Project Reality Forums

Just want to let you know I appreciate what you're doing here, Mike.

When your questions (see above) are answered and another version is put up, I'll check it out and see if I can be of any help somewhere.

In the mean time, I'll keep tracking this topic.

Michael_Denmark wrote:Maybe players like you and me, who have the benefit from our military experience don’t view the commander function as that challenging,

I agree, M exp helps a lot. I can tell even VBF2 was formulated to reward players who understand fire and manuver tactics (as opposed to chase the flag which is the way most people play).

And I think that the self-confidence would evolve better from real exercises with other participants than using training material only.

Agreed, the problem with doing "real time/world" training in game is it will be EXTREMELY boring for the non-commander participants. This is a problem I see often IRL, where large detailed training takes place, and half way through the training most of the class is off doing their own thing while one person is getting a private lesson. This must be avoided at all cost for any training program to succeed.

Ironically I feel this is also one of the secrets of being a good commander; if you keep giving orders and tasking the squads they listen to you. If you spend too much time with one squad the others wander off (usually doing stupid stuff like racing cars/bikes) and you only become aware of it when you loose the flag they were defending.

Maybe videos with stuff from the training program exercises, or maybe something else?

Absolutely. Prerequiset for the program might be to read and watch so you don't waste time "This is the commo rose.... This is how you zoom..."

Are you thinking in in-game videos from the commander screen only?

PC Anywhere is a Microsoft program that allow you to access your computer from another. Its also used by IT techs to work on your computer at work w/o having to come to your office and its used to remote train people on the computer. It gives you the ability to see and control someone else's computer. In your training program it would allow the instructor to see what the student sees, and steer them in the right direction if needed, or to demonstrate. I.E., "This is the commo rose, here's how you use it..."

I have never heard about that white board thing for BF, unless it’s that small tactical planning program, you refer too? (Can’t remember the name)

I bet its the same thing I am thinking of. It was stand alone (not part of BF2) and you could draw right on a Vanilla map, place icons, etc.,.

Here's an idea for a new training mod:

Turn off the AI so the NPC players in the game would be dumb and only do exactly what you ask them to do? Put say 16 NPC's each side. The "trainer" controls the enemy force and coaches the "trainie". The trainer side can see all players on the map (trainie only sees his players), so he can track the trainie's actions and provide feed back. In advanced training it would allow the trainer to throw some serious curve balls at the trainie.

Not as good as having players act as squads, but it would allow more one-on-one training w/o boring the other players.

nice work Gents

thx, think I’m gonna contact the dev team when a useful prototype of the training program is ready.

But there is probably a couple of versions left to be designed and discussed, before time is right.

Pls all comments/doubts/criticism is welcome.

No question is too stupid and if you don't have military experience that’s only cool, cause you might see things in a different way?

The more we can angle this stuff before final decision for a design, the better it will be for everybody.

Mike

I may have missed this point,
but when playing online, there is a major factor that will affect how your orders will be executed.
Some people call that Stress, other point-whoring.

When having a squad move around the map alot, and not confronting enemy contacts, you are taking the risk of having the Sq going haywire. Sq members will just not follow the SL, Sq coordination will be bad and then, result on the tasked command will be worst than expected.

iGi Teamwork Night #3 had this factor screw the second round for example.

Being Commander in BF2 is meaning you are playing a RTS with units that will not follow your orders or follow orders in a strange way, which HP & AP will fluctuate all along the round.

You can have all the tactical skills in the world, if you can't understand what is going on in your SLs head, you are doomed.

Orangez

Orangez wrote:I may have missed this point,
but when playing online, there is a major factor that will affect how your orders will be executed.
Some people call that Stress, other point-whoring.

When having a squad move around the map alot, and not confronting enemy contacts, you are taking the risk of having the Sq going haywire. Sq members will just not follow the SL, Sq coordination will be bad and then, result on the tasked command will be worst than expected.

iGi Teamwork Night #3 had this factor screw the second round for example.

Being Commander in BF2 is meaning you are playing a RTS with units that will not follow your orders or follow orders in a strange way, which HP & AP will fluctuate all along the round.

You can have all the tactical skills in the world, if you can't understand what is going on in your SLs head, you are doomed.

Orangez

Thx for the comment.

Being commander and trying to get things done is not always easy with a public server team.

And some of the main reasons is of course as you point out, the socalled "Rambo" factor that covers all of those situations where squad leaders or squad members conduct their own little none team-oriented private war.

Think there’s been a couple of threads about what to do about that specific problem.
Suggestions like the commander punishment tool (Kick team members), to the teamwork oriented score system and character indicators that show how good a player is in the field of teamwork.

My personally hope though, is that training programs like the squad leader or commander thing will raise the level of teamwork in the community over time. Maybe in the timeframe of a couple of patches we will begin to see everyday results on the public servers?

Since Fuzzhead started up the squad leader-training program (now with videos) the commander program began to develop and threads like “One Minute Battle Drill” and "Commander Strategies" appeared.

Now if this trend is an ongoing dynamic (and too me it seem like it is) I really believe that we have a chance to reduce the amount of those team working problems.

How much? Don’t know?


But please keep in mind that the dev team now got the focus on the commanding functions also.


So all the good is still to come.



Note: How to confront the problem in a commander-training program is something that i have thought about, and still do. Especially because i have tried the frustrations you address.

Haven't found a satisfying directly answer yet though.

But indirectly I think i have. And that is simply to get the participant used to conduct adjustments through exercises based on that particularly Rambo problem. (Team sized formational adjustments). But also getting the participant used to read the indicators of a noob (unskilled and maybe Rambo) squad and a vet squad (disciplined and in-game skilled)

Think I got the problem covered in one of the tactical lessons in V.02. (although maybe not explained very well yet)

Hmm...nope, just checked it out. It appears i got that problem divided up in two differnt lessons...thx, you just gave me something to rethink.


Anyway that’s also why I so far, in the first type of exercises I’ve made have the time factor embedded in more than one way.


Mike

Found it! Advanced Tactical Center (ATC for BF2)

http://www.foolishentertainment.com/index.asp?p=2&s=6

I've heard this tool doesn't work with PR maps by default, but there are ways to somehow implement them.

I'm currently working on a web- / browserbased tool which you can use to plan your battles. Read the thread here: http://realitymod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17759

Agreed, the problem with doing "real time/world" training in game is it will be EXTREMELY boring for the non-commander participants.

Roger that, I hear you.

I also have experienced boring tactical lessons too, but actually the opposite
as well. Mainly when competition has been used as the basic element of stimulation in a lesson.

Im working on a related idea for more less boring exercises. Will post when ready for discussion.

PC Anywhere is a Microsoft program that allow you to access your computer from another.

Not sure if i would use it my self. But then again others probably will?

Advanced Tactical Center

Roger, looks like the program i used when being in a clan. (Playing the vanilla version)

AfterDune wrote:Just want to let you know I appreciate what you're doing here, Mike.

When your questions (see above) are answered and another version is put up, I'll check it out and see if I can be of any help somewhere.

In the mean time, I'll keep tracking this topic.

Rgr.

Working on v.03 now. Maybe rdy for posting sometime next week.

AfterDune wrote:I've heard this tool doesn't work with PR maps by default, but there are ways to somehow implement them.

I'm currently working on a web- / browserbased tool which you can use to plan your battles. Read the thread here: http://realitymod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17759

Sounds like an interesting commander tool. Lets see what you bring up when rdy.
Will be a very good visual commander tool for those commanders out there who aren't that strong in English.

PC anywhere probably won't work with BF2, and I doubt many people would let you use it as it gives you full access to their PC. My point about it was some version of this for BF2 where two people could share a screen (like being in the same room student and instructor) would be usefull.

Check this out as a possible training tool

http://artpad.art.com/gallery/?undefined

Liquid_Cow wrote:PC anywhere probably won't work with BF2, and I doubt many people would let you use it as it gives you full access to their PC. My point about it was some version of this for BF2 where two people could share a screen (like being in the same room student and instructor) would be usefull.

Copy. And yes it would be useful. Absolutely.

Although i haven't explained it in the V.02 i uploaded, I have thought about an idea that in a way is kind a like the one you address. It’s connected to the last two subjects in the Battling Commander lesson, where these public battles occur.

5. Battling Commander


What you need in order to participate.
Advanced Tactical Commander

Lessons:
5 – 10 lessons

Time:
? minutes minus the time to plan and the time to battle.

Participants:
Minimum 2 participants and 1 instructor

Content:

· Designing and/or adjusting the war plan. Basic planning principles and introduction to the concept of phase planning. X exercises. (?m)

· Using the war plan. Describing principles of how to use the plan in a project reality environment and the necessarity to be ahead of the battle. X exercises. (?m)

· Commander battles. Full sized team battles (32/32) with players from the project reality community. X exercises. (?m)

· Battle reports, evaluations, constructive criticism and debate. What type/s of commander are you? X exercises. (?m)

A possibility was and still is (so far :mrgreen that the instructor could go on team speak with both battling commanders in a live round on a public server and try to help them out with their difficulties. And only based upon their information to the instructor since the instructor wouldn’t be participating on the server it self.


Case example:
After an unexpected and intense urban meeting engagement, involving squad sized+ forces, both commanders are having doubts about if they should let this engagement develop into a main battle situation or if they should retreat and reorganize?
Involved squad leaders from both teams are full of confidence and request both reinforcements and processing battle resources.

Should the commanders try to control the situation by not letting this engagement evolve any further or let this unexpected situation influence their upcoming decisions? Is this fight worth the tickets when compared to the rest of their individual phase plans? How many tickets will a retreat cost at the most?...and so on?

And both commanders want the instructors opinion if to initiate their individual preplaned retreat scenario from their phase planning. (As they learned about in the beginning of lesson 5, V.02 program)

Then after the round the instructor hopefully has the necessary amount of information from the battle to identify some of the issues to be debated. (only the instructor has a copy of each battleplan in front of him/her - so he/her can follow the situation and any adjustment to the plans being used)
And with the help of a video footage from the battle (think its called the fraps system?) it will be kind a like your idea. Then everybody in the debate can ask, why did you order a squad out there (pos A) instead of there (pos B)?
---

Note 1: During a round and the evaluation the instructor needs to be 100% neutral.

Note 2: this kind of exercises will train the participants ability to think in three, in phase planning and in problem descriiption, not only to the instructor but also in a funny way to them selfs. And hopefully they will get better to describe stuff to squad leaders from training like this.

hey, i have a question.

when i enter on the real-time zoom (when u see the people fighting and thisngs like that) how can i spot enemys from this position?

noir-colombia- wrote:hey, i have a question.

when i enter on the real-time zoom (when u see the people fighting and thisngs like that) how can i spot enemys from this position?

The answer is simple: you can't . If you spot some enemies, tell a squad leader in what sector you spotted him. That's the only way.

Good luck!

You can also issue an "Attack Here" order, but it does not move with the target, so you'll need to keep an eye on whats happenin to make sure things don't go badly.

ok thanks for the answer.

by the way ...great post and thanks again

AfterDune wrote:Picture this;
The better commanders (and SL's) are, the heavier the fighting will be, the more tactics we have to use, the more realism, the more fun!

So I ask you, how can we train our commanding skills? I, for example, like to be commander every once in a while (because of the lack of order, sometimes), but I don't think I'm too good at it. I can coordinate a little and help getting the SL's to ask for supplies and arty, but I need training to become good (read: better) at it. Some training would be nice. Something like Fuzzhead's Squad Training .

Any suggestions about this?

Frankly, without artillery, there's scarcely any reason to be commander.

What I would like to see on the commanders' map is the correct sequence of flags that have to be seized.