yourself talk when you spew something as ridiculous as this? Are you actually this stupid in the head? Nobody in the Dev team got to where they are now without hardwork and dedication to the project, nobody "just so happens" to be part of the team for nothing.

I'm not fear mongering. I'm just frustrated that the future of my favorite game has been gummed up by political BS and childish power playing. A constant theme with anything related to the Project Reality community for some reason. So forgive me if I frequently sound bitter, if I do it is because I am.

The only one attempting a childish power play is yourself, BlueDrake. As far as I know you haven't done anything meaningful to developing the game, so why should your opinion count for shit? Do you think you're the only one with an opinion or idea here?

Frontliner we've reached this point of critical mass, where I don't respect you enough to have your counter insults really matter to me that much.

I've said my piece. You all figure out what you want to do with it. Worst case scenario you all do nothing, and things keep going the way they have, and nothing changes.

Doesn't matter to me either way. I've already made peace with how this likely goes down. 95% likelyhood that a bunch of the RDEV's/RCON's/etc circle jerk about how wrong everyone else is, until they feel sufficiently elated.

The only reason I still post here is just waiting for the 5% chance that that doesn't happen, and someone actually does something.

Most of what you said was wrong, and large parts of what was wrong you said despite fully knowing that what you are saying is utter bullcrap. So the intention can only be to largely discredit those who put a lot of their time and efforts into shaping the project in front of players who might not know better. This is nothing an act of malice born out of spite and bitterness, the last of which you admitted to yourself.

And your reason for doing all of this is nothing else but "I want this project to go the way I want it to", that's all it boils down to for you. I won't deny there's a certain passion for the game to be found within that, but I will also say that this is both the root of your problems with the Dev Team and the source of the "childish power playing" you oh so accurately spoke of yourself. Of course the only salvation for the game cannot be found within the guys who've developed this game for X time, but you instead.

I would say that the Dev Team's assertion that there is nothing to be gained from your interference is quite accurate.
And also, there still is no shame in this game eventually dying one day.

Frontliner wrote:And also, there still is no shame in this game eventually dying one day.

You all have come to terms with it dying, that is fine. I disagree. I just hope someone with some sense makes a change before there isn't any chance to change left. I don't mind either way. Would just be a shame, especially since it is something that can be avoided.

No one will be able to say I didn't advise against it though. Just seems like the same exact mistakes for the past three years, killing off the project slowly. All the same issues, over and over again.

I was hoping that after a certain breaking point people would say "man we should probably fix something" but after talking to the previous developers that left the project, I think everyone has become defeatist. Seems like a shitty way to go.

Bluedrake42 wrote:If RDEV were to start cataloging and archiving assets, meshes, and all universal file formats into a single cohesive library... you could start preparing all of realitymod's creative content for an engine migration.

I'm sorry but there are huge legal problems with even thinking about doing something like that, just for starters. Anyone who contributed any work for PR:BF2, did so for PR:BF2 and you need to get permission to use any asset outside of that, by everyone who worked on that asset (and for the most part, the models, UVs, textures, export, coding, animations, sounds etc are all done by separate people with often multiple people working on one of those areas too). This is in place so no one can gain/profit off of anyone else's work without their direct consent and protects the original creator(s).

This is also not to mention that these assets have been made for a 12yr+ engine and most are very old too and wouldn't be able to "plug and play" into another engine even if one wanted it to which they probably wouldn't as the quality levels of someone going to a new engine would say are too low since times have moved on a lot since then.

Bluedrake42 wrote:However I have a theory/feeling that RDEV's SVN repository is dilapidated, and the reason a major migration hasn't started is because they have either lost, damaged, or not maintained Project Reality's original raw assets.

Although that is biased since it includes the .svn files, so the above minus this: https://i.imgur.com/Lo0tWfa.jpg

Bluedrake42 wrote:I mean... even the official Project Reality Youtube channel was shut down, because the original owner of the account was AWOL. If that is the state of what PUBLIC realitymod accounts and platforms look like... I can only imagine what the state of INTERNAL development accounts and repositories look like.

Unforantly that was down to how 2Slick4U insisted on setting up all his accounts, with him having full control over them and no one else could touch them. Pretty much all of the team protested about this but the only way to stop him from doing it, would have been to remove him from the team and make new accounts early on in his place, and with him also having full control over the site/forums too at the time would have meant also losing them. It was hard enough for us to gain back control of them and we eventually had to go totally around him to some of our really old server admins before Slick came in, who still had some access to them and was able to give us control of the site/forums again. Unfourtantly YouTube wouldn't listen to us that we where the rightful owners of PR and instead just shut down the account.

Bluedrake42 wrote:I took a screenshot of the current "Core Team" listing on here Project Reality's website... and then I crossed out every developer listed there, that has their account set to "retired."

As AD said, team members have come and gone from PR for years. Hell even when we where at v0.4, hardly any of the original team members from the v0.1 / v0.2 days where still around and same has gone from there with the team and the mod constantly evolving together. I am one of the very few devs who has stuck with the mod over the years although in an ever-dwindling capacity to what I use to contribute due to r/l stuff etc.

The thing you need to remember is that Project Reality is a volunteer-based mod/game, and as such, that very model means that people are constantly coming and going all the time as real-life circumstances change or they move on to other things such as Squad.

I also suggest you read this, might give you some insight to where PR has been before you came on the scene: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr ... ality.html

Bluedrake42 wrote:You get manpower by building a system that incentivizes the onboarding of manpower... however over the past few years I've seen a starkly biased opposition against recruitment and contributor expansion. The tools and process of contribution for the Project Reality community haven't been properly opened or maintained in a way that effectively incentivizes contribution.

You mean the system that over the years has given this mod something like 500+ weapons, 200+ vehicles, over 100 maps over the years and a shit tone of other stuff that has made this mod probably the biggest thing out there where it comes to content for a FPS?

While yes, far fewer people want to work on a 12yr+ engine/game, the same system is still delivering today, just a few community examples:
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388-p ... ost2177738
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388-p ... ost2174167
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388-p ... o-t90.html
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388-p ... ost2176142
+ many more other things being worked on in community modding.

Bluedrake42 wrote:There is no clean, or unbiased method to contributing to the community... and I think that is an issue. If that were to be a priority, you would see a huge influx of creative content and contributions. This isn't an issue with resources... its an issue of initiative, and taking advantage of those resources.

How would you suggest we improve on this?

I appreciate the candid transparency.

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:Unforantly that was down to how 2Slick4U insisted on setting up all his accounts, with him having full control over them and no one else could touch them. Pretty much all of the team protested about this but the only way to stop him from doing it, would have been to remove him from the team and make new accounts early on in his place, and with him also having full control over the site/forums too at the time would have meant also losing them. It was hard enough for us to gain back control of them and we eventually had to go totally around him to some of our really old server admins before Slick came in, who still had some access to them and was able to give us control of the site/forums again. Unfourtantly YouTube wouldn't listen to us that we where the rightful owners of PR and instead just shut down the account.

This makes the most sense. I think the biggest question is what are all the biggest roadblocks in terms of account management and ownership because of this. Just as like... a triage. What are all the accounts and systems central to RDEV, and of all of those... which are owned/run by who, and what is the access hierarchy for each. Are there any jointly owned accounts? If so... in what way.

What is the current state of RDEV infrastructure, both technically and legally. Only then could I possibly understand the true problems that are plaguing progress, and how best to overcome them.

As AD said, team members have come and gone from PR for years. Hell even when we where at v0.4, hardly any of the original team members from the v0.1 / v0.2 days where still around and same has gone from there with the team and the mod constantly evolving together. I am one of the very few devs who has stuck with the mod over the years although in an ever-dwindling capacity to what I use to contribute due to r/l stuff etc.

The thing you need to remember is that Project Reality is a volunteer-based mod/game, and as such, that very model means that people are constantly coming and going all the time as real-life circumstances change or they move on to other things such as Squad.

I also suggest you read this, might give you some insight to where PR has been before you came on the scene: PR:BF2 General Discussion - Project Reality Forums

I'm aware, but the technical experience of long term members... as well as their integration into account systems, or in some cases just knowledge of improperly documented code/functions/systems can be major loses if there isn't a proper off-boarding process as well.

For instance the previous Slick issue. The bigger this game gets... and the longer people stay, and then subsequently leave... the more damage that is going to cause. Without a properly mandated/structured documentation and issue system, as well as commit comments/etc... onboarding new developers gets exponentially more difficult as time goes on.

I'm going to be forward, and assume that Rhino alone holds enough information in his head... that his departure would make maintaining certain parts of the project practically infinitely impossible to relearn/rebuild/develop.

I want to know more about the documentation process, and where your documentation it is stored/maintained/made available by developers.

You mean the system that over the years has given this mod something like 500+ weapons, 200+ vehicles, over 100 maps over the years and a shit tone of other stuff that has made this mod probably the biggest thing out there where it comes to content for a FPS?

Yes

How would you suggest we improve on this?

You fight antiquity with convenience. At this point infrastructure will likely have a larger impact on population than content. The auto-updater is likely more of a reason the game is still populated than most other features.

I'm probably not even fully aware of all the infrastructural things that you could do to help accessibility, or integration... but just a few examples off the top of my head.

1. Distributing tightly edited, pretty, and educational PDF tutorial files, that explain to community members how to create a single cohesive asset in Project Reality. Like a map, weapon, or vehicle. Or creating tightly edited videos that do the same thing.

2. Integrating important tools into the launcher itself, as well as possibly bundling development tools (and their required subsequent files) into single easy-to-install packages that help potential developers more conveniently expose themselves to elemental development software.

3. Developing content management systems, and possibly integrating them into core community services (like the auto-downloader.) Anything that centralizes distribution of additional community content like mini-mods, maps, or otherwise... into a single well maintained, easily accessible, and easily utilized service.

4. Expanding the server browser, and centralizing content. Allowing players to utilize a single portal to access all content related to their installation of Project Reality. Possibly even rebuilding the entire server browser outside of the game, allowing for advanced filters... and possibly even content synchronization with the custom servers.

There are a variety of ways, both short term and long term, that could have significant quality-of-life impacts, and help perpetually maintain the Project Reality community... even after other competitive titles release.

Also I'm not sure... but there is potentially even an angle to have Project Reality supported through Origin. I'm not sure how feasible this is... but I don't think it would be impossible. If it is... I have many contacts to start that dialogue. I think EA would see it as a victory over Steam, and possible a welcome public relations benefit. I know they have done similar things before, if not rarely...

Bluedrake42 wrote:I'm aware, but the technical experience of long term members... as well as their integration into account systems, or in some cases just knowledge of improperly documented code/functions/systems can be major loses if there isn't a proper off-boarding process as well.

For instance the previous Slick issue. The bigger this game gets... and the longer people stay, and then subsequently leave... the more damage that is going to cause. Without a properly mandated/structured documentation and issue system, as well as commit comments/etc... onboarding new developers gets exponentially more difficult as time goes on.

I'm going to be forward, and assume that Rhino alone holds enough information in his head... that his departure would make maintaining certain parts of the project practically infinitely impossible to relearn/rebuild/develop.

I want to know more about the documentation process, and where your documentation it is stored/maintained/made available by developers.

While that is true to some degree, it has never been a huge problem, other than with Slicks case, and that was simply because for w/e reason we will probably never know since no one can get in contact properly with him, he refused to hand over the accounts etc which has never been a problem with anyone else. Everyone else, both past and present in the team have always handed over w/e they felt was needed to be handed over before they left, and after they left, in terms of accounts, assets and knowledge.

TBH the biggest setback in terms of people leaving we have had other than Slick, was the loss of both our Animators (Chuc and KaB) as while they where both more than happy to hand over all their knowledge etc, they didn't have any time they could put towards making new animations in the future which did set us back a bit. But luckily Wlfk has come out of the community in the last few months and has really stepped up in the animations department. TBH we had the exact same issue when Chuc initially left but then KaB stepped up to that too.

So the problem there really hasn't been so much knowledge, tbh that has been handed down pretty well in most cases though tutorials and just internal comms (old members still chip into our internal dev discussions now and then even). The bigger loss is not having anyone of a particular skillset, that is when things really grind to a hult in terms of development.

If I was to leave PR, while yes some knowledge would be lost where I haven't been able to make tuts for things (but over the years I've made quite a few tuts etc), PR could easily continue development without me and I would more than happy to chip in on any problems where I can help but the biggest blow from me leaving, would be more me not able to work on things myself rather than how I work on them.

As for where are documentation is, pretty much all of it is fully public knowledge and can be found in our tutorials section, anything that isn't in the public domain is not there since either it has no relevance to the community and/or is sensitive material that could be exploited in the wrong hands (like how to use our SVN servers).
Modding Tutorials - Project Reality Forums

Bluedrake42 wrote:1. Distributing tightly edited, pretty, and educational PDF tutorial files, that explain to community members how to create a single cohesive asset in Project Reality. Like a map, weapon, or vehicle. Or creating tightly edited videos that do the same thing.

Well, there is no straightforward guide you can make to any of that. Each map, weapon, vehicle etc has its own set of unique problems, hell there are vast differences between wheeled and tracked vehicles on how you make/export them and many other things. We are also always making advances in the ways we do things. This is also not to forget that making any kind of tutorial takes a huge amount of time and this is coming from the person who has made the majority of them for the community. Even a somewhat simple video tutorial is pretty hard to make and takes quite a lot of time.

The closest thing to what you're asking for would be this thou for maps:
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f189-m ... rs-up.html

Bluedrake42 wrote:2. Integrating important tools into the launcher itself, as well as possibly bundling development tools (and their required subsequent files) into single easy-to-install packages that help potential developers more conveniently expose themselves to elemental development software.

A download button for some tools like the BF2 Editor in the launcher might be an idea but having them fully integrated would take up too much space, and while it might get a few more people to load up the editor, without actually seeking out to make a map from the offset it will probably put more people off from mapping etc than getting people into it since the learning curve is pretty steep to begin with.

Bluedrake42 wrote:3. Developing content management systems, and possibly integrating them into core community services (like the auto-downloader.) Anything that centralizes distribution of additional community content like mini-mods, maps, or otherwise... into a single well maintained, easily accessible, and easily utilized service.

The biggest issue with this, other than actually making the infrastructure to make it work, is it splitting the community even more with some players playing mini mods, some playing with some custom content, and others playing standard etc, but more likely than that, servers will not run these custom mini-mods etc for more than just a one-off events. It is hard enough as it is to get servers to run the different map layers than the most popular ones even

TBH IMO we are better off spending that time integrating any good content fully into the mod, rather than having some possibly low quality / questionable content that players can opt to download and play, some may even change the core beliefs of our mod, which is the same reason why we outlawed server-side modding in the early days as servers where turning PR into vBF2 with more powerful weapons with them lower the spawn times of vehicles etc.

Bluedrake42 wrote:Also I'm not sure... but there is potentially even an angle to have Project Reality supported through Origin. I'm not sure how feasible this is... but I don't think it would be impossible. If it is... I have many contacts to start that dialogue. I think EA would see it as a victory over Steam, and possible a welcome public relations benefit. I know they have done similar things before, if not rarely...

If EA was up to that I'm sure we would be, in principle

TBH the biggest setback in terms of people leaving we have had other than Slick, was the loss of both our Animators (Chuc and KaB) as while they where both more than happy to hand over all their knowledge etc, they didn't have any time they could put towards making new animations in the future which did set us back a bit. But luckily Wlfk has come out of the community in the last few months and has really stepped up in the animations department. TBH we had the exact same issue when Chuc initially left but then KaB stepped up to that too.

So the problem there really hasn't been so much knowledge, tbh that has been handed down pretty well in most cases though tutorials and just internal comms (old members still chip into our internal dev discussions now and then even). The bigger loss is not having anyone of a particular skillset, that is when things really grind to a hult in terms of development.

What is your recruitment process when you decide to start recruiting for new developers of a specific skillset? Also how specialized do they need to be within a specific tool/engine/etc, and are there any major idiosyncrasies for specific talents specific to the Refractor engine? Quite simply... how feasible is it to headhunt in other development forums (Unreal Engine 4, Unity, etc) that share similarities with the workflow of Refractor?

As for where are documentation is, pretty much all of it is fully public knowledge and can be found in our tutorials section, anything that isn't in the public domain is not there since either it has no relevance to the community and/or is sensitive material that could be exploited in the wrong hands (like how to use our SVN servers).
Modding Tutorials - Project Reality Forums

Do you have an issue or commit comment system? When someone submits code, or you do your sprints/epics/etc/however-the-fuck-you-decide-to-do-your-stuff where is that kept? Do you have anything like that anywhere publicly? What is your general project management environment like? Do you only use SVN commit comments? Or is there something external?

A download button for some tools like the BF2 Editor in the launcher might be an idea but having them fully integrated would take up too much space, and while it might get a few more people to load up the editor, without actually seeking out to make a map from the offset it will probably put more people off from mapping etc than getting people into it since the learning curve is pretty steep to begin with.

Sorry, that is what I meant. Of course it wouldn't automatically download all the tools for clients not interested in mapping. However just centralizing the entire development tool library for clients, so those who are interested can more easily access all the required software they need for content creation, could by itself likely vastly improve community development overall.

Just a small "tools" section within the launcher, or otherwise. It could potentially even utilize the auto-updater system, or it could just be a simple file host URL. Either way, little things like that have major impacts in contributor conversions.

The biggest issue with this, other than actually making the infrastructure to make it work, is it splitting the community even more with some players playing mini mods, some playing with some custom content, and others playing standard etc, but more likely than that, servers will not run these custom mini-mods etc for more than just a one-off events. It is hard enough as it is to get servers to run the different map layers than the most popular ones even

TBH IMO we are better off spending that time integrating any good content fully into the mod, rather than having some possibly low quality / questionable content that players can opt to download and play, some may even change the core beliefs of our mod, which is the same reason why we outlawed server-side modding in the early days as servers where turning PR into vBF2 with more powerful weapons with them lower the spawn times of vehicles etc.

I understand that... and I'm not asking that we open up the flood gates of community development projects. However... even making an "official" submission and approval process for content, or anything more obvious and clear to prospective content creators could have a massive impact.

I've read your mapping tutorials, and otherwise... they're all very thorough, and very good (although a few possibly outdated, but that's a different problem) however for a game like Project Reality... if you really want to encourage community contribution, you have to spend almost an equal amount of time "designing" the tutorial/development experience, as well as the game.

I know this probably puts a bad taste in some developers mouths... since development is "supposed" to be awkward and not straightforward... but at the end of the day, if you want more people creating content for your game, you have to make that entire side of the game equally entertaining and interesting to be involved with.

Things like having a tool download menu in the launcher is just the beginning... but those engaging video tutorials, pretty PDF tutorials, as well as just about anything else to get your common prospective content creator excited about creating content... really makes a difference.

Also putting together a comprehensive list of different things a creator can do, and the difficulty levels of each... almost designing a tiered career path for new contributors... can help get originally completely inept content creators quickly up to speed, and help them see more immediate results of their work... potentially getting them more involved long-term.

I've seen this happen pretty frequently in UE4... where they do simple programs on how to design a level, that you can play in same day. Is it an incredible thing for an amateur to achieve? No of course not... its pretty low skill... but it really helps get those people addicted to the process, and to the engine.

Get em while they're young... and stupid. They'll stick around forever.

If EA was up to that I'm sure we would be, in principle

If you are interested you would have to PM me, it would be rude of me to mention names or otherwise here. I'm not promising anything either, I just know a few people that could potentially get the conversation started... and of course I occasionally get invited to Redwood City. Things like that usually just revolve around shaking the right hands. EA can be a pretty flexible company if you find common ground.

Unfortunately I really need to work on actual work now. I am neglecting my own people writing these posts. If you have any other questions let me know. I would like to think that PR doesn't need to die, its just a matter of infrastructure, expansion, and exploration of new/different opportunities. Possibly also legal as well... I don't know, I would have to learn more about how you all work first.

Bluedrake42 wrote: Sorry, that is what I meant. Of course it wouldn't automatically download all the tools for clients not interested in mapping. However just centralizing the entire development tool library for clients, so those who are interested can more easily access all the required software they need for content creation, could by itself likely vastly improve community development overall.

Just a small "tools" section within the launcher, or otherwise. It could potentially even utilize the auto-updater system, or it could just be a simple file host URL. Either way, little things like that have major impacts in contributor conversions.

There's no such thing as "common tools" for bf2 modding as pretty much all work being done through text editor that's already a part of OS, and rest of tools(bfeditor\3ds\whatever) optional helpers that just simplify work in a way it's suits modder. F.e. rhino being oldfag still sticks to max9 while our new animator wlfk working in max18, and both of them had to fine their workflow experimenting themself.

[R-DEV]rPoXoTauJIo wrote:There's no such thing as "common tools" for bf2 modding as pretty much all work being done through text editor that's already a part of OS, and rest of tools(bfeditor\3ds\whatever) optional helpers that just simplify work in a way it's suits modder. F.e. rhino being oldfag still sticks to max9 while our new animator wlfk working in max18, and both of them had to fine their workflow experimenting themself.

No of course, but things like mapping tools and otherwise is pretty significant. Obviously you're not going to bundle something like Maya with the launcher.

Bluedrake42 wrote:The only reason EA hasn't smacked PR is because a red flag hasn't gone up yet. If RDEV were to attempt a Steam release, or any other high-brow distribution, EA would quickly move to counter.

LMAO. PR is still only a mod. Sophisticated, total conversion and etc. but still only a mod. How it can be released on Steam as a separate game?

Bluedrake42 wrote:That alone cripples full control of the project, as well as the full potential it has to grow and expand. Staying local looks worse and worse, especially as viable licensed alternatives continue to grow in accessibility and power.

Such alternatives like...

Michael_Denmark wrote:What would it take for making it worth for EA, to literally fund this modification?

Money. But that wouldn't be a thing because they're not interested in something like that. Correct me if I wrong, but people was trying to contact EA on that subject before and nothing has happened. None of the recent EA projects have any kind of modding tools released by the developers.

Bluedrake42 wrote:If RDEV were to start cataloging and archiving assets, meshes, and all universal file formats into a single cohesive library...

There's a possibility that R-Devs never had full access(I mean including legal ability to copy, modify or distribute) to some part of those source files in the first place, at least not to all of them and especially current R-Dev team. You've mentioned releasing PR on steam early on. Even if EA would be okay with that or PRM would migrate to other engine there is still a problem. Lots of PRM content belongs to people who are no longer available or not really into giving up their rights for free. I think this is the biggest problem(legal at least) with moving everything on a new engine.

Bluedrake42 wrote:So of the original Core Team... the entirety of Project Reality's original management team, including every lead developer (except for AfterDune,) and over 70% of all core developers for Project Reality, have left the project.

More than 9 years have passed since the release of the PRM. How long was your longest job? Mine was 6 years because I've been paid well, but that was exhausting and felt just wrong after my growth as a worker has stopped.

Bluedrake42 wrote:So all the people complaining about Project Reality "dying" and that there aren't enough players... this is the reason why. Its not because not enough people play the game... or we need to promote more... or yada yada... its because the community hasn't been given the control it needs to continue this project, by an elite few who just happened to have usurped control of the original project.

I'm not fear mongering. I'm just frustrated that the future of my favorite game has been gummed up by political BS and childish power playing. A constant theme with anything related to the Project Reality community for some reason. So forgive me if I frequently sound bitter, if I do it is because I am.

There are some flaws in your logic. Current R-Dev team didn't hijack anything. They've just proceed to work on the project which was never "community" in a sense you're seeing it. There was a thing called "Black Sand Studios" in the beginning. I think you see PRM as something which belongs to us, players, which is really not, even though we can contribute. We don't really own anything here, even our copies of the mod doesn't really belongs to us(or R-Devs either), and there's nothing wrong with that I think.

I think that R-Devs have to regulate licenses because they can get their *** kicked for dumb people who would do dumb things with the server in the end. Something like "New Year's Holocaust Event" on the basis of EA's BF2 mod can turn everything in a shit show for everyone and even get mod to be shut down.

Why are you upset with politics in the PR team? It's essential part of every human society. That's basically what means to be a community(to participate in common politics).

Open source wouldn't make anything easier because it would bring many versions and edits to PRM and as it was said before will split playerbase. And still even if PRM would go open source it would take someone to control "current" or if you want "stable" version. It would take some man-hours to check all different versions for bugs and to decide which is going to get in the stable release and which is not. Don't forget about trying to compile all that different versions together.

But I think that there are some things which can be done in that field. R-Devs can do something to allow custom content to be loaded on the fly. This will help with events and stuff like that. Some additional mapping tools(since BF2e is total shit) would be helpful too, but someone have to invest huge amount of time in making them. There are lots of things can be done in order to "fix"(if you want) PRM without turning it into something else.

PS. Hell, I was reading and answering from the beginning and just got to the Rhino's answers. Fuck it, I will leave it as it is.

Bluedrake42 wrote:No of course, but things like mapping tools and otherwise is pretty significant. Obviously you're not going to bundle something like Maya with the launcher.

Mapping tools isn't just bfeditor neither. F.e. pretty much all of mappers doing their terrain&textures in external programs. Obviously we're not going to bundle something like Geocontrol\Worldmachine\Photoshop with the launcher

assetruler69 wrote:LMAO. PR is still only a mod. Sophisticated, total conversion and etc. but still only a mod. How it can be released on Steam as a separate game?

CoH: Blitzkreig did. Just as example.

Holy **** I am glad I didn't read all that.

Just play the game guys, populate the servers and keep being passionate about the best game in the world.

[R-DEV]rPoXoTauJIo wrote:Mapping tools isn't just bfeditor neither. F.e. pretty much all of mappers doing their terrain&textures in external programs. Obviously we're not going to bundle something like Geocontrol\Worldmachine\Photoshop with the launcher

Yar.

Again I am worried that just giving downloads to even the tools we can without the proper context will just lead to more confusion from people on how to use them and will just overwhelm them more than anything.

The way we have it setup now is you find the tools, with download links, in the tutorials which teach you how to use them and require them as you need them and tbh, still convinced that is the best approach myself, although the tutorials themselves I agree could be improved and updated a lot, they do their job and people using them aren't complaining, other than some really old tuts missing pics etc

[R-DEV]rPoXoTauJIo wrote:CoH: Blitzkreig did. Just as example.

Did they do that on their own? Or did THQ allow them do that? I said that because I really doubt that EA would be that interested in doing anything like that.

Bluto's right! I hear your rallying call Bluedrake and stand with you. Let's do it!

From now on, anyone that says this game dying is dead to me! I wish they would just die off silently instead of ***** and moan. If you don’t want to help us then shut the fuck up and get out of here. We’re not giving up! This ship isn’t going down without a fight!! Who else is with us?!!!

From my own experience, I definitely agree with Bluedrake that certain things need to change around here in order to unleash our community’s and game’s potential. He is asking all of the right questions. Separately, I will begin to address issues individually so they can be focused on and dealt with efficiently. I sense a bunch of talent on the forums that hasn’t been utilized due to the apparent friction of the development process here. I personally have been discouraged to take further action despite a team member generously offering mentorship. However, it’s inspiring to witness Bluedrake and Rhino talk shop instead of what they used to do. Their teamwork is a great sign and motivates me to take action again. I have a bunch of similar concepts in the works and will share them soon. I want to expose my learning experience as a student here in order to improve the overall development process. I hope to then teach and enable more people to contribute as well.

Teamwork makes the dream work.

assetruler69 wrote:Money. But that wouldn't be a thing because they're not interested in something like that. Correct me if I wrong, but people was trying to contact EA on that subject before and nothing has happened. None of the recent EA projects have any kind of modding tools released by the developers.

Sure they are interested in money. They do have shareholders, right. Could be I got the information wrong, getting old you know, so, please bear over with me, if the following three largest shareholders of EA, are outdated:

Fidelity Management and Research Company 29,914,178 shares
Fidelity Management & Research Company is a privately owned investment manager. The firm primarily provides its services to investment companies. It also caters to pooled investment vehicles and other investment advisers. The firm manages equity, fixed income, and balanced mutual funds for its clients. It invests in the public equity and fixed income markets. The firm was founded in 1946 and is based in Boston, Massachusetts with additional offices in London, United Kingdom, Merrimack, New Hampshire, Miami, Florida, Montreal, Quebec, Smithfield, Rhode Island, and Toronto, Canada. Fidelity Management & Research Company operates as a subsidiary of Fidelity Investments.

Vanguard Group Inc 25,174,349 shares
The Vanguard Group is an American registered investment advisor based in Malvern, Pennsylvania with over $4.5 trillion in assets under management. It is the largest provider of mutual funds and the second-largest provider of exchange-traded funds (ETFs) in the world after BlackRock's iShares.[6] In addition to mutual funds and ETFs, Vanguard offers brokerage services, variable and fixed annuities, educational account services, financial planning, asset management, and trust services.

Founder and former chairman John C. Bogle is credited with the creation of the first index fund available to individual investors and has been a proponent of and a major enabler of low-cost investing by individuals.[7][8] Vanguard is structured as a mutual company; it is owned by funds managed by the company, and is therefore owned by its customers.[9][10] Vanguard offers two classes of most of its funds: investor shares and admiral shares. Admiral shares have slightly lower expense ratios but require a higher minimum investment.[11]

T. Rowe Price Associates, Inc. 22,660,101 shares
T. Rowe Price Group, Inc. is an American publicly owned global asset management firm that offers funds, advisory services, account management, and retirement plans and services for individuals, institutions, and financial intermediaries. The firm, with assets under management of more than $800 billion dollars at the end of 2016, is headquartered at 100 East Pratt Street in Baltimore, Maryland, and its 16 offices serve clients in 45 countries around the world.[1]

It was founded in 1937 by Thomas Rowe Price, Jr. who is best known for developing the growth stock philosophy of investing.

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This information is of course useless in it self, however, perhaps the key to the funding scenario, can still be found within this context?