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Posted: 2007-02-17 19:30
by eddie
BigPipe wrote:the top of the m1 abrams has the weakest armour. if an m1a1 is hit by a 50 cal rifle from someone on a rooftop, the round will penetrate the top. saw it on discovery channel.

rpgs will punch through the side skirts too
Do you have a link to prove it will penetrate the side skirts?

It's quite easy to believe the .50 would penetrate top armour.

Posted: 2007-02-17 19:36
by Zimbower
I am right now trying to find some US military source about the RPG 27 and 29.. there is good page out there that I found before .

http://www.strategypage.com/military_ph ... 04614.aspx

Posted: 2007-02-17 19:50
by Zimbower
Zimbower wrote:I am right now trying to find some US military source about the RPG 27 and 29.. there is good page out there that I found before .

http://www.strategypage.com/military_ph ... 04614.aspx

Possible RPG hits?

Posted: 2007-02-17 19:52
by eddie
Possibly, but as you can see the tank has not been blown up or "KIA", just damaged slightly.

Posted: 2007-02-17 20:14
by Bob_Marley
Mekstizzle wrote:Bob Marley made a gun/bullet/ballistic/killing machine mistake! It's 7.62x39!

The bullet is the same, it just doesn't go as fast as 7.62X51 Nato. I think. :confused:
Image

Our survey says: X There are 3 main different kinds of Russian 7.62mm ammunition.

7.62x25mm Russian as used in the TT-33 pistol, PPsH41, VC modified MAT-49s, etc, etc...

7.62x54mm Rimmed Russian, as used in the SVD, PK/PKM, Moisn-Nagant rifles, etc, etc...

7.62x39mm M1943 Soviet as used in the SKS, AK-47, AK-103, Type-81, so on and so fourth.

And as for the actual bullets being the same, well, thats just plain untrue. Lets look at a comparison photo.

Image

Now, the 7.62x39mm M1943 Soviet (I may also refur to this as "7.62x39mm Warsaw Pact",a bad habbit I picked up from playing too much Jagged Alliance 2), second from the left (the far left is the British .280 cartrage of the 1950s) features a stubby, less pointed and less streamlined bullet, compared to the 7.62x51mm NATO (far right) which features a longer, more pointed and streamlined bullet. The other round in the picture (between the 7.62x39mm and 7.62x51mm) is a 5.56x45mm NATO. And I know that that "picture" is actually several pictures put together into one. But its the only thing I could be bothered to find at the time, and serves my purposes

And so ends our lesson.

Posted: 2007-02-17 20:21
by Wipeout
Bob_Marley wrote:Image

Our survey says: X There are 3 main different kinds of Russian 7.62mm ammunition.

7.62x25mm Russian as used in the TT-33 pistol, PPsH41, VC modified MAT-49s, etc, etc...

7.62x54mm Rimmed Russian, as used in the SVD, PK/PKM, Moisn-Nagant rifles, etc, etc...

7.62x39mm M1943 Soviet as used in the SKS, AK-47, AK-103, Type-81, so on and so fourth.

And as for the actual bullets being the same, well, thats just plain untrue. Lets look at a comparison photo.

Image

Now, the 7.62x39mm M1943 Soviet (I may also refur to this as "7.62x39mm Warsaw Pact",a bad habbit I picked up from playing too much Jagged Alliance 2), second from the left (the far left is the British .280 cartrage of the 1950s) features a stubby, less pointed and less streamlined bullet, compared to the 7.62x51mm NATO (far right) which features a longer, more pointed and streamlined bullet. The other round in the picture (between the 7.62x39mm and 7.62x51mm) is a 5.56x45mm NATO. And I know that that "picture" is actually several pictures put together into one. But its the only thing I could be bothered to find at the time, and serves my purposes

And so ends our lesson.
ooo someone pissed marley off.. *hides* interesting info thanks.. Learn something everyday..

Posted: 2007-02-17 20:26
by Animalmother
'[R-MOD wrote:eddie']Do you have a link to prove it will penetrate the side skirts?

It's quite easy to believe the .50 would penetrate top armour.
I saw a pic of an RPG7 punching a nice clean hole through the sideskirt. Searching for it...

Posted: 2007-02-17 20:32
by lonelyjew
The RPG 7 and RPG 29 are two completely different weapons and shouldn't be compared. That's like comparing a LAW to a SRAW. It is rumored that an RPG 29's were capable of going through the frontal armor of T-80's and T-90's.

Posted: 2007-02-17 20:53
by dunkellic
Gunwing wrote:... And the AK won on reliability and damage potental but the M16 one out on Accurcey and that it is easy to make unlike the AK that needs to have wooden parts made for it.
ah, actually, the ak would be much easier to make because it´s mechanics are much simpler (and a bazillion times more reliable than those of the ar-15)
except the first ak-47s, which were made out of one massive block of steel, those took a lot of time to be produced and were quite expensive, but as soon as they switched to stamped steel, the rifle was pretty much cheap.
also, the accuracy isn´t that much worse than the m16´s, lets just say it is enough for modern day combat ;)
Gunwing wrote: Also the AK is twice as heavy as a M16, and has easly 4 times the recoil. On the other hand the M16 has less recoil and is easyer to control. Then agian you can't hit a person with the butt of an M16 hard enough to knock them out without breaking the M16 in half. An AK you can realy hit sombody with it and then go and shoot them when your done.
the higher recoil also means more kinetic energy, which in turn means that the bullet has much more "punch" - and that in turn has been caused by the bigger caliber (7.62x39)
Gunwing wrote: In short both guns are pritty much on equal footing when it comes to fire arms. It's only one was made to be high tech, the other was made to be low tech.

i wouldnt actually say that the ak is "low-tech" and the m16 "high-tech".
it is true, the ak is darn simple for a rifle, but that´s also it´s biggest advantage.
the rifle is near indestructable, has a chromed (!) barrel, which basically makes it immune to rust and stuff - and it worked, wether you´ve stored it in a puddle of mud or in water, the rifle just worked.
it was quite accurate (except you´ve emptied the magazine in full auto without letting the trigger go..) had a bigger magazine than the m16 (when the americans saw the 30 round magazines, they also wanted them) and was cheaper.
and let´s not forget, everyone could use that rifle, unlike the m16.
okay, yes, probably everyone knows how to shot an m16, but how to clean it? no way - the m16 just needs a lot of care and while i dont say it´s a bad rifle, it has some serious disadvantages compared to an ak.
i already mentioned that it isn´t exactly the most reliable rifle/easiest to take care of, but also it has a smaller cartridge and is more expensive.
though i´ve got to admit that at longer ranges it is more accurate, is easier to controll and lighter - ah well, lets just stop it here, otherwise this will develop into an "m16 vs. ak-47" thread

Posted: 2007-02-17 20:56
by Bob_Marley
Still, an RPG-7 with the latest PG-7VR tandem warhead offers similar penetration (around 600mm of steel armour + ERA), but with a substantially reduced range, 200m vs 500m.

Mind you, most insurgents are probubly using the older PG-7V or PG-7VL rockets. So the point is probubly quite moot.

Posted: 2007-02-17 20:59
by Jonathan_Archer_nx01
Bob_Marley wrote:Image

Our survey says: X There are 3 main different kinds of Russian 7.62mm ammunition.

7.62x25mm Russian as used in the TT-33 pistol, PPsH41, VC modified MAT-49s, etc, etc...

7.62x54mm Rimmed Russian, as used in the SVD, PK/PKM, Moisn-Nagant rifles, etc, etc...

7.62x39mm M1943 Soviet as used in the SKS, AK-47, AK-103, Type-81, so on and so fourth.

And as for the actual bullets being the same, well, thats just plain untrue. Lets look at a comparison photo.

Image

Now, the 7.62x39mm M1943 Soviet (I may also refur to this as "7.62x39mm Warsaw Pact",a bad habbit I picked up from playing too much Jagged Alliance 2), second from the left (the far left is the British .280 cartrage of the 1950s) features a stubby, less pointed and less streamlined bullet, compared to the 7.62x51mm NATO (far right) which features a longer, more pointed and streamlined bullet. The other round in the picture (between the 7.62x39mm and 7.62x51mm) is a 5.56x45mm NATO. And I know that that "picture" is actually several pictures put together into one. But its the only thing I could be bothered to find at the time, and serves my purposes

And so ends our lesson.
I second that. IRL G3 behaves more like a SVD than Ak-47. Its accuracy, damage and penetration are more comparable to sniper rifles.

Posted: 2007-02-17 21:49
by NikovK
Ugh. Guys, ERA equivelancy to RHA, in fact, RHA figures themselves, are like Alabama hog weighing; put a hog on one end of a plank, lever it, stack rocks on the other end of the plank until they balance, and then guess how much the rocks weigh. The "salesman's estimates" fail to account for the true composition of the armor (Abrams have a ceramic layer to defeat HEAT rounds, which does not melt like steel, and a DU layer, which is far harder than steel), as well as the specific angle of the attack or any disruptive factors, like RPG wobble.

In terms of accuracy the RPG is really much better than in real life; the rockets actually fly INTO a crosswind and need to be ranged pretty precisely, not to mention given lead.

Posted: 2007-02-17 22:05
by Jonathan_Archer_nx01
How about to make them real?

No, forget it.

Heavy AT kits are overpowered.

Posted: 2007-02-17 22:14
by lonelyjew
Jonathan_Archer_nx01 wrote: Heavy AT kits are overpowered.
How? The things are designed to knock MBT's out with one hit, they've been nerfed for balancing.

RPG

Posted: 2007-02-19 06:45
by Zimbower

Posted: 2007-02-19 07:11
by Katarn
Gunwing wrote:Also the AK is twice as heavy as a M16
I don't know where the hell you're getting your info, the M16 weighs 3.9kg loaded and the AK47 weighs 4.3kg. 4 times the recoil? What the hell? Roughly equating the muzzle energy (not taking into account the superior recoil-reduction on the AK47 due to it being slightly heavier with a heavier stock as well), 1991-J:1798-J ratio, the additional recoil is very little.

AK47 video

Posted: 2007-02-19 07:46
by Zimbower
A nice videon about the Ak47, enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCpgj6z6h7I

Posted: 2007-02-19 07:53
by Spaz
"Give the ppl a ak47 and they got the freedom to speak" <3

Posted: 2007-02-19 08:11
by WNxKenwayy
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW

ignorance overload in this thread...I mean serious WOW!

No way in unholy hell would we ever model a RPG-7 as being a catastrophic kill on a tank. The best you could hope for in real life, and the best they've achieved, is a mobility kill with a hit to the tracks which would be SUPREMELY impressive to pull off.

I know the picture you're talking about animal mother, and before you waste anymore time it wasn't a RPG-7. At least not a normal one. To the best of my knowledge, it was never determined what hit the tank. It was rumored to be some prototype russian cousin of the rpg-7 that's never really been exported, and it should be said that it occured in the very first part of the war, when insurgents (Iraqi Army at the time) would weld rebar to the front of the RPG's with obviously horrible results, but no ones tested it to find out if it could create a SABOT like effect. The combined effect of that hit was absolutely jack all as far as killing effect.

Reactive armor (which these tanks aren't 'modeled' with but we can assume they would have) pretty much negates a RPG's effect. Also, neato fact, want to know how we stoped RPG attacks in the first part of the war? We wrapped our APC's (which a RPG can penetrate and cause some damage) in wire fencing, the kind around schools and government buildings. The warhead would get stuck in the fencing and not detonate sense its a contact trigger. That's why the striker's now have that wire grid setup around its outside.

Posted: 2007-02-19 09:34
by Zimbower
Model then the rpg-29 and 27.
Ok then,this mod will never be more realistic than BF2.Because BF2 engine isnt coded to handle such realism . Forget this project mini realism mod.
To recode the BF2 game engine you need license.