Tanks: Destroyed or Damaged?

[Death_dx]

I'm in full agreement with Ghost, I hate having vehicles just explode into a husk and killing all the occupants for no apparent reason.

[Sadist_Cain]

Ref to merlin crash landing...

I was flying on Basrah in 0.6 and we got hit by an RPG, I totally lost control and the chopper listed violently to the left, All I remember seeing was ground...

The chopper crashed into a destructable house and crushed it, I died on impact some of the crew survived most importantly the medic who set about healing everyone...

Land rover came in and gave supporting fire as the insurgents crawled out of the wood work towards the downed chopper. everyone started throwing smoke.

After respawn and getting a pilot kit another landy with 2 engineers in picked me up.
Molotovs being thrown at us, 50. cals blaring we got it repaired and managed to take off with a full crew

Later we got obliterated by 2 RPGs but you see my point lol...

Heeey, can we make 2 RPGs cause the chopper to fall out of the sky? maybe set it burning so if no one gets to it quick enough it'll explode

[Rudd]

Ref to merlin crash landing...

I was flying on Basrah in 0.6 and we got hit by an RPG, I totally lost control and the chopper listed violently to the left, All I remember seeing was ground...

The chopper crashed into a destructable house and crushed it, I died on impact some of the crew survived most importantly the medic who set about healing everyone...

Land rover came in and gave supporting fire as the insurgents crawled out of the wood work towards the downed chopper. everyone started throwing smoke.

Aw man! my games are never so cool lol.

Next person this happens to must have fraps ON!

[LeadMagnet]

1st point I can agree on but on the 2nd you're clearly out to lunch. Yes in real life tanks can "popcorn" when hit by a sabot round cooking off their internal ammo storage. I've seen it's effects during Desert Storm. We found one turret of an Iraqi MBT 20-30 metres from the wreck where it came to land after suffering a hit from an Abrahms.

My biggest beef with the current MBT's in game is that it takes 2 hits to destroy an apc let alone another tank. Rarely would a tank have to re-engage in real life baring a miss. Added to that the seeming deviation involved with a laser-ranged and targeting computer weapon system I'd say they're actually nerfed in comparison to their rl counterparts enough.

[Sadist_Cain]

1st point I can agree on but on the 2nd you're clearly out to lunch. Yes in real life tanks can "popcorn" when hit by a sabot round cooking off their internal ammo storage. I've seen it's effects during Desert Storm. We found one turret of an Iraqi MBT 20-30 metres from the wreck where it came to land after suffering a hit from an Abrahms. .

Im confused :S I know irl a tanks ammo can be hit and it'll fizzle and explode inside but can't that be repaired? at least when the tank is hauled back to base, hence the idea of longer repair times + repair posts.

It seems to make sense that it should take a lot of hits from another tank to cause an enemie's tank to be destroyed beyond repair (in the game engine) and yet still have hits from larger weapons e.g. hellfires and such annihilate a tank.

How big are sabots arent they about 3cm wide?. anyhow we'd see more flaming and banging of the ammo and such before *poof* exploded tank model appears in front of us.

The crew aren't going to survive anywhere near as long as the tank can so where's the problem here :S they wont be rolling around the battlefield for ages.
aswell where the tank would usually just go *poof* dead model... its going to be a *poof* flaming tank wreck with knocked off tracks a totalled interior and shattered turret ring bearings needing repair from the engineers (of course for months irl but bah... ) until it's ready for action again, even then it still needs a new crew...

Anyhow having tanks catch fire could mean after the same amount of hits it takes for the crew to die the tank could be burning, therefore a ticking clock for how long you can get repairs on it.

All of these suggestions need the tank to be stronger on a hit point level, it stays the same on an operational level like it is now except the chance to repair and resume an old one (dead crew!) would be greater.
If the tanks HP stays the same there's no point, they'll explode exactly the same as they do now.

[Deadmonkiefart]

A tank that has been damaged enough to let the crew be killed is too damaged to be fixed during a battle.

[BloodBane611]

I agree about the engineer truck. Nerf the wrench and put back in the repair trucks, meaning engineer squads will be well served taking these. I think it's a great idea.

it's the flakes of armour inside that shatter off and do damage to the sensitive equipment and bodies of the crew inside.

Most main battle tanks (and most armored vehicles) are equipped with anti-spalling "liners" that are intended to keep all those sharp bits from flying around. Also, since most countries have the Sabot round, it does not in fact create little sharp bits, but is a very large pointy object moving very fast. That's generally good enough.

Using Sabot the main goal is to destroy primary systems or kill the crew. Sabots are kinetic energy weapons, but if you put a hole in ammo, engine, or any of the mechanical/electronic systems that control the vehicle, it's basically going to be dead. So 3 sabot rounds really should be the max.

This is just a way so we dont have endless streams of single tanks driving to face isolation on the battlefield. Tanks will be more of a cohesive unit thatll be valued by the team as they get moving

The reason they die right now is because people do not use them together, or repair them when necessary. This would be an ineffective way of forcing players to work together, because they will simply go off on there own as they already do. Better to play with people you know will get the job done.


Overall, I'm just not a fan of more disabled vehicles. While it is more realistic, the tank respawn system could easily be understood to simulate this already, and in pub play it will mostly end up with many more vehicles that don't get used, an even bigger lack of tranport, and overall confusion.

[+SiN+headhunter]

Very good idea.
I hope someone takes the Repair station idea
and builds a repair post that spawns a engineer truck

[agentscar]

Just gonna say something real quick.Don't bring back repair jeeps.And,I hate how the crewman don't have a wrench.Armored vehicle crewmen in real life are trained to fix their vehicles to a certain extent.I think,the crewmen kit should have a wrench again,but to where you can only repair like half-way or something.Becuase people that are engineers just never come.Or don't want to be a teamplayer.

[Sadist_Cain]

Just gonna say something real quick.Don't bring back repair jeeps.And,I hate how the crewman don't have a wrench.Armored vehicle crewmen in real life are trained to fix their vehicles to a certain extent.I think,the crewmen kit should have a wrench again,but to where you can only repair like half-way or something.Becuase people that are engineers just never come.Or don't want to be a teamplayer.

and crewmen driving around the battlefield alone constantly fixing their tanks by themselves are teamplayers?

[Rudd]

and crewmen driving around the battlefield alone constantly fixing their tanks by themselves are teamplayers?

He got you there agent

[Sadist_Cain]

Any Devos wanna give us a word on this, I gave you an extra "o"

[agentscar]

To Sadist:

Well,when those that don't want to be teamplayers (engineers),are the ones that can fix you,you must do it yourself.

And,Those crewmen could repair other tanks if they wish.

[mammikoura]

Realism sir?

"Only a small number of tanks were seriously damaged, most of them have already been returned to units after the recovery," said a senior IDF officer.

which anti-tank missiles would those be?
Sure the tank isn't going to be destroyed if you shoot at it with an rpg-7. A hit to a good spot will probably do some minor damage, like what was described in that article. And this would be the kinda stuff that you could repair.

Then you have anti-tank weapons that aren't like 50 years old.
For example the tow.

Current versions are capable of penetrating more than 30 inches of armor, or "any 1990s tank," at a maximum range of more than 3,000 meters.

M-220 Tube-launched, Optically tracked, Wire-guided missile (TOW)

and as far as I know when you get hit by one of those that's it. The tank is kaput and everyone can have a great time trying to figure out which body part belongs to which crewman.

I'm all for making tanks get disabled faster but they can't be made into super killing machines which are almost impossible to destroy.

[Sadist_Cain]

To Sadist:

Well,when those that don't want to be teamplayers (engineers),are the ones that can fix you,you must do it yourself.

And,Those crewmen could repair other tanks if they wish.

the idea is without teamwork the game is doomed to fail

TANKS DO NOT BECOME ENDLESS KILLING MACHINES WITH INFINATE ARMOUR... READ BELOW

Noone here quite gets the idea of tripling the HIT POINTS on a tank this will have nothing to do with how effectively a tank is "destroyed" the crew will be dead + leaving a crippled tank behind LONG before the tank goes *poof* Im a destroyed decoration now"

Some tweaking could have H-AT, LGBs/LGMs and such things destroying tanks in one go.
HOWEVER when firing at a tank with RPGs or using another tank at range it will no longer be a case of fire XX amounts of hit to destroy the tank (2 hits in nearly any case)

INSTEAD after XX hits the crew will be bleeding, after roughly the same amount of XX hits the tank could begin to become disabled.

Lets put it simply this way, well use being hit by another tank as an example...

Right now...

weak areas
XX hits = tank destroyed (christmas tree decoation)

stronger areas
XXhits = small chance of tank being disabled, tank normally destroyed in a few hits

My Ideas...

Greatly increased repair times

repair truck that only helps by speeding up engineer repair times

Deployable repair posts that aid repairs and spawn engineer trucks

weaker areas

XX hits = Tank severly damaged, systems disabled, Tank might catch on fire, crew might bleed (fine line with damage)

XX hits = crew bleeding very badly (Seconds till death) tank catches fire, tank keeps on becoming slowly damaged as it burns

***Tank Destroyed***

XX more Hits = tank destroyed (christmas tree decoration) simulate hitting fuel or the ammo maybe? bad move, now it can respawn and you wasted you ammo on a wrecked tank that your team could have "salvaged".

You have a better chance of totally destroying a tank (decoration) hitting certain weak spots, simulate hitting ammo, fuel etc.

stronger areas

XX Hits (1 hit?) = Tank severly damaged, get repairs, (close to the line where it becomes disabled)

XX more hits (2 maybe?) = Tank disabled, unable to fight, still repairable after a long time (that needs teamwork) a fine line for where the crew starts to bleed and the tank catches fire

XX hits = Tank severly damaged, more systems disabled, Tank on fire, Crew are seconds from death or if they were already bleeding theyre probably dead already

***Tank is effectively destroyed at this point***

XX more hits = crew dead, tank becoming much more severly damaged, less chance of repairing it now, repair times getting stupidly longer with each hit.
Bear in mind the tank is burning so as time goes on you have less and less chance of realistically salvaging it from the battlefield

XX lotsa hits = Tank pops, totally useless and destroyed (christmas tree)
idiot enemy for wasting his ammo on a wrecked tank carcass also benefits the team because the tank now repsawns.
a clever team will destroy their own tanks thatthey know cannot be salvaged, thus causing them to respawn quicker


Thinking in more detail spawning in waves wouldn't work quite so well with what I've suggested above ^^^
The examples used depict tank vs tank, more tweaking should see RPGs being useless to explode a tank (decoration) H-ATs destroying in one goes LGms destroying in one go etc etc

If you suspect the tank is beyond repair, destroy it! so the "enemy" dosn't get their hands on it

you want to keep those tanks active then repair them, work together. no more "oh no the tank exploded" ahh its ok youll get another one in 15 minutes.
Much more people having to rely on OTHER people for their repairs, health and generally to keep on fighting... teamwork I think it's called.

needs a bit of editing *gets crowbar* but OPEN your minds and you'll see what I mean.

The tank dosn't have to become a battlefield decoration to be effectively destroyed.

Many tanks are irrepairable on the battlefield due to time constraints and the threat of enemy fire. If you have time and enough engineers maybe you can do a full turret swap best though to destroy it for a respawn.

With teamwork we should see more incidents where tanks are left crippled on the battlefield, injured crewmen needing medical attention and damaged tracks needing refitting.
The job is too big for billy no mates so best get a pair of engineers and truck to repair us.

Do you NOW see my point? there'll be little difference between how many hits itll take to destroy a tank (effectively) but a lot off difference between how it looks at this time.

boosting of the HIT POINTS (not the point of the tank being unusable and therefore destroyed) will make it so that RPGs won't make tanks spontaniously combust, mines will be more likely to damage systems, injure crew and knock tracks off instead of just *pop* destroying a tank.

More realistic repair times AND repair oppurtunities (check figures of destroyed tanks vs repairable tanks, they dont lie)

The most obvious benefit is now the use and availability of armour entirely in the teams hands. Much like 0.7 has made Rallypoints entirely the teams decision this system makes whether armour is used or not up to the team.

You'll have to work together to destroy your own wrecks so the enemy can't get to them (well really it's so so that they respawn but you get the idea...)

Go solo in a vehicle and soon there wont be any left. there'll be a scattering of vehicle wrecks all over the map where you kept dying.

Work together with medics and repair crews, set up decent outposts with repair vehicles
and you'll reap the benefits of running an effective tank

I love how 0.7 took out officer spawning, I think something similar like this needs doing to effect armour and air units. (pilots need to be more valuble when shot down... ever seen extraction smoke used to actually extract a downed pilot?... exactly that's for another thread )

NOW do folk get it?

[Sabre_tooth_tigger]

People used to complain about the HAT kits being captured by the enemy. It seems this idea might cause the same to happen with tanks.

Capturing a tank and removing it from the enemys spawn for the rest of the game would become a bit too easy and over powerfull as a tactic?

I did like the 0.5 thing where vehicles were seen damaged more often

[Sadist_Cain]

Read a bit carefully mate, I dont mention anything about making tanks able to be captured.
Merely stating that irl tanks are captured for intel etc.
So to simulate this threat, you'll have to destroy your own tank if it cannot be repaired otherwise itll just sit out there on the battlefield useless...

so you'll either have to destroy it so "the enemy won't get their hands on it" (REALLY so it can repspawn again) or work together to repair it, either way youve got to be coordinated

Cheers for the input though I think we're on the same page of just needing more of a connection between engineers and armour laong with some damage tweaking to see more + repairable "wrecks" and adjust what gives complete instantaneous total destruction

[101 bassdrive]

I cant really comment on the tenacity of the tanks youd like to give them because I have no idea of it being realistic.

repair posts sound good, you retreat early enough to get fixed up again, since otherwise your tracks would be disabled etc.. but dont we already have the command post for this?
and I miss the support jeeps aswell, they were cool, specially the MEC one.

about your suggestion with tanks barely blowing up and going into badlymessed up state.. I dont think thats a good idea.
while I believe I understand you, you dont seem to think about how gameplay would turn out.
the team with upper hand would be forced "not" to kill tanks, because otherwise it would spawn for the weaker team. only getting those hurt tanks behind your team and the frontline would effectivily force them out of respawn cycle.
it kinda equals weaker team= more reinforcement= no advantage. unless the teams are so massively uneven they can gain territory at high pace and get the tanks out of cycle.
theres no decisive factor to it. either it increases imbalance when the differences are already noticeable or it annihilates them by the weaker team gettin constant reinforcements ( for whatever RL reason that could be)

[Sadist_Cain]

I dont quite get you on how the weaker team would be getting constant reinforcements :S

A tank thats been hit a few times is going to be so badly damaged repairing it won't be worth the effort.

Plus the enemy shooting the tank will know (itll catch fire + its obvious) that after a few hits the crew of that tank is dead and the tank is useless, a single extra hit could render that tank irrepairable (unless the enemy has a loooooot of time) so it'll need destroying to respawn.

what kinda enemy is gonna waste his ammo on a "destroyed" tank?

A weaker team would lose because they aren't going to pull together to destroy the tanks too badly damaged to repair so they get to respawn.

Nor will they have the teamwork help each other to get several engineers + new crewmen to repair a damaged tank and get it back to a repair post so the engineers (not a fix-me-qik repair post) can fix the rest of the tanks damaged systems to get it back into battle.

I'm not fussed particularly about gameplay and balance etc tis Project Reality not Project Happy Fun Time and anything that results in a team full of soloers being annhilated by a coordinated tactical effort is good

Edit: I sorta see your point reference to LGMs and LGBs along with H-AT destroying tanks in one (therefore starting the respawn timer for another) but I think that it still takes a tank out of battle, it gives some leniancy to give reinforcements and it'll get infantry aircraft and armour to work together more to coordinate attacks on vehicles.

Anyhow that can all be tweaked

[Death_dx]

This is definitely one of, if not the best suggestion I've seen on here. We need it applied to all vehicles though. As for what you said bassdrive if one team isn't working together well, ie destroying/repairing their wrecked tanks then they should be losing the game.

The only thing missing I can think of is that depending on how the hitpoints are tweaked the specops may need a new explosive (since the engy kit is full) to destroy the too heavily damaged tanks.