Project Reality Forums

Lots of respectful opinions, and discussion. I like that =)
As for some of the responses, i'll paraphrase as i'm not adept with the quote deal....

"If you don't like tank maps go play on another server...."

Ok, I'd love to, and do any chance I get. However, that said, there aren't enough servers with more than a couple players in em to pick and chose from. Thems the ropes when you have an awesome mod, but it's not widely loved and played as "vanilla" BF2. I am glad that 'mostly' adept and non-smacktards play PR. However, it limits the population too.

"A properly deployed HAT team can take out tanks..."

Also a great theory. However, with rally points as easy to take out as they are, and the restrictions in place, they're just not placed. I agree that more people NEED to place RPs, but in reality it just doesn't happen. Need 4 people in 1 spot, more than 100m from a flag, that's in concealment. In Kashan desert for example, there just aren't that many places to put that. Once a tank notices infantry coming from a spot, they just super zoom and wipe it out. Also, when only 2 HAT's can be deployed, that's just not enough to take on 8 tanks a side. The other issue, is that HAT's can't be deployed from Rally Points or APCs. You have to get em at the main supply zone.

"Light AT aren't designed to take out tanks, neither is C4, and resupplying Mines from a Rally Point or vehicle...."

Well LAT's are basically useless except for Jeeps, and it's a one shot deal then. C4, well that's just worthless period if you can't knock out an APC or tank with it. Resupplying mines, be great except the RP problem noted above, and the fact that APC's get jacked and people drive off in em.

I know the Dev's main idea was to promote teamwork, and believe me I love it when a plan comes togeather! However, to properly tackle a tank (just 1) the following seems relevant...

1 Squad Leader - To deploy RP and provide spawn point
1 HAT - To shoot
1 Rifleman - To resupply
1-3 Combat Engineer (might have more than 1) - To deploy mines
1 Commander - To provide supply crate

At the VERY minimal, you need the first 4 guys unless the HAT guy lucks out and is in the right position. If more than 1 tank, you're screwed unless you have all 4.

What this means is it takes at LEAST 4 people to take out 1 or more tanks, that have 1 person driving.

8 tanks per the other side = 8 players
8 teams to knock out said tanks = 32+ players

Seems somewhat unbalanced
Throw in the APC's, and you're even more FUBAR.

Now the problem that I have on these "Armor Maps" isn't just the tanks...
It's the spawn locations. For example on the map with the airport and the super bunker facility (Kashan I think) the MEC spawning at the airport (can't spawn at the MEC Base or whatever it's called) have to drive a jeep, or run about 10 miles just to get a kit. Makes for a LONG game, and I previously stated why trying to find another server might be a problem.

Love the game, and love the intent. I just feel that tanks are a little weighted, and could do with tweaking. Give the Combat engineers some mines or C4 packs, or allow commanders to deploy TOW's. Or heck, TOW's could just (and should be) in place and already situated at set spawn points for defense.

Thanks for keeping this conversation civil! I love seeing more ideas, and it makes my infantry tactics even better, when it's possible.

I just wish there could be a way for Infantry to storm tanks and toss nades in cause they didn't get the hatched closed and locked in time. In game of course. Now that would be cool

Chapel wrote: "A properly deployed HAT team can take out tanks..."

Also a great theory. However, with rally points as easy to take out as they are, and the restrictions in place, they're just not placed. I agree that more people NEED to place RPs, but in reality it just doesn't happen. Need 4 people in 1 spot, more than 100m from a flag, that's in concealment. In Kashan desert for example, there just aren't that many places to put that. Once a tank notices infantry coming from a spot, they just super zoom and wipe it out. Also, when only 2 HAT's can be deployed, that's just not enough to take on 8 tanks a side. The other issue, is that HAT's can't be deployed from Rally Points or APCs. You have to get em at the main supply zone.

On Kashan Desert, a great place to put rallies are inside the bunkers which is usually where the battle takes place. Most likely checked by infantry but shielded from Armored Vehicles. It doesnt end there.

If you think a tank sees you, use smoke grenades and get out of sight. If you are lucky, you have an engineer in your squad to take out the tanks (C4 + Mine Combo) if they start heading your way. If a tank gets you, learn from your mistakes and learn to spot them when they are on the move.

HATs can be requested from APCs, Main Bases, Firebases, Defensive Bunkers and Supply Crates. That is a lot of places to get them, they may not be available, but thats another matter.

I've been in dedicated HAT squads and Tanks are never a problem. A very important tip is location. Being one-step ahead of tankers can help a lot.

Chapel wrote: "Light AT aren't designed to take out tanks, neither is C4, and resupplying Mines from a Rally Point or vehicle...."

Well LAT's are basically useless except for Jeeps, and it's a one shot deal then. C4, well that's just worthless period if you can't knock out an APC or tank with it. Resupplying mines, be great except the RP problem noted above, and the fact that APC's get jacked and people drive off in em.

True, this requires teamwork. APCs take two hits from Light AT to take them out. Either have two people request two LATs from a rally and have them coodinate agains the APC or have a rifleman supply ammo. Engineers can have great success if they get support from their squad (smoke grenades for rushing to the armored vehicle, or resupply for C4 and mines). Teamwork is key.

Chapel wrote: I know the Dev's main idea was to promote teamwork, and believe me I love it when a plan comes togeather! However, to properly tackle a tank (just 1) the following seems relevant...

1 Squad Leader - To deploy RP and provide spawn point
1 HAT - To shoot
1 Rifleman - To resupply
1-3 Combat Engineer (might have more than 1) - To deploy mines
1 Commander - To provide supply crate

At the VERY minimal, you need the first 4 guys unless the HAT guy lucks out and is in the right position. If more than 1 tank, you're screwed unless you have all 4.

What this means is it takes at LEAST 4 people to take out 1 or more tanks, that have 1 person driving.

8 tanks per the other side = 8 players
8 teams to knock out said tanks = 32+ players

Seems somewhat unbalanced
Throw in the APC's, and you're even more FUBAR.

You forgot to mention your team's own tanks and/or attack aircraft in which to take these tanks out. If your team's tanks are only going for infantry, there lies the problem. If you find youself in an encounter with enemy armor, relay the info to your team or even better, ask your commander for an Airstrike. Hell, call in a supply crate if needed. If none of those are optional, its okay to fall back.

Chapel wrote: Now the problem that I have on these "Armor Maps" isn't just the tanks...
It's the spawn locations. For example on the map with the airport and the super bunker facility (Kashan I think) the MEC spawning at the airport (can't spawn at the MEC Base or whatever it's called) have to drive a jeep, or run about 10 miles just to get a kit. Makes for a LONG game, and I previously stated why trying to find another server might be a problem.

Now there should be a defensive bunker at the airfield to request kits and the like. (Near the hangers I think). Hope this helps.

Numbers . 8 tanks at the same time - thats too much for any PR map & 64p servers . I say , untill there will be 128p servers ( if possible ) tanks should be limited to 4 per team with tank waves spawning if only all tanks were destroyed . What I liked about PR 0.4-0.5 were maps that had vehicles but still were infantry-focused . Vehicles in PR should be deadly , well protected , agile etc., but their number should be restricted : 2\3 of the team should be infantry and only 1\3 - vehicle crews . Atm we have 10 ppl in tanks\jets\chopers , 5 ppl waiting for tanks\jets\chopers and only 16 infantry ( -2 snipers and -1(sometimes 2) marksmen ) - thats only two full infantry squads on Kashan Desert\Zatar Wetlands\Daqing Oildfields . Take away non-teamplayers , noobs , etc. and you will have 8-10 ppl actually working together .

I've never thought that PR is about 'soloing' in tanks . That must be ended in 0.7 .
Untill tanks will be able to move\shoot without gunner\driver I won't enjoy any of this vehicle maps as they are highly unrealistic at the moment . Tanks that stay in the same position for entire round - fail .

Another thing is H-AT damage . Yesterday I shot Eryx in the APC ( LAV-25 , to be exactly ) side part and what happened ? No , it didn't blew up ; neither the crew and troops inside were killed . It stopped , unloaded , and moved away faster then my Eryx got reloaded . Wtf ? Yes , it's a game and AT weapons shouldn't be insta-kill , but make them atleast disable the vehicle\kill the crew (some % of chance )
If H-AT hits the tank\apc , turret movement and vehicle itself should be disabled .

I've never thought that PR is about 'soloing' in tanks . That must be ended in 0.7 .
Untill tanks will be able to move\shoot without gunner\driver I won't enjoy any of this vehicle maps as they are highly unrealistic at the moment . Tanks that stay in the same position for entire round - fail

x2^^

I so hate this solo driving tank shit.
On Ejod, we had two T90s camping on the hill west of West city - when do tanks climb hills?
They were both solo, so I get my squaddie in a tank and go waay around their asses and just as we sneak, we get the first shot on one, then he shoots back, then the other one drives back, switches to gun and they both fire at us simultaneously. WTF?
Then I switched teams and saw, that the two solo's are some nubs with a 1337 name (€|^°ˇ° or something) and have IDIOT tags...server admins, ban the smacktards..

What I propose, that you would have to get out of the tank to switch between driver position and gunner&.50 cal position.
And also delay - warming up -, so you can't just drive off. The IFV has that, so why dont the rest?

Also, is there something, that can be done to prevent tanks camping on hills?
I know, its high ground advantage tactic blahblah, but what the hell is a tank doing on the top of a mountain peak?

VipersGhost wrote:I would present a lot of fact based researc/expereince before you go spouting off about what needs to be fix with such a tone.

I wouldn't. Reality is irrelevent if it makes the game unplayable, and tanks are game-breakers at the moment, and the release isn't even that old yet, leaving plenty of time for armour-whores to improve to pin-point perfection.

<sighs> Time for me to make a "what's the big deal with 'reality'" rant...

Plenty of times my squad has had to sit behind the ridge waiting for tanks\CAS to respawn and give us some relief. Welcome to battle, to many whiners want to always be doing something, killing, attacking etc but it just isn't realistic. Few people seem to understand the idea of retreat. Al Kufra, my team is being dominated from the get go...I was commander and their tankers just worked us over, the map is armor dependant so we had to concede both oil stations and drop back to our MEC village (EDIT-This is not the Main base btw). I tell every squad to fall back and defend. They do, TG server has good TW at times. Their team takes a while to mount a coordinated attack...gives us time for our armor to respawn and this time...good guys get it. Now this whole time our Troops have retreated and are sitting tight...setting up battle lines and generally getting together finally. Our tanks are alive and now we have all their over aggressive armor spotted. So our tanks overrun them and we push them all the way back to their village and let the raping begin. Yes armor is everything in the real battlefield at times...troops get stuck and pinned with little else to do sometimes. The key is to stay patient and do what you can...not try to over extend yourself. Sometimes you get beat early...when it rains it pours. Oh well, there's always next time...learn to tank its awesomely fun.

VipersGhost wrote:Few people seem to understand the idea of retreat.

Yah, let's retreat from the forces attacking our main base, watch the flag fall, and then we can 0wn!

As great a tactic as that is, I prefer one that doesn't involve conceding ground to the enemy until we're getting spawn-raped in main, or there's a squad of 6 men stranded in the middle of the map with no spawn against the entire enemy smugly camping the main.

I agree with vipersghost: not many players realize when they are disadvantaged, and the best course of action is to sit tight and wait for help to arrive...

You see a tank coming at you, your in a well protected area, what do most players try to do? Run at the tank with c4 in their hands, hoping he wont see you... then immediately get destroyed by the tank coaxial ripping the guys body to shreds.

That kinda ****... really dumb...

When did I say run to the main and get raped?? I just posted an example on Al Kufra when we retreated to a non-main Village...it had no bleed and we only conceded a single flag (storage) that is out in the open waiting for tank raped. Village (MEC side) is a great place to defend even if armor is upon you, it bought us time. Lets not just to extremes here, I'm just stating what WORKED for me instead of sitting there getting dominated and forking tickets over.

'[R-MOD wrote:

No, they dont NEEED to do anything. I would think it is a good think that C4 does jack-squit to a Tank, because it will detere people from doing it, as it just doesnt happen IRL. Please chose your words carefuly, as 'pathetic' comes across quite condecending and rude. Your lucky its a MOD and not a DEV that is saying this.

...mongol...

I can agree with the majority of what you said and where as i think it would be a huge help to infantry and not at all unrealistic to add in some sort of mine you could burry or what not I must simply disagree with you out right about the c4.

placed on a tanks track or suspension the amount of c4 that the engineers hold in there hand would be quite enough to do some considerable damage a small amount of c4 of course wouldnt do it how ever the bricks of it carried in Bf2/PR is a large amount and the damage that much c4 could cause would probably be a shock to many people. people often underestimate explosives but if you were to say compare the amount of c4 the engineers hold to the amount of high explosive in a grenade you would understand what im saying.

now im not saying that c4 would penetrate all that armor on the tanks but it would however blow links out of a track if not go as far as blowing an idler wheel or two off. maybe shrink the c4 charge a bit because it is at least as much explosive as those mines are holding if not more.

VipersGhost wrote:When did I say run to the main and get raped?

Every flag you concede drags you closer to main. If you can't stop the enemy when you're close and you have the element of surprise, it is unrealistic to think you will fare better just because they've got another flag and are getting a bleed-advantage. All that hiding and biding your time does is maybe give your team a chance to get some more armour or for a H-AT kit to get freed up.

Great in theory, in practice it's pointless. Unchallenged there's a good chance enemy tanks / infantry can roll right up to your armour spawn before you can use it, and if whoever has the H-AT is also employing the "retreat and play it safe" mentality, then he's gonna be head down, and you're not gonna get that kit, no matter how many flags and tickets you concede.

Also, not criticising, but is it possible that your "retreat and wait" strategy is working precisely because you have a lot of suicidal team-mates charging tanks and keeping them content slaughtering them, when instead they'd be rolling onto objectives and ending the round prematurely? If everyone retreated from the tanks, what do you expect to stop them hopping from flag to flag until you have none left and are going to get main-raped?

Again there is no bleed on village for MEC in Al Kufra. That aside, its really a matter of positioning...you make it sound like retreat should never be an option. When it comes to gaming its certainly counter-intuitive but I assure it does work. Look, in these big maps your troops tend to get spread out and rather seperated right? They are out in the open, the flags(al kufra production and storage) are very open to tank fire. NOW, what I was reffering to was that I did indeed bring my entire team to one area, built a firebase and already had a bunker...all back at the MEC village. This allowed us to defend ourselves quite well. The village area and that blown up Airplane crater are MUCH safer from Armor attacks. If the armor does attack I know that our HAT kit is close by because every single team member is present in one area and has great support from supplie drop/bunkers. NOW it does take a while for enemy teams to all get together on these maps. Some were still at Production, many were defending Storage. So I said...hell let them sit. it was a while before their whole team realised that they needed to attack. Some were for sure, but they are now out in the open and every single one of my guys is sitting around with 10 buddies waiting to cap his *** with G3's and sniper rifles. Good tankers are at times very reluctant to move near village as they are rather vulnerable...perfering to sit behind Storage and snipe infantry. Yes we sustained losses but nothing near of what we would have....and there was no way in hell they would break through such a massive defensive perimeter. Trust me they were losing guys as fast as we were due to the nature of the terrian...Storage sucks, there no place to hole up in. Village and the crashed airplane allow for an amazing defense that is very hard to crack. If any tanks try to roll by they will be under attack by engineers and AT from several directions. You have to take terrain into the account...the US village just doesn't have NEARLY the same defensive advantages when being waylayed. The MEC does entirely. I'm just telling you dude, it works fine...you just have to be creative. Oh and obvoulsy my TG teammates were well versed as every single squad listened and put up such a nasty-non-suicidal fight that we kicked their *** all the way home and won with 60 tickets left. Close game and a nice comeback. Just giving you some hope and saying that armor domination is real but can be dealt with...you just have to put together a creative solution.

BTW if you watch the clock and keep tabs on thing as a commander you will know when reinforcements will arive, thus giving you some planning. A retreat with 20 mins to go on your tank timers isn't going to help you.

Viper : Holy Wall of Text, Batman !

In general, I do believe that creativity will prevail, but I would also agree that the C4 is pitifully weak in comparison to an equivilent size RL block. Someone above mentioned a couple or three kilos.... that's about enough to turn a civilian saloon into a shuriken bomb for about 100 meters.

I also think that the design of the C4 charge is bad, especially for going up against armour. It's a few bricks of explosive, taped together, with a timer/detonator stuck in the end. Against an effective backstop (ie 100mm +++ of rolled steel plate on the front end of an MBT) all it's really going to do is

1. make the tankers' ears bleed
2. crater the armour a bit
3. burn the paintwork

because there's nothing CONTAINING the blast.

Example (ripped from that film Armageddon):
Put a firecracker in your hand, palm open and set it off. Unless you're really unlucky, the worst that's going to happen is you burn your hand.
Curl your fingers around the firecracker, and you're gonna lose your fingers.

It's because the blast isn't directional... the tank will resist the explosion long enough for the blast to head OUT and AWAY from the tank.

IF the C4 charge is in-game designed to be used against tanks / armoured vehicles, it can't be a block of plastic slapped on the side... it needs to be a shaped charge - designed to penetrate armour.

Encase it with Steel. Stick it to the tank.

The casing resists the expanding gasses from the explosion long enough to focus them in a single direction... towards the tank... thus having their maximal effect against the smallest area - instead of expanding into a hemisphere outwards. Of course, the casing won't survive the explosion - but it's not designed to - only to contain it for the milliseconds required to focus the blast.

IMHO the only use the existing block has, is to remove buildings from the terrain. And we don't have fully-destructable environments yet... (ie. plant the explosive in the house, set the timer, run away.... duck and cover and giggle as bits of masonry bounce off your helmet.)

IF we had fully destructable dynamic terrain with ballistic forces modelled, we could use a pair of C4 charges opposite each other on a cut-from-the-ground alleyway (am sure there's some map that has this, tho cant think of one right now.
The forces emitted by a 3kg block of C4, with nowhere to go but impact against the tank, detonated simultaneously, would rip the tank (no matter what it's armour was) to bits, effectively crushing it flat.

The thing is - until / unless the devs can figure out a way of ensuring that the blast can be funnelled and channelled realistically, we're left with the rather lame cherrybomb that doesn't do much good apart from killing noob infantry who set it wrong.

-ZD-

EDIT : Meh - ASCII Art sucketh Bigtime. Think of the RHS wall being straight and you should get the point. =-)

The depiction of C4 isn't really the biggest issue here. It's the useage.
"Combat Engineer" just always seemed to me to mean they're there to fix stuff, and blow stuff up. The C4 as is won't even take out an ACP on the rear armor (assuming that's the weakest).

I love the diagram of channeling the explosives inwards, with two packets, and I used to set traps like this all the time in BF2 that worked effectively. You can't do this in PR because you only get one packet.

As far as retreating goes, I fully agree and understand when and where to retreat and do it often. However, i'd have to point out that expecting the rest of the team to step up and pull through isn't a great point to make. For example, look how many people are milling around a random Flag at any given time asking over the team channel "How come the flag's not going down and changing?!?!".
I pull my map up and notice there's not a D for Defend or A for Attack sigil there and just laugh.

You can point out tanks all day long, and I mean ALL day long and everyone else will just assume someone else will take care of em. I've been trying to play Combat Engineer, and HAT (Never succesfully gotten this kit), as well as L-AT with the sole purpose of fighting tanks, without tanks.

All I'm saying is that it's very difficult and I think that the cost/benifit is not the same and could use a little change.

Thanks for the input though, definately getting more and more ideas.

Chapel, what server do you play on?

BTW don't tanks use "active armor" in places?

Some clarifications:

In Kashan you can get your kits in the main base at the bunker located near the hangars.

As engineer you can place up to 8 mines and up to 5 C4s (if I'm not mistaken). Just need to reload after placing one.

There's no distinction in armor between the rear/lef/right/front sides of an APC. Only tanks have that difference.

You can get HAT kits from main base, bunkers, firebases, APCs and supply drops.

There's no way to do location damage. If you shoot a tank in the tracks, we can't make the tracks get disabled.

The damage system is random and sometimes it doesn't work because of BF2's weird engine.

Saying something like "it should at least damage the tracks or turret" means nothing code-wise. We can only hope that the disable system kicks in correctly and the engine allow us to disable it.

HAT is not the only thing to get enemy tanks (in most maps). You have your team tanks, attack helicopters and attack jets.

Teamwork is the key.

I'm all for teamwork and utilize it whenever I can. Just seems like the argument should work for Tanks as well. 1 player in a tank doesn't need to include a whole lot of teamwork.

I play on any server I can that has a low ping. Seems like a lot of servers are kicking for pings over 100, so it's limited. LOL
I've played on TG a few times, and sometimes it seems like a jumblechunk of people going this way or that. Any recommendations of great servers is likewise appreciated!

Make no mistake though, the post I made wasn't intended to nerf, or downplay the way the game works, or in anyway degrade the efforts and systems in place. I merely was looking to mention that it just seems like there's a disproportionate amount of Heavy armor to Infantry with a lack of equipment to take em down.

Thanks for the info on the supply zone kit allocation points, as well as knowing you can place more mines and C4. It's to bad C4 can't be laser wire tripped or something! =)

TG is money most of the time, I get a great game out of there at least 50% of the time...and thats pretty good. By great I mean, my sqaud is WORKING and the rest of the team is in step as well. As far as solo armor goes? Well that can work a little bit...but go ahead and watch a good squad run 3 tanks together and then ask me how solo tanking is effective. Armor teams are just nasty man, when that cavlery comes in and know how to play...sheesh. Thats usually how things get bad, some idiots are solo tanking etc and get waxed by a TEAM of armor that knows what its doing, knows the land and the good positions. If the opposing team has that and you dont....say good bye because theres not a lot you can do unless the aircraft can get it going.