Project Reality Forums

I think it is a good idea. It will teach people to stop wasting ammo and to look for resupply from team mates

swapping kits eh ?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8bf_1182071062

ArmedDrunk&Angry wrote:swapping kits eh ?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8bf_1182071062

hmm, now I want to be able to steal kebab from the mec guy who I just killed.

ArmedDrunk&Angry wrote:This is my rifle.
There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My rifle is my best friend.
It is my life.
I must master it as I must master my life.
My rifle, without me, is useless.
Without my rifle, I am useless.
I must fire my rifle true.
I must shoot straighter than my enemy,
who is trying to kill me.
I must shoot him before he shoots me.
I will.

My rifle and myself know that what counts in war,
is not the rounds of fire,
the noise of our burst,
nor the smoke we make.
We know it is the hits that count.
We will hit.

My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life.
Thus, I will learn it as a brother.
I will learn its weaknesses,
its strengths,
its parts,
its accessories,
its sights and its barrel.
I will ever guard it against
the ravages of weather and damage.
I will keep my rifle clean and ready,
even as I am clean and ready.
We will become part of each other.
We will.

Before God I swear this creed.
My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country.
We are the masters of our enemy.
We are the saviors of my life.
So be it, until there is no enemy,
but Peace.

damn you beat me

'[R-PUB wrote:MrD']We've got a whole chain of events here that you need to think about very carefully. Because the next few things I'm going to ask you imagine in your mind are about spacial awarenes, length of objects and seating areas.

The shoulder area (muscle and fat distribution) where the butt of the rifle (the L85A2 has several different sized stocks available, never used them personally though) when you place the butt in that "comfortable spot" there are bound to be a certain number of sizes amongst the armies 120,000 fighting troops.

Next the handgrip and trigger position will be a different distance away from the body due to that seating position on the shoulder with reference to the line going down through your head/spine/chest. Your arm will be bent to a comfortable position to fit this distance and not put your wrist at an uncomfortable angle allowing for steady and firm pressing of the trigger to reduce any trigger pulling shake that will throw off your aim.

Then the size of your hand and how you grasp the handgrip, the preferred holding angle that is comfortable for your wrist and hand. These are different because people have different shaped and sized hands, different comfortable wrist rotation.

Next we have the fact that you are now going to move your head to the rear of the SUSAT. The SUSAT can be pushed backwards and forwards somewhat on its rails. You bend your head to place your eye in a comfortable position and match the sight to that.

With moving your head to the comfortable position we now have to take other factors into account. The length of neck, the height of face to the eye . The width of eyes and width of face too.

Now bear in mind that the SUSAT is a single reticule, there is no ironsights in operation here where you line up rear and foresights. This should explain fully how any scoped weapon with a single reticule is going to be pretty innacurate in another persons hands, no matter how well trained he is as at this point, the reticule might be on a "target" when you fire, but the barrel might not be facing the target at all!!! A difference of simply one degree and you are missing everything over 100m.


The first time I was issued with a rifle, well before I was hitting the ranges with it we carried it round everywhere, slept with it when out on exercise. We practised putting the rifle into our shoulder, rising the rifle to aiming position and having a "dry" firing of it to check for shake. It was only once we were completely comfortable with our personal weapons handling that we hit the ranges and zeroed in our rifles with help from a spotter and our toolkits out to adjust the SUSAT position.

You say that you can look through the SUSAT in different angles?
The optics that I know don't let you use different angles. You would get a partial or full black sight.
It's all about the zeroing. When it's point zeroed, everyone could shoot with it. But this takes time and many shots. Lots of rifles are only partial zeroid so that the shots don't get somewhere but need a individual little hold point to shoot accurate.

Bubba you may be 6" taller than I am and that will make the sight or scope show a different point because you will be holding my weapon differently.
I do think you can pick up another persons weapon, fire a few rounds and find the zero on that weapon but that would depend on your weapon handling skills and your experience.
A 15yo in Basra will not have the same chance to find a strange weapons zero as a SAS soldier with 15 years experience.

ArmedDrunk&Angry wrote:Bubba you may be 6" taller than I am and that will make the sight or scope show a different point because you will be holding my weapon differently.

Why should that make any difference?
Do you have a other hold point when you get from standing to kneel?

ArmedDrunk&Angry wrote:I do think you can pick up another persons weapon, fire a few rounds and find the zero on that weapon but that would depend on your weapon handling skills and your experience.
A 15yo in Basra will not have the same chance to find a strange weapons zero as a SAS soldier with 15 years experience.

What do you wan't to say?
I never said that everyone could use a none point zeroed weapon.

I think that on a smooth range you might be able to find out where your rounds are going and you could then try and remember that each shot you fire looking down the scope from then on (in the same holding position)you had to fire, for example, to the lower left of the target to hit it in the same place your own rifle would.

But off a range, firing in the heat of battle, are you sure you are going to see where your round strikes, let alone have the wherewithal to slot that in your memory, work out where you should be firing in future and remember every single time that is where you should be aiming instead?

Modern rifles have scopes and they become individual weapons as a result.

This problem doesn't occur with ironsight rifles though, except where unusual stocks are used My air rifle tucked in a cupboard and gathering dust was too long for me. It didn't have stock extensions of any kind so as a trained joiner I knew how to deal with the wood stock, cutting off a section and curving it to fit my shoulder then sanding it for a nice fit and varnishing it. The scope is extremely slimline and other people trying to use it complain they can't hold it right and see the reticule properly and get the target in sight. The SUSAT is a huge device really, you can see the reticule from too great a deviance angle and people using someone elses SUSAT equipped rifle will 'think' they can shoot fine with it, but the angle of deviation due to rifle fit as a result of the technical side of fitting allows a large deviation issue.

I think this idea is pointless. It is WAY to complicated and unrealistic in some cases. For example, when a marine picks up an AK47. And who's to say that insurgans have never fired off high end weapons?

Not to mention, it isnt all that complicated to bring your stock up to your shoulder, look down the sights and shoot. Yea he wont have that fine tuned training down. But it doesnt take a genius to shoot a .50 cal sniper rifle.

First I am not trying to trump anyones knowledge here and MrD you have given me a good deal of insite into this topic.

I have used a variety of firearms and was fairly accurate with them. My experience is limited to 100yds approx and mostly with iron sights. MrD I believe is bang on with the optics argurment. I haven't used optics except for a few occasions, I used iron sights for the rest. With a little bit of time I was able to get comfortable with the different rifles. The basic principles of shooting (as I know them) allowed me to hit a man sized target at 100yds while shooting off-hand and iron sights. Now I have never shot at ranges past 100yds in combat so I can't really comment on that. My point is that with iron sights someone with some firearm experience could adjust to a new rifle to deal with threats at close range (100m) past that I don't have enough knowledge to comment.

I think the argument here is too complex to implement properly in game. For the most part a soldier wouldn't be picking up another rifle IRL. It happens but not on mass like it can in PR. A trained soldier however would probably be able to adjust to a picked up rifle if needed. Where an insurgent with no formal training might struggle. There could of course be a seasoned veteran insurgent who would adjust quickly. I could go on but I think there are so many variables here ontop of the optics issues already stated that a big paint brush approach would overlook some aspects. I really don't have a good suggestion on how to change things to make it realistic. If you don't allow picking up enemy kits that would not be realistic for the insurgents.

We should still allow picking up and using of other teams weapons.

The distraction/diversion fire of one firing can confuse an enemy and maybe stop them firing on a hidden soldier with their teams weapon.

On Bi Minge I've found frequently that ambushing enemy as they go by from the rear with their own teams weapon frequently lets me wiped out whole squads, they don't look around thinking it is one of their squad firing past them

It is probably hard coded, but if it wasn't, changing your deviation midgame to that of insurgents deviation when picking up and using an enemy weapon would be good.


As a side note, over in the hotzones, insurgent commanders have been reported to have been telling their soldiers on the ground to only attack brit and US convoys within a 50m radius as they appreciate the low accuracy and low training of their troops handling those weapons and know they will lose every single time with limited or no allied casualties outside this range.

My brother has reported in the second gulf war that he's been stood up beside his landie and had iraqi troops stood up firing their AK's at 400m from him and the rounds weren't coming anywhere near him. With our SA80 series rifles being zeroed in at that 400m range, you can see how it becomes a one sided fight!

Don't the Coalition forces in Iraq use a lot of AKs?

'[R-PUB wrote:MrD']

As a side note, over in the hotzones, insurgent commanders have been reported to have been telling their soldiers on the ground to only attack brit and US convoys within a 50m radius as they appreciate the low accuracy and low training of their troops handling those weapons and know they will lose every single time with limited or no allied casualties outside this range.

My brother has reported in the second gulf war that he's been stood up beside his landie and had iraqi troops stood up firing their AK's at 400m from him and the rounds weren't coming anywhere near him. With our SA80 series rifles being zeroed in at that 400m range, you can see how it becomes a one sided fight!

400m with an AK!? 400m without any optics would be difficult enough let alone using an AK-47. I can appreciate the limited ranges needed for a succesfull attack. Even at close range you can have trouble hitting things if your under fire. I have seen a video of two guys in a store shooting handguns at each other from either side of a counter. No one was hit

Handguns require so much skill and training to hit things that they become useless in the wrong peoples hands.

In a street where I lived before, two gangs drove cars at each other, got out at 30m range and all started firing pistols. The only person to get hit was a teenage girl in a second storey window to one side of the street who was hit in the head and died.

I've fired Browning 9mmHP on the ranges at 30m and could only hit a full sized target 2/8 times. Our marksman trained supervisor could only hit it 4/10 and he owned a customised Browning and attended competition shoots. It ain't like Hollywood, you really need to be in the same room as someone to hit them, outdoors it's a bit vague! Pistols are a CQB weapon and a last resort!


Stood up with an L85 with it resting on something, a stationary target at 400m is possible. Take your time, breathe properly and firmly pull the trigger and you should hit what you are aiming at. Stood up without a rest and 100m max really. Prone position and 400m is easy.

The first time I fired the Browning I had the recoil swish it past my head almost hitting my ear

Then I have big hands and ended up with a V shaped gouge between thumb and finger where the hammer had kept hitting. I had blood running all down onto my forearm, haha.

yeah pistols ain't that good at long ranges. I've only shot with a pistol from something like 15m, and even then I really had to aim if I wanted to hit a 1m x 0.5m target. I can get 7/7 into the target if I take my time, but that's just from 15m. Double the distance and I'd probably get like 1 or 2 into the target.

And I'm not really that good with rifles either, 7.62mm hunting rifle (with 2x scope) and I can hit the same target (1m x 0.5m) maybe 2 or 3 out of 5. That's while standing up without any kind of support. Never tried shooting from the prone position, but I'll have to do that sometime.

So yeah, probably something like 50m would be the max accurate range for someone who doesn't have too much experience with weapons.