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Posted: 2007-09-30 23:19
by pasfreak
maybe...there should be a "retreive kit"
that has a standard assault rifle, a field dressing, and a knife
and thats it
so when ever you kill someone, the kit that they drop is NOT the medic/engie/rifleman/sniper/etc
but the retrieve kit.
IRL, you can take weapons and ammo n stuff from a dead soldier. for pilots behind enemy lines especially, having no kit appear at all would be really bad, and having this limited kit appear would be better overall.
(no insurgents running around with the only l33t sniper rifle or heavy at kit on the map)
Posted: 2007-10-01 00:08
by Juba
Great idea...
Posted: 2007-10-01 00:19
by DavidP
@Pas part of the fun of PR is taking enemy kits, I love taking enemy weapons after i kill them, It's your reward for surviving.
Posted: 2007-10-01 01:03
by AnRK
Terranova wrote:We're talking about a whole different field that the average grunt isn't qualified to do. When entering the USMC, U.S Army and other branches of service, you the option to choose your MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) depending on your ASVAB score.
For all intents and purposes every player on the battlefield is considered a rifleman at best. All the listed requirements are what each player should be capable of doing at any given time.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/enlistedjo2/a/0311.htm
Specialties such as medical and engineering are things that require training in entirely different fields.
Good reference, if infantry soldiers engage in such a wide range of training then surely they should be able to fire an AT or whatever else they may come across. In an ideal world it'd be nice if you could make whoever picks up certain kits suffer a slight penalty in accuracy and such, to emulate that they are not as well trained (like that'd ever happen in BF2 but it'd be nice), but I'd assume light AT systems and the like are designed so any grunt can be given one when required. However when it comes to an intricate knowledge of medicine, it's a very different thing.
I reckon the best idea so far is to make medic kits disappear instantly, and since I have a dislike for the way snipers are employed in game at the moment, it'd be nice if the same happened to them. Doing this would make medics act even more cautiously then they currently do now also, which I think should be encouraged.
Posted: 2007-10-01 07:28
by Raic
I agree, medic kit should not be pickable. Like you said, you kill almost whole squad, execpt one, and he picks medics kit and revives everyone. Even if its pickable, somehow reviving should not be possible, unless you spawned as medic.
Posted: 2007-10-01 08:55
by Outlawz7
Well, then we can just forget about reviving people, as the guy who could previously pick up a medic kit and save his squad, will now just rush on with his sniper/marksman/spec op, while his squad is dead.
Posted: 2007-10-01 10:28
by mammikoura
Juba wrote:The average infantry soldier does not know how to revive a fallen soldier, cuts and stuff yeah but once his heart has stopped they cannot unless they do CPR or something I doubt they would know what half of the stuff in the Medics bag is.
and CPR aint gonna bring you back with 3 to the chest.
once your heart has stopped because of a battlefield injury (so most likely some vital organ being shattered into pieces, or bloodloss) there is very little that a medic can do.
They aren't magicians, they don't bring people back to life just like that. They might be able to do that if they were in a hospital and had all the equipment they need, but in a battlefield.. if you die you are most likely going to stay dead.
Basically a medic is more like a nurse than a doctor. But yeah, he does know a lot more than an average grunt with probably only a few hours of first aid training.
But anyway, I think it's nice that you can get the medics kit. Especially helps out small squads who can't set a rally point. (have the SL as medic so anyone can pick his kit and revive him)
Posted: 2007-10-01 14:46
by Masaq
Guys, you're all missing the point.
Yes, most infantrymen have the basic first aid knowledge to patch up a wound, possibly inject adrenaline. Some are probably able to rig up an IV bag; certainly a medic would be able to replace fluids.
The defib in-game doesn't represent those skills; the defib represents the sucessful extraction of the wounded soldier to a place of safety, their evacuation to a field hospital, their stabilisation and eventual survival.
Ultimately, *any* solider on the battlefield - medic or not - *could* help out a critically wounded mate by getting him to safety and thus starting that process.
Don't forget in PR you're dealing with sides that at most, are around the platoon level at any moment in time - 32 players per side max. The revival system, as it is, helps pretend that there are more troops per side on the field.
If you make it much harder for them to survive, you'd be representing a much higher rate of attrition... If 300 US troops (i.e.: one per ticket on most maps) were actually dying at each skirmish over "abandoned cities" (EJOD) and "railway yards" (Op Pheonix), then we'd've pulled out of the Mid East a long long time ago
Posted: 2007-10-01 21:26
by AnRK
Fair point Masaq. Does anyone know if Outlawz has ever been optimistic about anything ever?
Posted: 2007-10-01 22:14
by Juba
If more people played the Medic class you would not have a problem if one of your squad mates is killed.
Posted: 2007-10-01 22:18
by DavidP
I see where this is going. Please for the love of god dont make medic kit requestable! I know it requires special training but please keep it spawnable! I'd rather save my requests for something else when needed by my squad.
Posted: 2007-10-01 22:28
by [T]Terranova7
[R-MOD]Masaq wrote:Guys, you're all missing the point.
Yes, most infantrymen have the basic first aid knowledge to patch up a wound, possibly inject adrenaline. Some are probably able to rig up an IV bag; certainly a medic would be able to replace fluids.
The defib in-game doesn't represent those skills; the defib represents the sucessful extraction of the wounded soldier to a place of safety, their evacuation to a field hospital, their stabilisation and eventual survival.
Ultimately, *any* solider on the battlefield - medic or not - *could* help out a critically wounded mate by getting him to safety and thus starting that process.
Don't forget in PR you're dealing with sides that at most, are around the platoon level at any moment in time - 32 players per side max. The revival system, as it is, helps pretend that there are more troops per side on the field.
If you make it much harder for them to survive, you'd be representing a much higher rate of attrition... If 300 US troops (i.e.: one per ticket on most maps) were actually dying at each skirmish over "abandoned cities" (EJOD) and "railway yards" (Op Pheonix), then we'd've pulled out of the Mid East a long long time ago
With that line of thinking you may as well give every kit debifs. As I see no reason why I should have to change my kit so that I can simply "pickup" a fellow wounded comrade.
In my opinion, the medic simply represents a specialty that has a unique capability. I'd personally rather see the medic limited, but made a lot more powerful with an ability to earn tickets for his/her team by making consecutive revivals. Would really force players to play more conservative, and medics focused on playing medic, not attacking the next flag.
If anything, the maps themselves represent much larger battles. That's what the tickets are for. Take Kashan for instance, we're probably talking about battalions going at it over that region, not merely a platoon v.s platoon engagement. Though unfortunately we can't simulate that due to player count limits.
Posted: 2007-10-01 23:59
by nicoX
Reviving itself is unrealistic, if you're dead your dead. Picking up others kits is realistic. If a medic is downed and a soldiers need medical attention sure his mates is gonna pick up the medics kit to see what can be useful.
Instead make reviving more advanced. If you get headshot you shouldn't be able to be revived, and it should depend on how many bullets you have taken to find out if it's a chance you can live with medical reviving attention. As you're not dead the aslong you can be revived, so we say you are critical or unconscious.
Posted: 2007-10-02 05:53
by OkitaMakoto
I have the idea that if a medic goes down, its often hard enough to get to him, get his kit, get out paddles, and then revive. To me, thats kinda like in saving private ryan(sorry for the movie reference) when the Medic gets shot and they try to save him. I just imagine it as the person giving the medic basic first aid to keep him alive. While this is represented using shock paddles, i really dont mind.
But, I really dont care.
*edit*
to the above poster, you CANT be revived after a headshot currently. Bee that way for a bit I think... so we're half there!
Posted: 2007-10-02 11:29
by Anxiety
Okay guys , from what i tell you all have the right ideas in mind , we're many believe that this game is not a reality simulator ( and they are right ) we have to take into account that this mods aim is to be as realistic as it can be , now being revived is not realistic but giving medical attention is so here is my "idea " i can almost garentee you will spam me but meh
1) make it so getting to 0 health does not kill you it incapacitates you , make it so when you hit (-50) you die , once you hit -50 you can not be revived , also we could change the spawn times to be slightly lower ,
2) make it so when you hit 0 your not dead and do not need reviving , but if the person throws a bandage on you and you get to above 0 then you are "alive" then they must heal you ? , when you get to (-30) you should have to get de fribed .
3)head shots should = a death with no chance of revival and if you get shot - at all- you should loose a very large amount of run ?
They are just ideas, and i know they will probably been seen by someone as bad , but its just a suggestion .
feel free to add input?
Anxiety
Posted: 2007-10-02 14:12
by Juba
[R-MOD]OkitaMakoto wrote:I have the idea that if a medic goes down, its often hard enough to get to him, get his kit, get out paddles, and then revive. To me, thats kinda like in saving private ryan(sorry for the movie reference) when the Medic gets shot and they try to save him. I just imagine it as the person giving the medic basic first aid to keep him alive. While this is represented using shock paddles, i really dont mind.
But, I really dont care.
*edit*
to the above poster, you CANT be revived after a headshot currently. Bee that way for a bit I think... so we're half there!
You see in Saving Private Ryan they had no clue what to do to the guy except pump him full of morphene.
Posted: 2007-10-02 14:30
by OkitaMakoto
I think you missed my point though. my point was that the time it takes you to even get to his kit and get to the defibs without dying, to me, just simulates you not having a clue and many times they die before you can do anything.
Of course the soldier wont know everything about medicing, but i think its fine as it is. But, like i said, I wouldnt mind it being taken out.
Like many have said too, defibing in battle is unrealistic as it is, and i think the DEVs have said that the reason it stays is for gameplay value, not necessarily out of realism.
Ehh, Whatver though, it'd be intereseting to see it in game, even no defibs
but thatd get old fast
Posted: 2007-10-02 17:57
by Juba
The Medic Kit is fine its just a non medic player picking up the kit off another soldier and reviving an entire squad is lame.
Posted: 2007-10-02 18:40
by OkitaMakoto
Juba wrote:The Medic Kit is fine its just a non medic player picking up the kit off another soldier and reviving an entire squad is lame.
If thats what you are all wanting, im sure itd be similar to not allowing civilians to pick up kits. just make the player auto die when picking up medics kit? But then if there was a pile of kits, you might accidentally get the medic one and die and thatd be annoying.
Or, you could just have the medic kits disappear right away like the civilian kits do?
I dont really think this should be done though. I think the few things that simulate more troops and keep more men on the front is ok, as long as it isnt absolutely ridiculous... and I dont think this is ridiculous(picking up medic kit and using it on the downed ex-medic)
Posted: 2007-10-02 19:03
by MrD
If this was a valid issue, then maybe someone could code something in.
ie. Any kit you pick up has no ammo till you reload it.
If that global coding could be created then obviously there would have to be a slight exception :
a kit with a standard rifle would have one clip in it. A sniper/HAT kit would have one clip in the pistol. A medic kit would have one clip in the rifle but no defib charges or bandages. No kit picked up would have any bandages left over.
The main aspect of reducing medics kit to zero or inability to pick bandages off kits by picking them up could very well make people respect the life of their character and force squads to ensure they have medics first, people requesting sniper kits as a last thought!