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Posted: 2008-03-28 15:52
by CAS_117
UB3R PWNZOR aside, can I agree that the SF kit should have an ACOG. Right now the M-4 is pretty bad. High recoil, low accuracy, low power, I usually opt for my silenced M9 when in a firefight as it does the same job with less noise. And its just plain realistic that since there are no hostages or "terrorist" situations in PR where a reflex is usually a good option, then having the kit be assigned a COIN loadout is not realistic. In reality you could have both a reflex and an ACOG. And how would it be "L337" for them to have zoom? Thats silly on many levels, even a rifleman has zoom, and there are a lot more of those. I mean don't bother trying to make it L337, I'll settle for on par with the general population.

Posted: 2008-03-28 17:15
by nedlands1
[R-CON]CAS_117 wrote:Right now the M-4 is pretty bad. High recoil, low accuracy, low power, I usually opt for my silenced M9 when in a firefight as it does the same job with less noise. And its just plain realistic that since there are no hostages or "terrorist" situations in PR where a reflex is usually a good option, then having the kit be assigned a COIN loadout is not realistic.
The "recoil" (aka muzzle climb) for the M4 is exactly the same as the M16A4 with irons in-game. I think you will find that in real life, the two have quite comparable muzzle climb since they both use the same (or very similar) ammo and the M16A4 has a higher muzzle velocity, but is heavier. If anything it is back to the old argument against the scoped weapons having less muzzle climb, while looking down the sights, then their iron sight counterparts.

The accuracy of the M4 is less then the it's big brother - yes. I think this is realistic. The problem I see is that the other deviation modifiers are the same. This makes it act like just another AK47 (ie less accurate and just as quick to bear on target as any other rifle) when in fact it is a far lighter weapon which therefore is more easy to quickly bring to bear on a target. To reflect this, I believe that the steady time should be reduced for its current assault rifle value. Perhaps make it in between the assault rifle steady time of 1 1/3 seconds and the pistol steady time of 2/3 of a second. That way it will actually feel like a carbine.

As for the power, it is almost the same as the M16A4. It has a baseline value of 35 whereas the M16A4 has 36. The materials are the same as are the distance to minimum damage values and distance to start losing damage values. In practice they are totally the same. I don't see much problem with this. The lower muzzle velocity is reflected in the slightly lower damage. Fine.

Funny thing is that the pistols are just as accurate as the M16A4 in every scenario except moving, where they don't suffer from added movement deviation as much. In this version they seem to be CQC headshot machines.

You do realise that COIN scenarios are not necessarily, "hostage or terrorist" scenarios? Do you also realise that most of the maps are not COIN based at all but are conventional army VS conventional army? The way I see it is that the the special forces kit is representative of a commando/saboteur, suited to raiding the enemy behind their lines. This sort of combat is often done up close, hence the loadout. When raiding you overwhelm the enemy with a combination of surprise, speed and power. You need to be up close in order to gain the element of speed and power. If you are up close then they can't find cover and draw the fight out, allowing their friends to come and help. Also if you are up close, you can overpower them with automatic fire which is something you can't do at range whilst maintaining speed. In the role of a saboteur, the infantry targets you engage are close to the target to be sabotaged. These targets have to be engaged silently in order to access the target without being detected and hence potentially thwarted. Therefore the suppressed pistol is issued along with explosives.

Posted: 2008-03-28 17:32
by CAS_117
[R-CON]nedlands1 wrote:The "recoil" (aka muzzle climb) for the M4 is exactly the same as the M16A4 with irons in-game. I think you will find that in real life, the two have quite comparable muzzle climb since they both use the same (or very similar) ammo and the M16A4 has a higher muzzle velocity, but is heavier. If anything it is back to the old argument against the scoped weapons having less muzzle climb, while looking down the sights, then their iron sight counterparts.

The accuracy of the M4 is less then the it's big brother - yes. I think this is realistic. The problem I see is that the other deviation modifiers are the same. This makes it act like just another AK47 (ie less accurate and just as quick to bear on target as any other rifle) when in fact it is a far lighter weapon which therefore is more easy to quickly bring to bear on a target. To reflect this, I believe that the steady time should be reduced for its current assault rifle value. Perhaps make it in between the assault rifle steady time of 1 1/3 seconds and the pistol steady time of 2/3 of a second. That way it will actually feel like a carbine.

As for the power, it is almost the same as the M16A4. It has a baseline value of 35 whereas the M16A4 has 36. The materials are the same as are the distance to minimum damage values and distance to start losing damage values. In practice they are totally the same. I don't see much problem with this. The lower muzzle velocity is reflected in the slightly lower damage. Fine.

Funny thing is that the pistols are just as accurate as the M16A4 in every scenario except moving, where they don't suffer from added movement deviation as much. In this version they seem to be CQC headshot machines.

You do realise that COIN scenarios are not necessarily, "hostage or terrorist" scenarios? Do you also realise that most of the maps are not COIN based at all but are conventional army VS conventional army? The way I see it is that the the special forces kit is representative of a commando/saboteur, suited to raiding the enemy behind their lines. This sort of combat is often done up close, hence the loadout. When raiding you overwhelm the enemy with a combination of surprise, speed and power. You need to be up close in order to gain the element of speed and power. If you are up close then they can't find cover and draw the fight out, allowing their friends to come and help. Also if you are up close, you can overpower them with automatic fire which is something you can't do at range whilst maintaining speed. In the role of a saboteur, the infantry targets you engage are close to the target to be sabotaged. These targets have to be engaged silently in order to access the target without being detected and hence potentially thwarted. Therefore the suppressed pistol is issued along with explosives.
The definition of CQB is different depending on who you ask. The only way the reflex sight is better is when you're about 10 feet away. After that the ACOG allows headshot. Try hitting someone with an aimpoint 25-50 yards away while they have an ACOG. Theres no comparison. The inaccuracy isn't an issue if you allow the sight to settle, but it takes 1-2 seconds to regain a picture with it as opposed to the ACOG where you can keep your sights on target as long as you need to.

The ACOG is just more effective period, at any range. THB I find that firing from the hip is usually just as effective as bring your dot to bear at ranges of under 20 yards, which is the only range that having an aimpoint seems to be more effective than an ACOG. Even in close quarters 4x zoom allows quicker acquisition of the targets.

And as I said earlier most of these maps are not COIN based, they are conventional. Which means that 90% of the players are going to have scoped weapons. After playing this kit regularly for several months now, 3/5 of the targets I kill are with my pistol because the M-4 is just too hard to control and the sight is just too large to hit anything over 50 yards away on a good day.

When the M-4 w/ ACOG is done for the Army, I would lean towards giving one to the SF kit.

Posted: 2008-03-28 19:33
by Eddie Baker
Welcome to the forums. All of these things have been discussed before. Before posting what you think might be a new idea, please use the search function or check the "Already Suggested" thread at the top of the page. Be advised that the search function does not always work with manufacturer model (ex: HK-33) and military type-classification alpha-numerics (ex: M25, L22, F-22, G36 etc.).

Locking the thread for resuggestion