Project Reality Forums

geogob wrote:
Also, I like the idea suggest here. Hacks can do so many things with the engine using various kind of hooks. If something is hardcoded, why not bypass it with "legitimate" hack that's part of the mod?

Exactly. It's separate from vBF, so EA will say "whatever, as long as you don't use it on a ranked vBF server". And, if its dev-endorsed, it should be fine.

Maybe im wrong, but IR =/= Thermal if I recall

causticbeat wrote:Maybe im wrong, but IR =/= Thermal if I recall

This is not entirely correct, but not totally false. Let me explain (sorry, long - I really feel like posting long **** tonight ).

IR refers to Infrared; Infrared light is the light in wavelengths (colors if your prefer) outside of the visible spectrum, at lower energies. Basically (and very simplified, from lower energy to higher energy:

Radio waves - Microwaves - Infrared light - Visible light - Ultra Violet Light - X Rays - Gamma ray

Actually, here's a picture:



The idea is that any object emits radiation. The more energy the object has, the hotter it is, the more radiation it will emit and higher the energy of that radiation will be (hence shorter wavelengths). That's plank law cut short with round corners.

So, anything that's hot (i.e. not at 0 Kelvin [-273°C]) will emit radiation. Under about 700°C the radiation emitted is mostly in the Infrared. At higher temperature, you'll start seeing visible light. For example, a light bulb (very hot) will emit heat, but also visible light.

An Infrared camera allows you to see light in the infrared spectrum... but that spectrum is very long. It is split in two categorie : Long wave IR (far IR) and shot wave IR (near IR); Near and far as in near or far from the visible spectrum. A camera sensible in the near IR will only see clearly very hot heat sources, source probably hot enough to be visible. This band is not usually used for what we call thermal imaging because colder objects emit almost no light in that region. The region were you can clearly see a difference between objects objects having different temperatures near the normal room temperature is situated in the Far IR. This region is also called the thermal IR because it is often used to measure temperature and used to monitor heat sources and identify hot spots in fires.

In night vision system, what we usually call IR system are system in the near IR and are usually coupled with light amplification systems and illumination systems (most likely at wavelengths around 800 nm, same wavelength as a TV remote). Thermal night vision system are usually around 10-12 um (micrometer) wavelengths.

So while both system are Infrared (IR) systems, we generally use the name "thermal" to specifically point to the long wave IR (far IR).

Here are a few typical shots in near IR:





And here are a few typical shots of far (thermal) IR:




The last one is nice... You can see how the cold-blooded lizard warms up in the sunlight.

Bonus:

TF6049 wrote:Exactly. It's separate from vBF, so EA will say "whatever, as long as you don't use it on a ranked vBF server". And, if its dev-endorsed, it should be fine.

For MS flight simulator, i've been flying on very realistic models. The simulation (incl. flight dynamic) is almost totally working on external .dll that come with the aircraft model (a commercial addon you need to buy). I've never seen a mod in other games do that: use external program to run things like ballistic calculations. I've also never seen a mod using a hook officially to bypass engine limitations.

Although this would be very interesting and ingenious, it is most likely forbidden by the original game EULA, allowing only modification to the extend the game developers wanted.

I recall seeing some nightvision thing in the 0.6 promo video?

Yeah, thats more or less what i was getting at. Im a photographer so I know all about IR film. Being that it captures a bit of heat, but its nowhere near super thermal splinter cell view. I appreciate the little science lesson though

Under my impression the millitary use of IR is of "near" IR correct? Where with a helocopter or goggles or whatever they are essentially shining an IR flashlight on the target.

IR photography is fairly beautiful, and when i pick up all my new gear for school, a hoya filter is definitely in store.

Nice photo! I should try out IR film. I've been doing photography for years now, but never used IR sensitive film. How do you develop it? Does it required any special darkroom process or only the usual ones? I'm only starting to get my darkroom ready for color processing, so I should check that all out at the same time.

As for the science lesson, I could go on forever - design IR system for military and aerospace applications is basically what I do for my rent.

Most military systems I've seen work in near and mid IR (mostly InSb and InGaAs CCDs). There are quite a few technical reasons not to go into thermal IR. Detector cooling is one, optics another (there are very few type of "glasses" that can be used to make IR lenses that work with thermal IR wavelenghts - most of them are very expensive, fragile or water soluble). Cost goes up fairly quickly when you go closer to thermal IR. That one reason it's mostly used only on FLIR pods for helicopters and aircrafts. With cooling being an issue, the devices tend to be a bit large to be used as NV goggles as well.

Elcan makes a thermal rifle scope and thermal binoculars. I guess I could find out again that cheesy promotional video they had!

what about the attack chopper tv missiles cam that looks like near IR, how is that done :

'[R-DEV wrote:Jaymz']Vaiski, you know those hacks that n00bs use to show every player on the map as bright red/blue? Perhaps a tweaked version of that would work.

tut tut, thats wat i told u a couple of months back 1 of the reasons u got me into to testin, but i never posted it cos we were to busy with .6 testin

thief

geogob wrote:Nice photo! I should try out IR film. I've been doing photography for years now, but never used IR sensitive film. How do you develop it? Does it required any special darkroom process or only the usual ones? I'm only starting to get my darkroom ready for color processing, so I should check that all out at the same time.

As for the science lesson, I could go on forever - design IR system for military and aerospace applications is basically what I do for my rent.

Most military systems I've seen work in near and mid IR (mostly InSb and InGaAs CCDs). There are quite a few technical reasons not to go into thermal IR. Detector cooling is one, optics another (there are very few type of "glasses" that can be used to make IR lenses that work with thermal IR wavelenghts - most of them are very expensive, fragile or water soluble). Cost goes up fairly quickly when you go closer to thermal IR. That one reason it's mostly used only on FLIR pods for helicopters and aircrafts. With cooling being an issue, the devices tend to be a bit large to be used as NV goggles as well.

Elcan makes a thermal rifle scope and thermal binoculars. I guess I could find out again that cheesy promotional video they had!

to be honest, IR film is a ***** to use and its much easier just to do it digitally. But props to you for putting the time into your own color dark room. I have a black and white one but there is certainly a bit more of a process to set up a color one. Im drooling over when I go to school next year and it is all personal color darkrooms and light tables and everything a photogeek could want galore. http://www.nesop.com

geogob wrote:Just a note... IRL, thermal imaging doesn't allow you to see people through walls. It helps to clearly identify a vehicle or a person in front a colder background, but not through objects. Even through many type of reinforced glass you won't see them.

If you want to see some examples of RL Thermal IR imaging, I could post a few or even make some.

It would be a nightmare to code Thermal imaging in an engine not designed for it. Modeling the limited dynamic range (meaning you'd have to readjust the gain all the time and you'll get blinded by heat sources) is rather complicated

True. IR works by using a frequency range. Large particals tend to cause issues, ie) sand storms.

This is because the thermal signature given from whatever you are looking at is received by the IR viewer, does it's fancy things, and you see the heat source, shape etc of whatever you are looking at (not going into it, as it may be a security issue).

The viewer cannot pick up the thermal (EMR) signature through a sandstorm (depending on severity of storm and distance) because the particals of sand deflect the EMR rays from the viewer, therefore making you see FA.

Bit of a **** explanation, but I am not confident I can cover the full aspects in proper dialogue in an open forum. The only Thermal IR system I am fully conversant with is the British Javelin MRATGW, so weary of what can/cannot be covered, as it's improved on the original US system.

Gaz is their anyway you can perhaps get a picture of the Thermal sight on the Javelin. I was at a Army trip with school to Catrick base and i was shown 2 types one on a stand that showed people as like red wavy things then the second was a pair of IR bino's which were brilliant i was told they could tell weather you were male or female due to the different body parts and if you were Armed or not i think he said something about them not working if you looked at glass?

Play America's Army roobo. The system's used in it as a training mission. Although using the Indoor Trainer, you do a firing exercise etc, which is quite cool, even though the specs and capabilities of the US system are slightly less than the British adaptation, the basic mechanisms are the same.

I cannot find a publically available rl image of the CLU visual on Night (thermal) setting, so cannot post any restricted images from official docs.

Here's an AA image lol, but it shows the green basic thermal visial representation quite well.

Ah ok dont want to get Mi5 on our asses ,

What are the specs and capabilities that make the British Javelin better than the American counterpart?

You don't really want the javelin in game. To say it would make tanks worthless is a bit of an understatement. Guaranteed hit on a moving target, fire and forget, 1 hit kill (top down attack mode), yeah.

There's a good example. The CLU costs over 125000$. That's the price tag for Thermal Imaging in military applications.

I think you could have the Javelin in the game, but not as a kit. Like a pickup that spawns once per 30 minutes. Or have one or two at main base and that's it. No resupply.

A good tool to use when you're screwed.

They had the Javelin in Joint Ops and it was so satisfying to use on some tank harassing you

I would say if the javelin is brought in we need to keep the numbers low and replace the Heavy AT with it. We don't want to swing the power back to the infantry vs. the tanks.

WNxKenwayy wrote:You don't really want the javelin in game. To say it would make tanks worthless is a bit of an understatement. Guaranteed hit on a moving target, fire and forget, 1 hit kill (top down attack mode), yeah.

far from guaranteed tbh. Once fired, the missile can be forgotten about, however there's quite a few considerations that need to be assessed before the gunner fires the missile with maximum chance of the missile hitting the target.

Likes of;

Vehicle moving to cover? Can I engage precisely, choosing correct type of attack (top, direct) fire the missile and account for expected missile flight time before the bugger gets to cover. Moving into area of hard cover with top cover? Moving through an area with poor thermal picture and high thermal clutter (urban with burning cars etc - absolute ******* to achieve full lock)?

Direct attack requires LOS, and top attack does to engage. The fact that the missile goes up to 150m in height, means that once the target is locked on and fired, and at the 150m normal flight ceiling, it'll have a better 'lock' on the target as it'll prob 'see' over any obstacle that's blocking LOS and therefore a Direct attack.

Lots of good stuff like that.

Here's a video of the Isreali adaptation (or what it looks like the Isreali adaptation anyway) of the Javelin, made by Raphael.

Very similar features. Shows deployment, use and day/thermal sights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpJZKrSACoA

like any military marketing video, quite cheesy.

Maybe you could have it as emplacements on some bases.

Ok, back on topic please.

However, just like night vision is used, you could texture everything so that it would look good in IR. For example, you could make a civvie's texture orange an yellow and the road's texture blue. Then, you can't use it to see through walls unless they have no texture.

So give see-through walls empty texture files or give them none at all.

Yes, it would be a big piece of work, but I think PR could do it.

Yes = |corrugated aluminum|
No = |wall|

'[R-DEV wrote:Gaz']far from guaranteed tbh. Once fired, the missile can be forgotten about, however there's quite a few considerations that need to be assessed before the gunner fires the missile with maximum chance of the missile hitting the target.

Likes of;

Vehicle moving to cover? Can I engage precisely, choosing correct type of attack (top, direct) fire the missile and account for expected missile flight time before the bugger gets to cover. Moving into area of hard cover with top cover? Moving through an area with poor thermal picture and high thermal clutter (urban with burning cars etc - absolute ******* to achieve full lock)?

Direct attack requires LOS, and top attack does to engage. The fact that the missile goes up to 150m in height, means that once the target is locked on and fired, and at the 150m normal flight ceiling, it'll have a better 'lock' on the target as it'll prob 'see' over any obstacle that's blocking LOS and therefore a Direct attack.

Lots of good stuff like that.

Having fired a silly amount in the simulator and seen them fire (personaly I don't like firing AT stuff, don't know why, so at ranges I just fire my one and leave) a couple of times, yeah, they are nasty. Yes you have to worry about cover, but in order for a tank to engage you, it also needs LoS, so kind of handy there. A lot of the disadvantages of the system simply can't be modeled in PR, so a javelin would be a 1 shot insta-kill on any armored vehicle as well as having tracking ability, which gives no warning to the vehicle by the way.