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BuMp..

Any further opinions on this topic? Or are we all out? Any developers got any comments?

I say go for BF2 esque physics modified so helis arn't so nimble, and touch up the whole throttle thing.

of course, the biggest fix would be to make it so we dont have attack helis shooting at each other in midair ballets as is such that happens in retard balanced bf2, where every vehicle is ballanced by its clone on the other side.

Figisaacnewton wrote:I say go for BF2 esque physics modified so helis arn't so nimble, and touch up the whole throttle thing.

of course, the biggest fix would be to make it so we dont have attack helis shooting at each other in midair ballets as is such that happens in retard balanced bf2, where every vehicle is ballanced by its clone on the other side.

Yea. Agreed. Its like chopper boxing matches...Rather ignorant if ya ask me. Not realistic in any way shape or form...

GRB wrote:Each chopper has two engines. Each engine has a POWER lever. Full power means each lever for both engines all the way up. The blades spin at a high enough speed at full power to generate enough lift to keep an airborn helo in the air, but not lift it off the ground. Then you have a third lever which controls the rotor TORQUE. Increase the torque on the blades and vuola, you have lift and you can leave the ground or tilt forward and go very fast.

The less power comming from the engines, the less torque that can be applied to the blades. At full power, torque is the main "throttle", if you will, for increasing and decreasing speed and altitude.

So it's kinda like the clutch in a manual car? As in, going full throttle, and adjusting the clutch to adjust the torque applied to the wheels.

I think the lessons to be learned here are to produce realistic chopper flight characteristics. This means momentum, weight and inertia. DC got much of this right, but failed in the reality of how choppers fly.

I recall one person testing out the choppers in Microsoft Flight Simulator. He applied an attack chopper add-in and put it on minimum simulation mode. He said it handled more like the BF2 choppers, with much control taken away from the pilot. He then cranked it up to maximum. He said DC was at around 75% simulation mode. Lots of control and constant work to keep it in the air.

For those who don't think choppers are not so nimble that they can't do fast turns and loops, think again. I have seen at an air show, almost 20 years ago now, how a little chopper flew upside down 150 feet from the deck for much of the length of the runway.

Good luck creating fun and realistic chopper flight characteristics.

toast wrote:I think the lessons to be learned here are to produce realistic chopper flight characteristics. This means momentum, weight and inertia. DC got much of this right, but failed in the reality of how choppers fly.

I recall one person testing out the choppers in Microsoft Flight Simulator. He applied an attack chopper add-in and put it on minimum simulation mode. He said it handled more like the BF2 choppers, with much control taken away from the pilot. He then cranked it up to maximum. He said DC was at around 75% simulation mode. Lots of control and constant work to keep it in the air.

For those who don't think choppers are not so nimble that they can't do fast turns and loops, think again. I have seen at an air show, almost 20 years ago now, how a little chopper flew upside down 150 feet from the deck for much of the length of the runway.

Good luck creating fun and realistic chopper flight characteristics.

If you're talking about physics, dude, that is PHYSICALLY impossible.

In order for a helo to do that, it would have to stop its rotors, then have them start going the other direction....By the time the rotors stopped and started up again, Heh, the chopper is already on the ground in a pile of mashed metal...

"So it's kinda like the clutch in a manual car? As in, going full throttle, and adjusting the clutch to adjust the torque applied to the wheels."

Not really. If you want to compare it to a car. Look at it this way, we will use an automatic transmission for this:

You turn the engine on. Instantly it the engine is at "full power" simply while its idling ok? (given the fact that in a car you cannot adjust how much power the engine idles at, well, technically you can, but we wont..) In the helicopter when you turn the engines on, you must slowly bring the engine levers up to full-open, or "full power"..Thats the equivilant of turning your car on...

Now, when you apply throttle to the cars engine, it produces torque. Hittin the gas on your car would be the equivilant of moving the torque lever up on a helicopter.

Its a very odd analogy, but thats the best way to compare it to a car..lol.

GRB, I am quite annoyed actually at the amount of false information you have led these people to believe in a further effort to make yourself out to be someone important.

From what I've read, you seem to be another wannabe.

I will start of from the beginning;

EA has a quotia to meet, if too many people are pissed off about how everything takes time and effort to fly, then it really isn't going to get the action packed sterotype it was after, but rather a learning curve. Remember, not all BF2 players are seasoned Desert Combat players, this is the first time. And naturally, they have accepepted this for what the game is.

For those DC players making the transition, they have come from a world where it took skill to fly a chopper, skill that ment that people came back for this. Now, this skill has been replaced by the point system, choosing to consume gamers in an effort to play as much as they possibly can.

Now to clean up after GRB's mess.

The way they are now is great because they do descend a little while hovering so its not like insta-hover. But even so, the inst-hover is more realistic than the DC configuration. IRL a choppers throttle is called the collective. Basically because its a lever and thats how it works, collectively. If you put it at 75%, it stays at 75% until you move the lever.

No it's not more realistic than the DC configuration. If you had anything to do with the real thing you would know that. IN REAL LIFE, a choppers throttle is called a throttle, the collective and the throttle are two different things. Hmm, what do both control I wonder? Unless ofcourse you're speaking about a helicopter fitted with a governer, what does a governor do again?

So basically how the choppers are simulated now is an assumption that any normal pilot would tell you is pretty realistic. Basically just suggesting that when ever you let off the torque, you simply bringing the lever back down to around 50% for a hover.

No, it's not realistic. I can see some little quirks of how the real things handle, but it has been dumbed down so much it's hazy on to what they were actually going for. A helicopter will not just hover if you bleed the power off, it will start descending. There needs to be an equal force in the opposite direction for this to happen. "Quick stop, quick stop" A flare in other words.

As a matter of fact there was absolutely nothing realistic about the DC helos..

Blooody hell! That's a bit steep?

The only way to get a helo to drop out of the sky like that would be to reduce the engine power. Reducing engine power is usually not something a pilot would want to do because its dangerous and could render the helo unrecoverable if it was to start tilting too far.

No, you will never, ever reduce engine power if you're not entering Auto-rotation. You wanna stall the engine?

Also, in real life, these helicopters are not as "nimble" as you think. A lot of the manuvers I've pulled off with the BlackHawk, i dont think the BH is even capable of. I think in real life most of the manuvers ive pulled off would have stressed the hydraulics to the point of complete failure as well as twisted some of the aircrafts frame, resulting in a completely non-flyable helicopter, which would act like a DC chopper and fall from the sky like a rock...Lets just be happy we cant have it THAT realistic. Because if it was, then a lot of you would probably not like realism any more..lol.

No, you wouldn't know what ANY helicopter is capable of.




I'm way too lazy to reply to the rest of your garbage, except this one;

In order for a helo to do that, it would have to stop its rotors, then have them start going the other direction....By the time the rotors stopped and started up again, Heh, the chopper is already on the ground in a pile of mashed metal...

I had a good laugh. Rotors in the opposite direction? Wow.

I really dont appreciate this personal criticism. Was it neccissary to get your point accross? No way man. You could have simply stated what it was you thought was wrong and why...

Not once in that critique of my postings have i seen you mention any theory as to how a helicopter actually works.

So, lets do this, explain to us how you think a helicopters throttling system works. Then ill copy and paste where i read my information from and we will compare...

As far as the helicopter goin upside down. I never said it wasnt possible. But for this to happen: "almost 20 years ago now, how a little chopper flew upside down 150 feet from the deck for much of the length of the runway."

THAT is impossible. A helicopter cannot sustain upside down flight for the length of a runway. A loop is possible. A berrel roll is possible. But all of these manuvers can ONLY be done in helicopters designed to do so.

Man what is with the hostility??????

"a choppers throttle is called a throttle, the collective and the throttle are two different things"

Ill give ya that much. Youre absolutely right. But when i said the throttle is called the collective, that was a typo, i didnt mean thats what the throttle was called. I meant the throttle is called the Thrust. Its a collective type...Not an on or off switch like DCs setup..

"I had a good laugh. Rotors in the opposite direction? Wow. "

You actually thought i meant that the rotors can go in the other direction???? Wow man...Talk about being narrow minded.

Greetings all, first post, here goes..

Im enjoying reading these discussions about helicopters and after 3 pages HAD to join in.
I'd like to start by saying; Easy guys. Its OK, lets keep this relaxed haha. I think we all want to learn. OK, now for the tech part;

Concerning the technicalities of a real helicopter, In ALL helis there are separate controls for engine speed and blade pitch. In older helis these were controled separately, if you increased the pitch of the blades you would have to also increase the torque of the engine, this is because as you request more lift from the blades (by increasing pitch) you also increase the drag on the blades which requires more power (torque) from the engine to maintain a constant rotor speed. In modern helis (mostly turbine engined) automated fuel control systems compensate for the increased torque demand and adjust the throttle automaticaly. After starting the engine, the throttle is set at 100% (rpm) and left alone with the exception of emergencies or abnormal flight conditions. Engine speed and blade speed fluctuate very little in flight only about 2-3% up or down. If the blade speed drops below a critical rpm (differs between aircraft, about 80% for example) it can become irrecoverable and the blades will stall completly and the aircraft will drop out of the sky like a nice shiny, streamlined house-brick.
I doubt anyone is still reading this far down but i will also add that the reason a collective lever is callled 'collective' is because it changes the pitch of the blades equally at the same time or 'collectively'. As regards the realism of BF2 heli controls...well..... i think the devs have done a good job of compomising on the heli flying - not to hard (for noobs) but challenging enough to be fun. I think this is the whole point though, flying a real helicopter takes both feet and both hands and ALL of your brain, i dont think you can reproduce that on a keyboard and mouse and still have fun!
A final note; the only things that annoy me personaly about the helis in BF2 are 1.real helis are FAR more sensitive to pedal inputs and 2.if you bottom the collective in a real heli (fast) you will hit your head on the roof! with the collective all the way down the blades are flat pitch (not making any lift at all) so its like cutting the string holding the thing in the air! it drops. As the decent increases other aerodynamic effects take place that slow this a little(next post if requested haha) but a decent of 2000ft/min is not uncommon to see.
Thanks to those who read this whole thing, happy to expand on any point if asked. Cheers.

*thumps his head* Guestimating here. Now to fly a helicopter upside down, you get some good speed at a solid positive rate of climb, then roll the helicopter on its back while killing the collective, and basically lob yourself through the air like a cannonball; no lift at all, just a projectile on a parabola until you start dropping and roll the helo back to its belly and ramp the collective, right? Or you could just adjust the collective mechanisms to go into a negative angle of attack instead of flattening out at null...

Erm, how is this done exactly?

You got it right. The thing to understand about heli's is that they cannot perform NEGATIVE G manuvers. So, its necessary to maintain positve G loading throughout the roll or loop. Any rolls you see being done in a heli are barrel rolls, a barrel roll doesnt spin the aircraft around its axis only, its like skate boarding around the inside of a barrel (whilst still going forward obviously otherwise it becomes a loop) so as to maintain positive G. You are correct about bottoming the collective at the top of the roll/loop though. you will probably notice that a helicopter performing these kinds of manuvers is at suitably high altitude. when the thing is inverted its not really 'flying' anymore

yup. And only certain choppers can do it. the Huey's and Cobra's can't cause the blades just pivot on the mast. You try to bring that sucker upside down and the blades would be bouncing so hard aginst the mast that it'd snap the sucker in 1/2.

I think that's the reason.

Yeah.


I think.

Doesnt what you said seem to resemble a lot of what i had said? lol..Thanks for the back up man!

Well i like the way the choppers fly in BF2 not because it easy but because i have just got to used to it and can now do some insane things. I couldn't cope with change ??:

What I would like to know is, why is everyone obssesed with helicopters going upsidedown!? Its unnatural damit! hahahahaha
Thats what planes are for, why isnt everyone intertested in "Can an F16 land on top of a building?" Well...my buddy said that he saw this..........

The F15 might as well be a helicopter in that game you can switch from after burning to hovering in seconds it makes for some great laughs when imagining the look on peoples faces when and F15 hovers in killing everything on the ground with its machine gun and bombs, and then if someone gets into a SAM who cares go afterburner and your outta there! Damned unrealistic but fun.

That sort of gameplay would be better suited to a sci-fi setting wouldnt it? something where supersonic hover-cabable machines exist (before I get flamed, I know there are supersonic VTOL aircraft, but you dont use the VTOL capabilities in a combat engagement) I know its fun but it detracts a bit from the realism, although maybe BF2 is a bad place to start of realilsm is what you are after haha. Personaly i dont fly the jets in BF2, when I get the 'need for speed' I prefer a deicated flight sim, sooooo much better (and enjoyable). BF2 helis on the other hand, not too bad considering they have to be made flyable by EVERYONE. Actualy, I think a great way to cut down on Noobs and Whores in BF2 choppers would be a separate pilot class. So you spawn as a pilot, with a knife and a pistol (maybe a small SMG for chopper pilots) but you cant fly an aircraft unless you are a pilot. Would make peolpe take it more seriously, also stop dicks from taking the aircraft as personal transport ie; fly to the action and bail out, leaving the actual pilots to have to wait for a respawn. What do you think people?

Minigunmonk is dead on. In everything actually. It would be awesome to add a pilot class to cut down on people taking off with the BH or LB to find a good place to snipe from.

That's a huge problem in this game. (Not so bad with PRMM though, which is good of course)

Off Topic..

Then again...This whole thread is kind of like, shredded... :d uh:

GRB wrote: Off Topic..

Then again...This whole thread is kind of like, shredded... :d uh:

Thank you, forum commando.

...

I disagree with the option of having a pilot class. You're better off having such classes as kits that can be picked up. It would make sure that there aren't more pilots than there are planes.