Aircraft suggestions (PR and plane whores)

[Bossgator]

I posted these insights in another thread, but seems more appropriate here

As seen by the comments and suggestions, it is obvious changes are in order for the jets and helos. The idea of individual kits for each is a good idea, as well as limiting the number of kits to the number of aircraft in the map. In reality, only pilots fly anyways, so why should other "kits" be able to? Like wise, why should a jet kit be able to drive a tank? Sure a buggy, or Hummer, but not any heavy armour.

Though the "waiting" for a seat is a major issue, I feel the real one is with how the jets operate in the first place, particularly the missles. My job when I was in the US Navy was as a technition on a flight simulator for the F-4 and F-14 at NAS Oceana in Virginia Beach, VA. It was an "ACM", Air Combat Manuvering simulator. It was "dogfight" training.

Since we had to know how to fly in order to do pre and post training checks, I can tell you from first hand experience how the Sidewinder, Sparrow, and Phoenix missles behave. I assure you, its nothing like the way BF2 is!!!

Bottom line, BF2 is a complete joke when it comes to using the missles. Obviously there are those that fly in BF2 that have learned how to best use the craft as they are designed in the game, but they are not flying in "reality".

In reality, if you get from say 4-7 oclock on a bogey, and you get a "lock" with a Sidewinder inside of say 5 miles, chances are extremely good your gonna splash 'em. It takes a very good pilot that knows what they are doing to avoid getting hit by a heat-seeking missle. This business of having to fire all your missles is ridiculous. So long as you maintain position, one, maybe two is all you will need for a kill, and they do not veer off all on their own either.

Now, with the radar-guided ones like the Sparrow and Phoenix, its a different ballgame entirely. These types maintain lock by "wire", in that you need to maintain your nose in the direction of the target till almost the time of impact. Much more difficult than the Sidewinder. Range for the Phoenix is up to 120 miles, though the Sparrow is somewhere around half that if I remember correctly. These missles can lock and track bogeys that are out of sight, and since the distance is far greater, actually keeping your nose on the target is not that hard. As a result of how they track, the difficulty is in firing in such a way as to reduce the bogeys ability to avoid impact. Definately an artform!

For BF2, the Sidewinder is the more appropriate type missle, due to the really small air arena. In reality, you can fire them at very short range and break away if you want, because they track the heat signature.

How can the physics be "tweeked" to more accurately reflect reality, I dont know, seeing I'm no coder, but it definately is needed. And dont get me started on the guns! Just let me say that those guns in reality are far more damaging than what BF2 has them! If your good enough to strafe a bogey with your guns, you will get the kill! These planes just cant take the kind of damage they do in BF2. The only plane I know of that can is the Warthog.

One other aspect that has bothered me is the after burners. In reality, you can run full throttle for as long as you have fuel. Jet turbines will not "overheat" like they do in BF2. In fact, turbines are actually "governed", meaning they wont run up to their full power potential. The air frames just couldnt handle the stress. Which also leads me to stress, or more specifically, g forces. Reality would dictate that "pulling g's" should be implemented, along with "gray out". I think we all agree there is no way in hell a pilot can be flying at mach one, and suddenly make a hard pull turn without going in to gray out! The laws of physics just wont allow it. Again, how to incorporate that I dont know.

Thats my 2 cents!

[Zepheris Casull]

it might be possible to add the redding and black out effect, i mean technically we have thoose bloody frames that appears when we take wounds, a modified version of that perhaps?? or modified flashbang effect??

if they can implement that and with the improved cockpit view i mentioned in the other thread, then i would be one happy flight jockey wannabe.

hmm funny though, i thought linebacker was deemed ineffective at engaging fighter jets due to it's poor fire rate in real life. but i agree that if it did managed to score a hit on a jet, that jet would be in one serious world of hurt.

oh, and if we're gonna tweak the vulcan on the US planes closer to the real one, then can the phalanx get the same treatment??? <(^o^)>

[Rozjebca]

The worst thing is when airplane hunting single soliders, it meake me sick. heli is ok when do this, but for example f18 it is so stupid. Most stupid in may opinion is when i get hit by 4x250Kg bombs!!

[BrokenArrow]

It's annoying when they hunt anything. Airplanes should stay really high up (except tank-hunters) and deal with eachother, they have fun while the ground pounders have fun as well.

[Rhino]

I posted these insights in another thread, but seems more appropriate here

As seen by the comments and suggestions, it is obvious changes are in order for the jets and helos. The idea of individual kits for each is a good idea, as well as limiting the number of kits to the number of aircraft in the map. In reality, only pilots fly anyways, so why should other "kits" be able to? Like wise, why should a jet kit be able to drive a tank? Sure a buggy, or Hummer, but not any heavy armour.

Though the "waiting" for a seat is a major issue, I feel the real one is with how the jets operate in the first place, particularly the missles. My job when I was in the US Navy was as a technition on a flight simulator for the F-4 and F-14 at NAS Oceana in Virginia Beach, VA. It was an "ACM", Air Combat Manuvering simulator. It was "dogfight" training.

Since we had to know how to fly in order to do pre and post training checks, I can tell you from first hand experience how the Sidewinder, Sparrow, and Phoenix missles behave. I assure you, its nothing like the way BF2 is!!!

Bottom line, BF2 is a complete joke when it comes to using the missles. Obviously there are those that fly in BF2 that have learned how to best use the craft as they are designed in the game, but they are not flying in "reality".

In reality, if you get from say 4-7 oclock on a bogey, and you get a "lock" with a Sidewinder inside of say 5 miles, chances are extremely good your gonna splash 'em. It takes a very good pilot that knows what they are doing to avoid getting hit by a heat-seeking missle. This business of having to fire all your missles is ridiculous. So long as you maintain position, one, maybe two is all you will need for a kill, and they do not veer off all on their own either.

Now, with the radar-guided ones like the Sparrow and Phoenix, its a different ballgame entirely. These types maintain lock by "wire", in that you need to maintain your nose in the direction of the target till almost the time of impact. Much more difficult than the Sidewinder. Range for the Phoenix is up to 120 miles, though the Sparrow is somewhere around half that if I remember correctly. These missles can lock and track bogeys that are out of sight, and since the distance is far greater, actually keeping your nose on the target is not that hard. As a result of how they track, the difficulty is in firing in such a way as to reduce the bogeys ability to avoid impact. Definately an artform!

For BF2, the Sidewinder is the more appropriate type missle, due to the really small air arena. In reality, you can fire them at very short range and break away if you want, because they track the heat signature.

How can the physics be "tweeked" to more accurately reflect reality, I dont know, seeing I'm no coder, but it definately is needed. And dont get me started on the guns! Just let me say that those guns in reality are far more damaging than what BF2 has them! If your good enough to strafe a bogey with your guns, you will get the kill! These planes just cant take the kind of damage they do in BF2. The only plane I know of that can is the Warthog.

One other aspect that has bothered me is the after burners. In reality, you can run full throttle for as long as you have fuel. Jet turbines will not "overheat" like they do in BF2. In fact, turbines are actually "governed", meaning they wont run up to their full power potential. The air frames just couldnt handle the stress. Which also leads me to stress, or more specifically, g forces. Reality would dictate that "pulling g's" should be implemented, along with "gray out". I think we all agree there is no way in hell a pilot can be flying at mach one, and suddenly make a hard pull turn without going in to gray out! The laws of physics just wont allow it. Again, how to incorporate that I dont know.

Thats my 2 cents!

Nice comments, i agree with everything above

[Hitperson]

the problem is munitions the in game JSf gets JDAM GPS INS Guided Bombs in real life these are utilesed for taking out Hardend and Soft buildings as they are NON tracking bombs In game they are just dumb bombs witch make them hard to aim (unless you are a plane pro) a more idea munition would be a JSOW or "Smart pig" as it is also known these explosives are a pod that drops from the plane. next miniture wings fold from the fusalage of the pod and it is guided along next it drops a number of explosives I.E 4 IR skeets but the bomb can also drop 20+ explosives.

The JSOWs primary role is to take out vehicles that is all nothing else this bomb should have been in the game instead of the JDAM.


Also Aim-120 AMRAAM "slammer" is a GPS INS guided long range AAM is now in universal service with the USAF.



Hope i helped.

[Rhino]

also, as we are on the topic of the JSF. 1 main part which i hate about the JSF it has no "air brakes" ingame as the VTOL has cancled it out as when you put your throttle to - on a J-10 or anouther plane without VTOL in BF2 the air brakes kick in and it slows down really fast. The JSF on the other hand when you put it into - the VTOL kicks in and dosent slow down as fast as the other planes. This puts it at a huge disacvantage as if you are fighting a j-10 he can easily make the JSF over shoot as even if he dose relize he has put his brakes on he cant do much about it apart from brake off and go for anouther run. If a plane is on your *** and you truy to get him to over shoot with the JSF there aint much hope as if the J-10 pilot is gd, he will see your plane go into VTOL mode (if you put it that much back) or just see your plane start to slow and as soon as he sees that he can use his brakes to slow much fast than the JSF can and then mini gun or missle the guy down with grate ease at that speed.

If you can put the VTOL onto anouther key or somthing and then put the airbraikes onto the - arear it would be much better
Also the VTOL bit in BF2 is really **** as if you use it, you are a sittign duck in combat. Its really only used in a non combat situation when landing or takeoff.

[Resjah]

Also Aim-120 AMRAAM "slammer" is a GPS INS guided long range AAM is now in universal service with the USAF.



Hope i helped.

putting the AIM-120 in the game would be overkill for A-A engagements, with this missiles range of 45 nauticalmiles you would be able to lock on to an enemy plane and shoot it down from across the map

The AIM-9 sidewinder is the perfect missile for the game, and it is already in the game, i just wish they would make the missile more accurate as they are in RL

[Hitperson]

probably more than the map JSOW would be nice

[dawdler]

putting the AIM-120 in the game would be overkill for A-A engagements, with this missiles range of 45 nauticalmiles you would be able to lock on to an enemy plane and shoot it down from across the map

Technically you would be able to lock in the Kubra Dam sector and shoot it down over Zatar Wetlands.

But yeah, it would be a little overkill.

Sidenote: It would be pretty cool if flying above a certain altitude meant fog would clear, terrain would go really low detail (and increase alot in size) and you would get a new layer of minimap with unique flags (aerial capture). When you capture, the people on the ground would hear stuff like "USMC has gained air superiority!" and enable supply drops or something. That should keep the nasty planes off the ground.

Impossible to code in BF2, but hey that's what dreaming is for

[angus]

I had just seen a modified missile by one our members "Why?!". I hadn't seen a topic on them here, just a link to a topic he authored on TotalBF. http://www.totalbf2.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36102

Surely missiles coded with this tracking ability would keep the aircraft off the backs of the ground forces. Or would this upset balance as being too much vs helicopters. Helis would really have to hide behind every molehill and building to have a chance. Depending on the effect of flares on the missile.

Has there been any discussion with him about adding this to PR?

[BrokenArrow]

I believe it has been brought up before.

You bring up a good point about how it would destroy helos very quickly. It seems to me that unless planes stick to fighting eachother it is far to easy for them to run a map.

[Why?!]

I'm telling you, if anyone on PRMM lets me mess with the missile code I gurantee that I can make missiles so realistic everyone will hate them.

Great comments above, especially the ones from Bossgator and his service in the Navy.

I actually did at one time model and code in an AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. A realistic targeting is just plain impossible in BF2, so what I did was make it so that AMRAAM required a solid one second lock directly in the target box. I also shortened the range of the Sidewinder and made locking take only half a second. It turned out pretty cool, but the AMRAAM still was a little too long range, but that could be easily fixed.

[Edit] Lol looks like angus beat me to it.

I also want to mention that what I did had only minor effect on helicopters (actually I'm not sure it even was different), so helicopters would have the same resistance against missiles as they do now. But as someone else earlier said the primary anti-air weapon is any tanks main cannon. I have shot down many helicopters, and planes when I had the chance, using only the main cannon.

Another silly sidenote and fairly useless fact: The speedbrake that you see on the MiG-29, F-15E, etc. are only visual. They actually do nothing at all. The only reason that those aircraft can slow down is because their engine actually goes from 100%, to 0%, then to -100% causing them to slow down.

I had just seen a modified missile by one our members "Why?!". I hadn't seen a topic on them here, just a link to a topic he authored on TotalBF. http://www.totalbf2.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36102

Surely missiles coded with this tracking ability would keep the aircraft off the backs of the ground forces. Or would this upset balance as being too much vs helicopters. Helis would really have to hide behind every molehill and building to have a chance. Depending on the effect of flares on the missile.

Has there been any discussion with him about adding this to PR?

[Even more Edits] I swear, everytime I post I spend half an hour editing, fixing,, and adding stuff

Someone else also mentioned that planes are too dominant. Another way to fix this is to make the fighter craft dedicated fighters. Even though this is a little unrealistic seeing as modern fighter craft are also excellent ground pounders, still forcing fighters into the fighter role by removing the bombs would even it out a little bit.

[Szarko]

Why?! those videos on that forum look very nice... I like the fact that they keep on tracking... perhaps PRMM team can incorporate this into ito PRMM?

[angus]

Why?!, those missiles track like a rabid bloodhound. How are they affected by flares? Are they something a good pilot with curent or modified flares evade?
As mentioned, if this missile code were applied to SAMs, helicopters would have real problems. Any ideas how to help balance with out a nerf warhead or low ammo count?

Any news on the air to air mod you had mentioned?

[Martini]

I think this idea is worth trying.

I think the jets are currently great for air to air combat and surpressing enemy bombers. It does seem as though with the map size that for bombers its like fish in a barrel. In terms of seekinga realistic battlefield, with the scale of the maps, etc. --> really jets just don't fit in the space we have to play in. But they are fun, so what to do.

Well maybe the jets can do their air to air thing as is, but only make accurate bombing attacks when a target is painted by a ground unit. This way infantry and airmen must work together. Maybe the A/T kit could have a laser disignating device, would make sense to go with that kit I think.

Anyway, I don't know if its even possible to code something like that, but there must be a way to generate a simalar system, fog of war at low alt? I dunno, but I think something like that will work.

[BrokenArrow]

The problem with the jets now is that they're only fun when you're in them, and when you're on they ground they come close to ruining the ground battle.

[Resjah]

BrokenArrow']The problem with the jets now is that they're only fun when you're in them, and when you're on they ground they come close to ruining the ground battle.

Oh come now, its not that much of a problem when planes are in the air and you are on the ground, most pilots arent very good so its not like you have much to worry about, but when you do run into a good pilot, like when i fly , thats when things can be a little hectic on the ground

[Martini]

Maybe thats where some team involvement would come in handy.

Your AT for your squad. Your down to one shot, hmmm two tanks.
PAINT-EM!!

Then watch in anticipation as your fellow bomber from above drops his payload on your target. Lots of fun IMO

it really comes down to the speed at which the jet can move vs. the size of the maps. In real life a 50 million dollar jet carrying $300,000 a peice bomb, isn't going to take the time to bomb a jeep. But on our battle field its so easy to reload and there are so many targets in the small area, why not?

The easiest thing to do is slow down the jets, but thats not very realistic. experimenting with the field of veiw on the jets when at certain altitudes is more along the lines of a solution. Similar to the UAV, jet pilots would only be able to see targets that infantry 'paint' for them.

Is this possible?

[Resjah]

it is possible, in the media section there is a skinned model of a laser designator, but the part with aircraft only being able to see targets painted isnt realistic, jets in RL do have radar that can scan the ground for possible targets, like a bridge or tank for example.

But the help of painted targets would also be cool.

I would also like to see some F-16s in the game performing some wild weasel missions with their HARM missiles to take out AA but then the ground pounders would be truely defenseless

Also, i plane would bomb a jeep if they were given permission too, of course a laser guided or GPS guided bomb wouldnt be used, the ones currently in game, the MK 82 would be used, but their bomb sights are far more accurate than those depicted in BF2 and hopefully PR will change that as well