Realism HUD Design
-
Kos'aaK
- Posts: 50
- Joined: 2005-11-18 15:53
OK let me show you what I mean. http://img460.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hehe7yd.jpg Of course you'd have the option to press "M" and check the full map, but as HUD, only these 3 would remain and would also be toggleable. It's just my suggestion, what do you think? Constructive criticism welcome, I'd just like a nice HUD in PR
-
dawdler
- Posts: 604
- Joined: 2005-11-13 14:45
Why do you need a compass? There are no directions in BF2 to take aim after anyway.JuRrO wrote:OK let me show you what I mean. http://img460.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hehe7yd.jpg Of course you'd have the option to press "M" and check the full map, but as HUD, only these 3 would remain and would also be toggleable. It's just my suggestion, what do you think? Constructive criticism welcome, I'd just like a nice HUD in PR
-
Kos'aaK
- Posts: 50
- Joined: 2005-11-18 15:53
It could be anything to integrate spotted enemys and orders from squad leaders and commanders. I don't want any kind of mini-map, it's just not realistic to see it on the fly. . . Of course another thing ist the normal map. . . The compass or something similar would give you an idea where to go or where the action is because you cannot see an animation of your sqadleader showing directly to a sniper on a hill, so it just could be a general hint to you as to where the important stuff approximately is. . . I mean like spotted enemys, injured teammates for medics, out of ammo guys for support etc., orders from squadleaders and commanders, etc. . . I mean, go ahead and check the GPS (tactical map) for exact waypoints and stuff you know. . .but not in the HUD that is. Another thing is - there is so many useless info on the HUD in BF2. I think we should come to the point where we agree what the important things are and integrate them into some kind of easy system. SO, what is the important info for you?dawdler wrote:Why do you need a compass? There are no directions in BF2 to take aim after anyway.
For me (toggleable):
- Orders
- Spots
- Ammo
- Health
Last edited by Kos'aaK on 2005-11-30 17:07, edited 1 time in total.
-
hoak
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 2005-06-23 06:40
2D overlays of any size will trash the depth cues in a game; that's a fact and one I happen not to like. Many serious Tactical Realism games and mods get along wtih virtually, or absolutely no HUD just fine: Red Orchestra, Vietcong 1 & 2, and virtually every Clancy game ever made can be and often is configured to run HUDless server side.
None of the features you suggest that are included in many Action and Arcade Realism games have real world 'always on' analogs or 'percision discreet information displays'. Moreover all of these featuers already have better analogs already in BF2/PRM:
Health Status Indicator - already has the visual damage compass, visual tunnel effects, and the player model makes sounds of distress when injured (though I'd change these to heart beat effects as not everyone pisses and moans, and it gets annoying fast)... Magic health meters are demoralizing, and create ridiculous arcade effect with regard to 'game play' and game decision making on par with 'Bunny Jumping' for realism...
Ammunition Graph - in the real world the only way you know how many rounds you have left in a weapon is to count when you fire, if you can't count, you suck, and you will die -- sooner rather then later. The alternative is to take the magazine out of your weapon and look, but that's not an alternative under any live fire situation, where any level of real threat persists, and many magazines don't allow you a precise look at the number of rounds remaining (while some do the only time you'd actually look is when you really don't need to know anyway). If an honest analog of realism is to be offered you should have to press and hold a key and endure a few second delay to get an ammo count.
Game Status Indicators - persistent 'always on' indicators just don't have real world analogs, and even though we don't have the overall degree of real world flexibility and situational awareness in BF2/PRM in just as many regards we already have more. You for example are never in any real game related pain, suffering or stress, physically hot, cold, or exhausted, or generally miserable. Your level of focus on world detail and situational awareness in general is unmitigated by anything stronger then the urge to pee or being annoyed by someone's 'unsportsman like conduct' and your attention span, nothing in the game offers you a fraction of the stress or distraction of the real banana...
Compass - as the BF2 Tactical Map has more sophistocated navigation aids then a real map and compass; or even pocket GPS system -- which in the real world you have to take out, unfold, or turn on and focus on anyway. There is neither need or any realism to be found in a magically 'always on' compass. There's also the issue of scripting one and the fact that it's redundant with the player pawn/icon that shows your absolute position and view direction, in real-time, more precisely, with greater resolution, faster updating then any GPS or real world map and compass field nav system...
Summarily the telemetry already on the Tactical Map is accessed more realistically, and offers an abundance of information that still exceeds what most free world battle field Commanders have available no less a Squad Captain...
IMHO if PRM were to loose it's HUD affectations in entire the game would be better for it. While there's no real reason what-so-ever that PRM should have to make itself like BF2, I suppose HUD features could have some manner of G_Realism server side lock that could turn everything on to give you the magical: glowing, throbbing, spinning, blinking foofoo of vanilla BF2 for those that just want a spammy game with more powerful weapons and new art assets... But there are already plenty of mods like that and more on the way; why bother?
Δ
None of the features you suggest that are included in many Action and Arcade Realism games have real world 'always on' analogs or 'percision discreet information displays'. Moreover all of these featuers already have better analogs already in BF2/PRM:
Health Status Indicator - already has the visual damage compass, visual tunnel effects, and the player model makes sounds of distress when injured (though I'd change these to heart beat effects as not everyone pisses and moans, and it gets annoying fast)... Magic health meters are demoralizing, and create ridiculous arcade effect with regard to 'game play' and game decision making on par with 'Bunny Jumping' for realism...
Ammunition Graph - in the real world the only way you know how many rounds you have left in a weapon is to count when you fire, if you can't count, you suck, and you will die -- sooner rather then later. The alternative is to take the magazine out of your weapon and look, but that's not an alternative under any live fire situation, where any level of real threat persists, and many magazines don't allow you a precise look at the number of rounds remaining (while some do the only time you'd actually look is when you really don't need to know anyway). If an honest analog of realism is to be offered you should have to press and hold a key and endure a few second delay to get an ammo count.
Game Status Indicators - persistent 'always on' indicators just don't have real world analogs, and even though we don't have the overall degree of real world flexibility and situational awareness in BF2/PRM in just as many regards we already have more. You for example are never in any real game related pain, suffering or stress, physically hot, cold, or exhausted, or generally miserable. Your level of focus on world detail and situational awareness in general is unmitigated by anything stronger then the urge to pee or being annoyed by someone's 'unsportsman like conduct' and your attention span, nothing in the game offers you a fraction of the stress or distraction of the real banana...
Compass - as the BF2 Tactical Map has more sophistocated navigation aids then a real map and compass; or even pocket GPS system -- which in the real world you have to take out, unfold, or turn on and focus on anyway. There is neither need or any realism to be found in a magically 'always on' compass. There's also the issue of scripting one and the fact that it's redundant with the player pawn/icon that shows your absolute position and view direction, in real-time, more precisely, with greater resolution, faster updating then any GPS or real world map and compass field nav system...
Summarily the telemetry already on the Tactical Map is accessed more realistically, and offers an abundance of information that still exceeds what most free world battle field Commanders have available no less a Squad Captain...
IMHO if PRM were to loose it's HUD affectations in entire the game would be better for it. While there's no real reason what-so-ever that PRM should have to make itself like BF2, I suppose HUD features could have some manner of G_Realism server side lock that could turn everything on to give you the magical: glowing, throbbing, spinning, blinking foofoo of vanilla BF2 for those that just want a spammy game with more powerful weapons and new art assets... But there are already plenty of mods like that and more on the way; why bother?
Δ
Last edited by hoak on 2005-11-30 18:07, edited 1 time in total.
-
Rg
- Posts: 181
- Joined: 2005-06-17 22:35
-
dawdler
- Posts: 604
- Joined: 2005-11-13 14:45
But you have, the strategic map. So its not too bad.Rg wrote:Absolutely agree with the alpha-numeric grid on the map.
Since you would have no visual guides, you just say I need a medic/ammo at 7A ect.
Anyway, it would be nice to see it as a test. Just disable the dang thing alltogether! Its still a minimod, trying it out on a larger scale wont hurt... Maybe it'll work; maybe it wont. If it dont work, its easy to fix. But beware: Now is the time to test it. Its going to be too late to do something that drastic if the mod ever becomes more popular
-
hoak
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 2005-06-23 06:40
Well it's rather easy to test for fun in vanilla BF2, in fact I've made it something of a habbit, though it does have some annoying limitations. All you have to do is type "renderer.drawhud 0" in the console to turn off the HUD in entire. The drawback is it turns off all overlays which includes the Tactical Maps, the reticule (including the one that's part aim point optical sights), the communications pie menus, and even your mouse pointer.
The good news is you can easily get it all back by typing "renderer.drawhud 1" and once you've typed in the two commands to turn off and on the game's overlays you don't have to retype them, you can just flip back and forth by dropping the console and hitting your up and down arrow keys to select the on or off command option, hit "Enter" and it's done one way or the other.
Playing with no HUD and overlays has other disadvantages and advantages in vanilla BF2; obviously everyone else has more telemetry, and you have to go through extra hoops of dropping the console to load and unload the UI for basic menu tasks and must use ironsights weapons as scoped rifles don't have a center dot; but the advantages are just as real, apparent and immediate -- you'll notice:
· less distraction and an vastly more immersive game environment
· better depth perception and more awareness of your immediate surroundings
· that you adopt more realistic and effective marksmanship & weapon handling
· better frame rate performance on some systems
· generally that you'll notice opposing forces before they notice you
· that it's easier and to "keep up" and work with your squad
Overall if you suck it up and tough it out playing without HUD and overlays in vanilla BF2 you'll notice you more realistically (and effectively) manuver, use realistic and effective cover and concealment, and tend to play closer and more effectively with your squad. Of course in many critical regards in vanilla BF2 you play at a substantial disadvantage, but it's still can be a lot of fun, very addicting, and what it reveals to most that tough it past the learning curve is there is a lot of fun and immersiveness that's lost in vanilla BF2, that is easily had in more realistic games and mods...
Δ
The good news is you can easily get it all back by typing "renderer.drawhud 1" and once you've typed in the two commands to turn off and on the game's overlays you don't have to retype them, you can just flip back and forth by dropping the console and hitting your up and down arrow keys to select the on or off command option, hit "Enter" and it's done one way or the other.
Playing with no HUD and overlays has other disadvantages and advantages in vanilla BF2; obviously everyone else has more telemetry, and you have to go through extra hoops of dropping the console to load and unload the UI for basic menu tasks and must use ironsights weapons as scoped rifles don't have a center dot; but the advantages are just as real, apparent and immediate -- you'll notice:
· less distraction and an vastly more immersive game environment
· better depth perception and more awareness of your immediate surroundings
· that you adopt more realistic and effective marksmanship & weapon handling
· better frame rate performance on some systems
· generally that you'll notice opposing forces before they notice you
· that it's easier and to "keep up" and work with your squad
Overall if you suck it up and tough it out playing without HUD and overlays in vanilla BF2 you'll notice you more realistically (and effectively) manuver, use realistic and effective cover and concealment, and tend to play closer and more effectively with your squad. Of course in many critical regards in vanilla BF2 you play at a substantial disadvantage, but it's still can be a lot of fun, very addicting, and what it reveals to most that tough it past the learning curve is there is a lot of fun and immersiveness that's lost in vanilla BF2, that is easily had in more realistic games and mods...
Δ
Last edited by hoak on 2005-11-30 20:30, edited 1 time in total.
-
Rg
- Posts: 181
- Joined: 2005-06-17 22:35
Yea, I tried it out last night and it’s much more immersive, but I’m saying that I would want to try/test out the changes to the game where you would have to toggle “stuff” on/off and any other changes made. As you said with "renderer.drawhud 0", there is absolutely nothing, which would obviously not the case in this mod.
-
hoak
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 2005-06-23 06:40
Absolutely! That has been my point throughout the whole thread; when everyone has the same game design under them sans HUD, and access to the Tactical Map it would really come into it's own. I was just suggesting a means for some fo the more skeptical posters to check it out and at least give it it a shake (though not really a fair one)...Rg wrote:Yea, I tried it out last night and it’s much more immersive, but I’m saying that I would want to try/test out the changes to the game where you would have to toggle “stuff” on/off and any other changes made. As you said with "renderer.drawhud 0", there is absolutely nothing, which would obviously not the case in this mod.
Last edited by hoak on 2005-11-30 22:03, edited 1 time in total.
-
Gunfighter34ID
- Posts: 54
- Joined: 2005-11-28 18:01
I'm all for removing the HUD and putting some type of grid on the tactical map. The game does give out far too much real-time information but if you have to hit 'M' to get there at least you're not getting it all spoon-fed to you as you run like Carl Lewis while bunny-hopping and firing your FN2000 grenade launcher from the hip.
Perhaps you could just integrate all the information you'd want into the tactical map so that you'd have a one-stop shop as far as information is concerned, i.e., you hit 'M' and it tells you how many mags you have left, gives you a more simplified health meter (if there's some kind of desire to keep that), etc.
I do have mixed feelings about what information should be displayed. For example, if it comes down to ammo count I wouldn't know exactly how many rounds were in the magazine of an M16A2 unless I'd kept count when firing, but I've handled the rifles enough to have a rough idea of how close I am to needing a change. So do you keep a round count as well as number of mags, or do you do like RO and go with the "magazine is heavy" or "magazine is light" type deal.
But overall I agree with hoak's proposal. The focus should be on what's in front of you and around you, and the mini map offers more than enough command and control tools for the squad leaders and team leaders.
Perhaps you could just integrate all the information you'd want into the tactical map so that you'd have a one-stop shop as far as information is concerned, i.e., you hit 'M' and it tells you how many mags you have left, gives you a more simplified health meter (if there's some kind of desire to keep that), etc.
I do have mixed feelings about what information should be displayed. For example, if it comes down to ammo count I wouldn't know exactly how many rounds were in the magazine of an M16A2 unless I'd kept count when firing, but I've handled the rifles enough to have a rough idea of how close I am to needing a change. So do you keep a round count as well as number of mags, or do you do like RO and go with the "magazine is heavy" or "magazine is light" type deal.
But overall I agree with hoak's proposal. The focus should be on what's in front of you and around you, and the mini map offers more than enough command and control tools for the squad leaders and team leaders.
-
Kos'aaK
- Posts: 50
- Joined: 2005-11-18 15:53
-
Gunfighter34ID
- Posts: 54
- Joined: 2005-11-28 18:01
I bought UT2004 just to play RO. I liked it a lot, but none of the guys I usually play online with have it. That, and the advent of the tank maps and the introduction of that more arcadish style of gameplay kind of turned me off to it. I still think it's a great game; maybe one of the best mods ever made for any game, I just don't play it anymore.
As for your suggestion there, JuRro, I agree with you personally. A lot of people depend on the text chat who don't use comms, though. I'm usually on Roger Wilco with the guys I'm playing with as in my experience voip comms are usually overrun with annoying kids (sorry to you younger guys who aren't annoying kids), but sometimes you want or need the text chat to communicate with guys you're not on a net with.
I think a cool solution would be to leave it as is for those who don't mind it on the screen, but make an option so that you can also have the chat in a pop-up window like the mini-map. Just make it a toggle thing to read it and respond and then toggle out and get back to the game.
As for your suggestion there, JuRro, I agree with you personally. A lot of people depend on the text chat who don't use comms, though. I'm usually on Roger Wilco with the guys I'm playing with as in my experience voip comms are usually overrun with annoying kids (sorry to you younger guys who aren't annoying kids), but sometimes you want or need the text chat to communicate with guys you're not on a net with.
I think a cool solution would be to leave it as is for those who don't mind it on the screen, but make an option so that you can also have the chat in a pop-up window like the mini-map. Just make it a toggle thing to read it and respond and then toggle out and get back to the game.
-
hoak
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 2005-06-23 06:40
I personally don't think the text chat/message console should be done away with... This is one feature as mentioned some can't do without; and communication is the one real time UI element that you do always have real-time, instant access to in the real world as well.
It whould be really nice to have a client side option to toggle text on/off and filters for team and/or squad only messages to reduce spam though!
A smaller, more defined font with with adjustable alpha transparency could make the text messages a lot less obtrusive and easier to read as well.
Finally text messages, becasue they are momentary (not persistent), small, and don't have regular edges like iconographic HUD elements is not as destructive to the game world illusion depth, or practical game depth perception.
Simple, momentary status text messages might well be a nice middle ground that would be both easy to script and offer more immediate information then no HUD at all; for example you could have a status key that when pressed and held would tell you your health (in general terms) and and weapon status like this:
Health: You're severly fucked up Dude, if you so much as fart yer gonna die!
Load Out: 2.5 Magazines 5.56 Ammo, 3 HE/Frag Grenades...
For more realism magazines status could approximate to only quarters: 2.5, 1.25, 0.75 etc. and it would be assumed the fractional magazine is loaded.
Similarly the huge and ugly, ridiculous and redundant weapon switch icons should be completely removed and replaced with small, clean and simple fading text with the real name name of the weapon in one small spot on the screen.
Δ
It whould be really nice to have a client side option to toggle text on/off and filters for team and/or squad only messages to reduce spam though!
A smaller, more defined font with with adjustable alpha transparency could make the text messages a lot less obtrusive and easier to read as well.
Finally text messages, becasue they are momentary (not persistent), small, and don't have regular edges like iconographic HUD elements is not as destructive to the game world illusion depth, or practical game depth perception.
Simple, momentary status text messages might well be a nice middle ground that would be both easy to script and offer more immediate information then no HUD at all; for example you could have a status key that when pressed and held would tell you your health (in general terms) and and weapon status like this:
Health: You're severly fucked up Dude, if you so much as fart yer gonna die!
Load Out: 2.5 Magazines 5.56 Ammo, 3 HE/Frag Grenades...
For more realism magazines status could approximate to only quarters: 2.5, 1.25, 0.75 etc. and it would be assumed the fractional magazine is loaded.
Similarly the huge and ugly, ridiculous and redundant weapon switch icons should be completely removed and replaced with small, clean and simple fading text with the real name name of the weapon in one small spot on the screen.
Δ
Last edited by hoak on 2005-12-01 17:04, edited 1 time in total.
-
Suicide Commando
- Posts: 75
- Joined: 2005-12-01 16:05
regarding the hud and specifically the health meter. I found this post while looking through the RO forum. Could this sort of idea be used for PR? Its much better than a health bar.
Sorry if you have something similar already, I haven't played it online yet (just messing about on my own) due to the graphic glitches.
Sorry if you have something similar already, I haven't played it online yet (just messing about on my own) due to the graphic glitches.
-
dawdler
- Posts: 604
- Joined: 2005-11-13 14:45
You see a similar indicator when bleeding, but it doesnt change color.Suicide Commando wrote:regarding the hud and specifically the health meter. I found this post while looking through the RO forum. Could this sort of idea be used for PR? Its much better than a health bar.
Sorry if you have something similar already, I haven't played it online yet (just messing about on my own) due to the graphic glitches.
Personally I dont like that idea though. Its too annoying to have all the time and just like 2D indicators, its going to feel like a filter in front of your eyes. Plus a game where you basicly either live or die in confrontations there is little need for health indicators.
-
hoak
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 2005-06-23 06:40
I really wish the PRM Dev Team would as Rg suggests; just try removing the HUD in entire in the next point release of the 'Mini-Mod', just to get the playership to give it a whirl...
As far as magic damage buttons, meters, bar-graphs and icons go; it's like the rest of the goof-ball arcade HUD telemetry and as dawdler suggests -- the level of damage or injury you've sustained in this game is casual regardless, it's not like knowing you have 27% life left is going to either dramatically change how you play the game other the by distracting you with unrealistic information.
Perhaps damage skins on the player models (if that's possible) so that a Medic can see that players on their team are a bloody mess and must be healed or they don't have long to do much would add something actually useful and realistic.
But as far as the player's perspective is concerned space craft telemetry for: health, your load-out & ammo count, precise player location in real-time by magical means, precision stamina displays -- all make about as much sense as crosshairs in an ironsights game...
As an advocate of ironsights and the original Author of 'The Ironsight's FAQ' long before ironsights were a part of games and mods, I'm used to resistance to keep arcade foof in 'realism' games that in fact adds absolutely nothing and actually detracts from game-play quality...
I'm confident, that once realism Fans actually get a game to give HUDless play a serious (and equal) go, they'll as fall head-over heels for the absence of space-craft HUD telemetry as they have for ironsights... All it needs is a chance and more understanding as it's equally intuitive and gratifying once you open yourself up to it...
Δ
As far as magic damage buttons, meters, bar-graphs and icons go; it's like the rest of the goof-ball arcade HUD telemetry and as dawdler suggests -- the level of damage or injury you've sustained in this game is casual regardless, it's not like knowing you have 27% life left is going to either dramatically change how you play the game other the by distracting you with unrealistic information.
Perhaps damage skins on the player models (if that's possible) so that a Medic can see that players on their team are a bloody mess and must be healed or they don't have long to do much would add something actually useful and realistic.
But as far as the player's perspective is concerned space craft telemetry for: health, your load-out & ammo count, precise player location in real-time by magical means, precision stamina displays -- all make about as much sense as crosshairs in an ironsights game...
As an advocate of ironsights and the original Author of 'The Ironsight's FAQ' long before ironsights were a part of games and mods, I'm used to resistance to keep arcade foof in 'realism' games that in fact adds absolutely nothing and actually detracts from game-play quality...
I'm confident, that once realism Fans actually get a game to give HUDless play a serious (and equal) go, they'll as fall head-over heels for the absence of space-craft HUD telemetry as they have for ironsights... All it needs is a chance and more understanding as it's equally intuitive and gratifying once you open yourself up to it...
Δ
Last edited by hoak on 2005-12-01 21:47, edited 1 time in total.
-
Happy
- Retired PR Developer
- Posts: 1807
- Joined: 2005-11-07 02:43
That is hilarious.hoak wrote: Health: You're severly fucked up Dude, if you so much as fart yer gonna die!
Proud Killer of 38 Spambots.
After much intense calculation, it has been decided that your thread is already in the forum that you wish to move it to. Deep Thought should be jealous. - Moderator Control Panel
After much intense calculation, it has been decided that your thread is already in the forum that you wish to move it to. Deep Thought should be jealous. - Moderator Control Panel
-
hoak
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 2005-06-23 06:40
One of the fun things about text status messages is you can have the various states read from a simple text file that you can allow people to add random but relevent messages for that state to.
So for example (in one game I worked on) we had three states of damage: light, medium, heavy all read from three sections of a simple ASCII file that people could expand so you never got quite the same message when you were damaged -- some could be enormously context funny or even helpful and people came up with some of the most hilarious messages like "You were just crotch shot; not having a very good day are you?", to the more mundane but helpful "You're casually injured better find or call for a Medic..."
Δ
So for example (in one game I worked on) we had three states of damage: light, medium, heavy all read from three sections of a simple ASCII file that people could expand so you never got quite the same message when you were damaged -- some could be enormously context funny or even helpful and people came up with some of the most hilarious messages like "You were just crotch shot; not having a very good day are you?", to the more mundane but helpful "You're casually injured better find or call for a Medic..."
Δ