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VTRaptor wrote:Each one was borderline useless and the only APCs that meant something were the beast(every 15 minutes) and scorpion(every 20 minutes). What I tried to do here was reducing amount and increasing quality of the vehicles

We figured the same and got that down to BMP2-M; and BTR-80 as consolation prize for when BMP is down.

VTRaptor wrote:while keeping lower spawn times so crews don't have to be bored waiting or frustrated loosing them

You could argue US CAS crews are also bored most of the round.


In general we reduced Muttrah to one layer so we could focus the feedback and we are up for re-adding alternative layers. But I think we've also reached the practical limits of this map's design, whatever we go with, we're still left with chokepoints such as D11 or MEC main exit.

Outlawz7 wrote:You could argue US CAS crews are also bored most of the round.


In general we reduced Muttrah to one layer so we could focus the feedback and we are up for re-adding alternative layers. But I think we've also reached the practical limits of this map's design, whatever we go with, we're still left with chokepoints such as D11 or MEC main exit.

That's why in LRG suggestion cobra has 15 minutes, although alternatively it could still be 20 minutes respawn, but delay of only 5 minutes so that in case of loosing it once, you get another chance (it could help dealing with NC and dock rushes). Right now it spawns after 20 minutes, but usually it takes 5-10 minutes to go down, after that it's another 20 minutes of waiting and the round is usually over by then, so effectively It's a 5-10 minute asset you spend whole game waiting on and simply put isn't a fun experience.

Honestly regarding D11 I can't see issue with that place, it's just a map feature and to block it effectively you need a proper squad to be there and same can be done on chokepoints of other maps. DOD covering actual exit of main base however should expand all the way into fortress in my opinion, not only to make camping it harder, but also force mortar squads out of there, as they will always draw enemies to it and in effect - main base exit.

Outlawz7 wrote:We figured the same and got that down to BMP2-M; and BTR-80 as consolation prize for when BMP is down.

Giving MEC extra BTR-80 would not be bad idea. Keeping LAV-25 for USMC would not be bad idea also. Maybe both factions should go more into light vehicles, with MEC getting few delayed Dzik 3 and Boragh as counter to .50 cal armed HMMWV.

Outlawz7 wrote:In general we reduced Muttrah to one layer so we could focus the feedback and we are up for re-adding alternative layers. But I think we've also reached the practical limits of this map's design, whatever we go with, we're still left with chokepoints such as D11 or MEC main exit.

How douable would be offmap main for MEC?

For example, something like this:

InfantryGamer42 wrote:That is more map issue, which different placement of main would never be able to fully fix, with only exception being placement of offmap main base for MEC in SW corner, which would then be connected by network of offmap roads with map area at A8, A9, B13 and (hypotethical) H13 road.

VTRaptor wrote:That's why in LRG suggestion cobra has 15 minutes, although alternatively it could still be 20 minutes respawn, but delay of only 5 minutes so that in case of loosing it once, you get another chance (it could help dealing with NC and dock rushes). Right now it spawns after 20 minutes, but usually it takes 5-10 minutes to go down, after that it's another 20 minutes of waiting and the round is usually over by then, so effectively It's a 5-10 minute asset you spend whole game waiting on and simply put isn't a fun experience.

Droping it to 15 minutes could work nice. CAS Huey could also see comeback, this time in more permanent way.

VTRaptor wrote:Honestly regarding D11 I can't see issue with that place, it's just a map feature and to block it effectively you need a proper squad to be there and same can be done on chokepoints of other maps.

D11 is different compared to chokepoints on other maps, in sense that other maps offer usable alternatives. D11 on Muttrah is safest choice, while usable alternatives to it almost do not exist.

ismaelassassin wrote:Layout idea!
MEC spawns on center-west with 3 flags on their possesion, one on mosque, one on north city and one on fortress/old main. they have to secure the flags furthest away. USMC has to attack the city in a 2-pronged attack, having to secure both flags in their flanks to keep advancing towards the center, closing in to the MEC base and closing them off from the rest of the city. At all times 2 flags will have to be captured to keep advancing, the initial MEC flags also cannot be re-captured by MEC.
Asset:

USMC: Various helicopters. AAVPs
MEC: Jeeps, trucks, various APCs. Maybe a tank.

Intresting idea tho MEC main would be easily visible from city center high T shapes meaning people would shoot inside.

As alternative/lrg still i would prefer PLA vs Brits (or MEC) and putting DoD at the mountains at Std layout and leaving them open just for Lrg for example

Also... bringing back Littlebird - for old players it would be time of nostalgia. COOP Lrg layer have them so i guess that's possible

VTRaptor wrote: "Stryker will get demolished by any BTR". Same can be said about many other vehicles like warrior vs bmp-1 or 2, zsl-92 25mm vs cv90. This is not a laboratory where you compare DPS and conclude which vehicle "demolishes" other. Balance is asymetrical here, as strykers will work better against INF, BTRs can counter them but won't be wiping the floor with INF so easily as only the 30mm variant will be any good there.

My main argument with your asset suggestion was the fact that there's a btr80a in there versus the strykers. Now lets talk about the strong points of each of these vehicles (META-WISE) you'll clearly see that even an inexperienced crew in a btr80A can successfully kill anybody in a stryker with their fire power alone (Even if they miss half of their shots), with that given that MEC has the strongest LAT in the game the strykers are not going to be successful in the city at all.

Besides that, compare the strykers to the AAVPs we currently have and you'll clearly see the big difference, the AAVP's armor makes it worth while to drive it into the city without fear that ONE lat will instantly make you vanish. The only thing I can actually suggest to you, if you REALLY want strykers in muttrah city, is to give them RPG cages or they're not going to have any chance.

If you still think you want strykers on Muttrah ask yourself these questions:
What situations would the stryker be useful on a mostly urban map?
What exactly will you be able to accomplish with the stryker?
How would you perform in a stryker at the frontlines?
Imagine going up against an EQUALLY experienced crew in the BTR80A, How would you attempt to fight them?
(MEME) Do you think smoke stops bullets?

1x Bradley vs 2x BTR-80A would have its own set of problems and is not ideal either.

I know the Bradley will have its own problems, its legit going to be similar to how the BMP2M is right now but I believe the 80A still has a chance if they use actual tactics against the bradley instead of going guns blazing straight into it from the front, just like Chinese 25mm vs CV90s.

Coalz101 wrote:My main argument with your asset suggestion was the fact that there's a btr80a in there versus the strykers. Now lets talk about the strong points of each of these vehicles (META-WISE) you'll clearly see that even an inexperienced crew in a btr80A can successfully kill anybody in a stryker with their fire power alone (Even if they miss half of their shots), with that given that MEC has the strongest LAT in the game the strykers are not going to be successful in the city at all.

Besides that, compare the strykers to the AAVPs we currently have and you'll clearly see the big difference, the AAVP's armor makes it worth while to drive it into the city without fear that ONE lat will instantly make you vanish. The only thing I can actually suggest to you, if you REALLY want strykers in muttrah city, is to give them RPG cages or they're not going to have any chance.

If you still think you want strykers on Muttrah ask yourself these questions:
What situations would the stryker be useful on a mostly urban map?
What exactly will you be able to accomplish with the stryker?
How would you perform in a stryker at the frontlines?
Imagine going up against an EQUALLY experienced crew in the BTR80A, How would you attempt to fight them?
(MEME) Do you think smoke stops bullets?



I know the Bradley will have its own problems, its legit going to be similar to how the BMP2M is right now but I believe the 80A still has a chance if they use actual tactics against the bradley instead of going guns blazing straight into it from the front, just like Chinese 25mm vs CV90s.

Strongest LAT is another topic, but what's actually important here is that stryker doesn't die to one RPG-26 to front nor side. AAVP armor is practically the same. Test it yourself or ask someone to give you the numbers.

You seem to contradict yourself. First you say that BTR-80A will demolish strykers, and then use different logic saying 2 BTRs-80A will stand a chance fighting with a bradley by applying tactics (but remember - strykers can't use brain and MUST expose themselves to enemy fire and MUST always pick fights they cannot win).

Anyway, I might just scrap the current ALT template to put different factions instead as someone suggested that already.



Which i did just now, new suggestion is in the first post.

Has anyone ever suggested running different factions on Muttrah? That would be a fun way of changing things up without having a complete rebalance of flag layouts. Would be cool to see a layer with RUS vs GBA, or China vs Hamas on a nighttime version. I just don't see a huge layout change without changing the well established chokepoints we have now. Insurgency layer always sounds fun too but I feel like it would be absolute hell for blufor.

Edit:

VTRaptor wrote:
Anyway, I might just scrap the current ALT template to put different factions instead as someone suggested that already.



Which i did just now, new suggestion is in the first post.

sorry raptor i just read that as soon as I posted XD

Muttrah is a great close quarters maps. Would be awesome to see a proper 7.62 AK faction on it.

dcm wrote:Muttrah is a great close quarters maps. Would be awesome to see a proper 7.62 AK faction on it.

I am still surprised we don't have alternative AK-74/47 MEC faction

Corvin wrote:I am still surprised we don't have alternative AK-74/47 MEC faction

We do not have it because almost every REDFOR faction is AKM or AK-74 faction.

Like it's not enough already that the MEC vehicle pool is a clone of the Russian one.

Corvin wrote:I am still surprised we don't have alternative AK-74/47 MEC faction

Syrians are the closest thing we got to a proper AK faction. By proper I mean 7.62x39.

Outlawz7 wrote:Like it's not enough already that the MEC vehicle pool is a clone of the Russian one.

That's why it could go more towards AKM/47, AKs-74u, RPD way with mix of attached scopes, grips etc. G3s are already really arguable thing tho and probably MEC should be exactly what i suggest for long time.

Personally i would love to see KH2002 or more HK models (missing old HK AR from 0.5)

More Aks is cringe but HK33 from Izmash is new and gives MEC a different approach in CQB. On topic now. Asset wise I agree that 1v1 or 2v1 battles shouldn't always determine the allocation. Asymmetric asset balance was nice because any asset could be easily countered. I do kinda wish the osprey came back along with double cap flags. It was a good way to break stalemates if the pilot was able to get crates behind the enemy lines and a squad got inserted fast enough.

As for alternate layers, France on Muttrah would be a nice little play considering PR lore they're about 400km away on Masirah.

More AKs is never cringe. AK vs AK is the best PvP combat in the whole game.

I feel like muttrah is being underutilized as a PvP map. Because it's perfectly suited for close quarters with great sight lines down tightly packed alleys. So many enterable buildings too. And it's vertical. With all the T-shapes. Letting combat occur on multiple plains. Personally I'd love for IDF vs Hamas layer on muttrah. Because both teams are made for each other and use similar weapons. Let the idf start at docks and give hamas the fortress. No watercraft. You gotta swim boy!

dcm wrote:Syrians are the closest thing we got to a proper AK faction. By proper I mean 7.62x39.

Syrian's would be a lot of fun of Muttrah. Have MEC spawn carrier tho.

labonte95 wrote:Syrian's would be a lot of fun of Muttrah. Have MEC spawn carrier tho.

No MEC please. I cant stand battle rifle iron sight layers. The AK kills just as fast as the G3 and has more ammo and lower recoil. Scoped G3 tips the scales too much into the favor of the Mec, when up against FSA or Insurgents. It's strange really. MEC are the most bipolar faction in PR. On one hand; they're OP with scopes, even against scoped intermediate caliber factions. And way too weak without scopes. Every scoped G3 is like a marksman rifle without the annoying accuracy penalties when firing quickly from the shoulder.

dcm wrote:And way too weak without scopes.

G3 without scope, after addition of zoom, is definitly not weak rifle. With zoom, ironsight G3 is still more then deadly in mid range fighting (and in good hands, even some longer range shots are not out of relm of possibility), while it actually becomes controlable in shorth range fighting.

InfantryGamer42 wrote:G3 without scope, after addition of zoom, is definitly not weak rifle. With zoom, ironsight G3 is still more then deadly in mid range fighting (and in good hands, even some longer range shots are not out of relm of possibility), while it actually becomes controlable in shorth range fighting.

No. I despise mec iron sight layers. Just played sbeneh. And even though we won, the infantry combat was extremely unpleasant for me. The mp5 helped bridge the close quarters battle gap somewhat. But it was still inferior to the AK. Most of my kills were from commandeered enemy weapons.

Do we all at least agree that muttrah needs more layers? The current one is getting a bit old.