Project Reality Forums

Offtopic but why was the tanks removed from Ejod?

ERASERLASER wrote:Offtopic but why was the tanks removed from Ejod?

They were removed in order to encourage the use of all available APC's so that they could mainly focus on the "Mechanized Infantry" (APC support with a dedicated infantry squad combination.) aspect of combat.

This tactic which is very seldomly seen might I add, is not easy to perform as it requires a high level of coordination between two different squads. Squad 1 being the APC support (Solely the (SL)driver and a gunner.) and Squad 2 being the 6-man infantry squad (Having an (SL) officer to develop a rally point and having one dedicated engineer to service the APC works best.).

However to perform this in the most efficient manner possible the Squad Leaders from either squad must be able to communicate between eachother efficiently by the use of an outside communication service such as Teamspeak and Ventrilo. Essentially so people would properly crew LAV-25's and BTR-90's and ferry a dedicated squad of infantry around that would remain highly mobile to deploy themselves in remote locations.

If you ever stumble across fuzzhead, dbzao or M.Warren (myself) on the TG (Tactical Gamer) server during a round of Ejod desert it's possible to see us performing this method. Or atleast attempting to as it was significantly easier last patch with lesser kinks in the works... Damn that Heavy Anti-Tank.

M.Warren wrote:They were removed in order to encourage the use of all available APC's so that they could mainly focus on the "Mechanized Infantry" (APC support with a dedicated infantry squad combination.) aspect of combat.

This tactic which is very seldomly seen might I add, is not easy to perform as it requires a high level of coordination between two different squads. Squad 1 being the APC support (Solely the (SL)driver and a gunner.) and Squad 2 being the 6-man infantry squad (Having an (SL) officer to develop a rally point and having one dedicated engineer to service the APC works best.).

However to perform this in the most efficient manner possible the Squad Leaders from either squad must be able to communicate between eachother efficiently by the use of an outside communication service such as Teamspeak and Ventrilo. Essentially so people would properly crew LAV-25's and BTR-90's and ferry a dedicated squad of infantry around that would remain highly mobile to deploy themselves in remote locations.

If you ever stumble across fuzzhead, dbzao or M.Warren (myself) on the TG (Tactical Gamer) server during a round of Ejod desert it's possible to see us performing this method. Or atleast attempting to as it was significantly easier last patch with lesser kinks in the works... Damn that Heavy Anti-Tank.

-I usually have the APC crew in my squad, 2 guys on that and 4 guys on foot. Communication problems resolved.

EDIT: The APCs still go up into the hills most of the time though.

ERASERLASER wrote:Offtopic but why was the tanks removed from Ejod?

there was a lot whiners that cryed about the tanks wtfpwning their tacticools moviment of their squads , hence , tanks removed .

Tanks made the map boring:

1. USMC/MEC tanks go to West/East hills and wait on enemy armor.
2. USMC won much more due to the elevation advantage around Gardens and North Desert
3. Tanks couldnt maneuver within the city, so they just sat in hills.

M.Warren wrote: HMMWV TOW:
Pros: 1-Light and swift. 2-Can destroy an APC and lesser vehicular targets in 1 shot.
Cons: 1-Gunner is unprotected and easily killed by infantry. 2-Can be destroyed by 1 Light Anti-Tank shot. 3-Can be destroyed by heavy mounted MG fire. 4-Driver has limited vision, cannot magnify/zoom and see 360º all around. 5-Cannot engage infantry units as per some server rules.

The US TOW is a valuable addition to the USMC Forces. It is extremely manueverable considering it's immense firepower. In addition to what you've said above, the TOW Humvee can kill a Chinese Tank in 1-shot... from the rear. Not to mention that you have TWO that can easily do hit and run tactics on enemy armor/vehicles. The tip is to be on the move, not to camp the south bridge until you get nailed from a distance... If you play on TG, using TOW against infantry isn't a problem anymore .

But as you said, it requires immense coordination on either side to take out TOW Humvees/Tanks. If you have a skilled tank crew vs. unskilled TOW Crew, vise versa, the outcome would be in the better crew's favor.

But putting a Cobra on the freaking map... no no no.

yeah, tanks in ejod were too annoying, they would simply camp the hills all rounds.

although i do like the idea of tanks in urban combat maps with destructable environments. imagine walking down an alleyway when suddenly a T90 smashes through the wall in front of you and turns its turret in your direction.

M.Warren wrote:After bringing up this valid point I decided to check up on these sniper rifles in particular. However I had not noticed any unusual animations coming from the M40 (USMC sniper rifle) and the L96 (Chinese sniper rifle). Each properly deploys the bipod, properly operates the bolt, holds the rifle in a realistic fashion and also reloads correctly.

However I had noticed issues with the Mosin Nagant (Insurgent and Militia sniper rifle) and the L115A1 (British sniper rifle). Each of which has had their conflicts updated and posted in the list.

If there is something wrong with the M40 (USMC sniper rifle) and the L96 (Chinese sniper rifle) that I have overlooked, please let me know.

i thought the brits used the L96. I knew the chinese had the vanilla version but i thought the brits had the PR version. NVM that one then.

And the M40's animation if you ask me is just ugly with little parts sticking out and such.

Warren is right about Qwai.
It does take more effort and coordiantion to win as the USMC and the No HAT VS INF rule on some servers can be tedious, when you know the enemy team is sporting tanks with HEAT shellz. Even then, your clearly at a disadvantage because you have just 4 TOWs, compaired to 20 Heats, full armour, 50cal and a coax.

The Light helis were implemented to counter that; to re flect the difference in stratergy, to make a balanced, no symetrical map, but its not the case.

After all, they are just light choppers, each vaulnerable to small arms fire (about two full clips from a 5.56 seems to make one drop out of the sky).
The strong point for the USMC is increased mobility, however, Qwai is so small that this is hardly the case. Now with AA vs light choppers, that advantage has gotten even smaller.

I dont think Qwai really is a tank map, TBH.

...mongol...

ironcomatose wrote: I thought the brits used the L96. I knew the chinese had the vanilla version but i thought the brits had the PR version. NVM that one then.

And the M40's animation if you ask me is just ugly with little parts sticking out and such.

Perfectly understandable. Infact the L96 in reality is truely a British sniper rifle anyways, but as we all know there are slight trade-offs in game in order to simply provide some sort of weapon for a particular faction.

The M40 (USMC sniper rifle.) though, might not ever be altered as the details are small and could possibly be due to your graphic settings aswell. Suprisingly a handful of weapons currently present in Project Reality were imported from other Battlefield 2 mods.

However it's clear that the L115A1 (British sniper rifle.) and the Mosin Nagant (Insurgent and Militia sniper rifle.) have the largest amounts of obvious visual imperfections that should be repaired and cleaned up.

ReaperMAC wrote: The US TOW is a valuable addition to the USMC Forces. It is extremely manueverable considering it's immense firepower. In addition to what you've said above, the TOW Humvee can kill a Chinese Tank in 1-shot... from the rear. Not to mention that you have TWO that can easily do hit and run tactics on enemy armor/vehicles. The tip is to be on the move, not to camp the south bridge until you get nailed from a distance... If you play on TG, using TOW against infantry isn't a problem anymore .

But as you said, it requires immense coordination on either side to take out TOW Humvees/Tanks. If you have a skilled tank crew vs. unskilled TOW Crew, vise versa, the outcome would be in the better crew's favor.

But putting a Cobra on the freaking map... no no no.

I agree with your statement and it's quite clear that the HMMWV TOW has one of the most massive missles mounted on a vehicle in PR that isn't on an aircraft of some sort at this time (Although it was mounted on the AH-1 Cobra back in the American Vietnam war.). Not to mention that a solid hard hit from a TOW could ultimately cripple the tank and cause it to throw a tread.

The HMMWV TOW has the ability to go head-on with an APC and come out ontop if your swift and precise. But when pitted up against a tank it's at a loss, but as you've stated that the use of patience and guerilla tactics will prove key to gaining the upper hand.

Although I fully understood ahead of time that in order to come out ontop with a HMMWV TOW is to establish a kill-zone and converge anti-tank munitions on the key target. However what I will admit is that I was not aware of is it's 1-shot capability with a direct hit to the rear of a tank. This is simply because I have rarely, rarely ever utilized the HMMWV TOW myself.

Though I stand by my remarks upon adding a AH-1W Cobra (USMC attack helicopter.) (As an alternative if no other solutions can be devised.) in exchange for a few of the other USMC vehicles such as 1 HMMWV TOW, 1 LAV-25 APC and/or 1 AH-6 littlebird (Minigun varient.). Why would I do this? Well, quite simply there are heavy armor assets given to the chinese and a well equipped attack helo is perfect to counter them.

However as stated by:

[R-MOD]Mongolian_dude wrote: The strong point for the USMC is increased mobility, however, Qwai is so small that this is hardly the case. Now with AA vs light choppers, that advantage has gotten even smaller.

The map is rather small and with AA emplacements being able to be deployed at select firebases and bunkers should prove to be useful in favor of the Chinese if they're capable of maintaining these assets with just as much work and coordination that the USMC must use with the HMWWV TOW. Not to mention there might be a map now that emphasizes more on the proper use of Anti-Aircraft infantry units than ever before...

With that said, I think now that we've discussed and reevaluated the map we may have just delved deeper into a new Project Reality gaming experience. "Qwai River" may be a new and brighter future for Project reality... Think about it, a map that offers new tactics and methods to counter the enemy without simply meeting them head on with the same old stuff. You know, as in a tank for a tank, jet for a jet, etc. but rather with alittle of this and a dash of that.

We should consider this a chance to think more in means of a proper gameplay balance and evaluation. I mean this is already happening on "Qwai River" but it should be thought as a "work in progress" and we're on the right track and working the kinks out... Humm, now that's some food for thought.

Imagine:
The U.S. Marine Corps is trying to advance on the fishing village, but a Type 98 tank is present and pinning the majority of them down from being able cross the bridge. The Chinese PLA forces also have a bunker present in the area with an Anti-Aicraft emplacement, forcing the AH-1W cobra to remain on stand-by as it cannot come close without risking it's own destruction.

A team of 6 USMC soldiers move in after being covertly dropped off by a littlebird light transport chopper with a Spec-Ops member present and tasked with disabling that Anti-Aircraft emplacement. They move in while the tank by the bridge is distracted and continues to offer massive supression fire holding back the main USMC spearhead. The small team of USMC reaches their objective in stealth by following rules of engagement and not to fire till fired upon. The charge is set and they dash off for cover as a Chinese soldier comes in to man the Anti-Aircraft emplacment.

Shortly thereafter the emplacement being blown sky-high and completely disabled the Spec-Ops soldier moves in to an elevated position behind the Type 98 tank and laser designates the tank for the AH-1W Super Cobra to swoop in and offer the massive deathblow. With a simple push of the button and a "Fox one! Fox one!" the Type 98 tank is erased from existance as the on-lookers watch the billowing smoke rise from the twisted wreckage from the USMC held east river bank.

The spearhead readies its last push over the bridge offering coverfire as they await the confirmation from the combat engineers that it is infact safe to cross the bridge and that the Chinese forces did not have it rigged to blow...

Humm... That'd be a sight, that'd be a sight indeed. So, what do you think?

Oh and one more thing. Do something about the British faces, they just look silly.

qwai is the prettiest PR map with the most realistic landscape and very interesting gameplay due to its asymmetrical layout. a cobra would be pure overkill on qwai, in the hands of skilled players that is. which means it would usually get downed after 3min anyways since it cant be maneuvered on such a small map ( in comparsion to the new huge ones to which the attack helos been tweaked to fit).
please, give the AH6 back its rockets. perfect compromise.
besides that I generally agree with you, I would appreciate fine tuning so very much which in my impression most of your improvement compilation is about.
it would put all the stuff anew. but I guess itd be the boring aspect of being a DEV.

New updates, additions and reevaluations as of the latest v2.5 revision.

I would greatly appreciate it if someone could list some of the bugs or corrections that have been already made and are awaiting the new Project Reality v0.8 patch if these details can be released.

Hopefully a majority of these simple gameplay mechanical/visual issues can be addressed as it effects not just myself, but all players part of the community. Granted that a small handful may be from my own opinion but those are obvious and I don't expect them all to follow through as they are simply suggestions.

Game on, with honor and integrity. See you on the battlefield gentlemen.

'[R-MOD wrote:Mongolian_dude;657358']Warren is right about Qwai.
It does take more effort and coordiantion to win as the USMC and the No HAT VS INF rule on some servers can be tedious, when you know the enemy team is sporting tanks with HEAT shellz. Even then, your clearly at a disadvantage because you have just 4 TOWs, compaired to 20 Heats, full armour, 50cal and a coax.

I dont think Qwai really is a tank map, TBH.

...mongol...

i say if you have a coordinated tank-hunting squad with 2 TOW-HMMWs and maybe a H-AT as well as a place to reload and it is done correctly, the tanks are not a problem (at least you can keep em on the western side of the river)

M.Warren wrote:I agree with your statement and it's quite clear that the HMMWV TOW has one of the most massive missles mounted on a vehicle in PR that isn't on an aircraft of some sort at this time (Although it was mounted on the AH-1 Cobra back in the American Vietnam war.). Not to mention that a solid hard hit from a TOW could ultimately cripple the tank and cause it to throw a tread.

The HMMWV TOW has the ability to go head-on with an APC and come out ontop if your swift and precise. But when pitted up against a tank it's at a loss, but as you've stated that the use of patience and guerilla tactics will prove key to gaining the upper hand.

Although I fully understood ahead of time that in order to come out ontop with a HMMWV TOW is to establish a kill-zone and converge anti-tank munitions on the key target. However what I will admit is that I was not aware of is it's 1-shot capability with a direct hit to the rear of a tank. This is simply because I have rarely, rarely ever utilized the HMMWV TOW myself.

Yes, tanks go down with 1-shot from the TOW in the rear; with that kind of balance, there is no need to adjust assets. If you lose your TOWs/Tanks, your team will be at a disadvantage. I can describe many times where our team (on Chinese or US) successfully neutralized both Tanks or TOW humvees, it mainly depends on who is operating the vehicle, simple as that. Just like airplanes. There's nothing wrong with the assets.

M.Warren wrote:Though I stand by my remarks upon adding a AH-1W Cobra (USMC attack helicopter.) (As an alternative if no other solutions can be devised.) in exchange for a few of the other USMC vehicles such as 1 HMMWV TOW, 1 LAV-25 APC and/or 1 AH-6 littlebird (Minigun varient.). Why would I do this? Well, quite simply there are heavy armor assets given to the chinese and a well equipped attack helo is perfect to counter them.

A Cobra on the other hand, piloted by a skilled crew, can wipe out both tanks, even skillfully crewed. A Cobra on that map would be just over kill, not to mention Cobras have a longer range than tanks (or AA's for the matter).

M.Warren wrote: Imagine:
The U.S. Marine Corps is trying to advance on the fishing village, but a Type 98 tank is present and pinning the majority of them down from being able cross the bridge. The Chinese PLA forces also have a bunker present in the area with an Anti-Aicraft emplacement, forcing the AH-1W cobra to remain on stand-by as it cannot come close without risking it's own destruction.

A team of 6 USMC soldiers move in after being covertly dropped off by a littlebird light transport chopper with a Spec-Ops member present and tasked with disabling that Anti-Aircraft emplacement. They move in while the tank by the bridge is distracted and continues to offer massive supression fire holding back the main USMC spearhead. The small team of USMC reaches their objective in stealth by following rules of engagement and not to fire till fired upon. The charge is set and they dash off for cover as a Chinese soldier comes in to man the Anti-Aircraft emplacment.

Shortly thereafter the emplacement being blown sky-high and completely disabled the Spec-Ops soldier moves in to an elevated position behind the Type 98 tank and laser designates the tank for the AH-1W Super Cobra to swoop in and offer the massive deathblow. With a simple push of the button and a "Fox one! Fox one!" the Type 98 tank is erased from existance as the on-lookers watch the billowing smoke rise from the twisted wreckage from the USMC held east river bank.

The spearhead readies its last push over the bridge offering coverfire as they await the confirmation from the combat engineers that it is infact safe to cross the bridge and that the Chinese forces did not have it rigged to blow...

Humm... That'd be a sight, that'd be a sight indeed. So, what do you think?

You dream... simply because most Cobras pilots and gunners will go in and rape whoever is sitting in the AA, if there is a person sitting in it. Though it would be nice to do a movie of what you describe.

Ghost1800 wrote:the only issue I have on Qwai is that you need 24 people on your team to get both HAT kits, the opposing team needs 4 to fully man both tanks with maybe an additional 2 to offer repairs.

You only need 4 to man both TOW humvees, not to mention you can carry an addition 3 more guys in each humvee. (Engineers, medics, etc.)

Ghost1800 wrote:Tanks still kill off everything in that map. Sure, the TOW HMMWs have the ability to take on a tank, but that's like saying a rifleman has the ability to take on a .50 gunner... sure you can, but it's not exactly a fair contest.

But that is the thing, it is not suppose to be a symmetrically balanced map, it is asymmetrically balanced map, and it does it well. Your example makes it sound like I'm going against a gattling gun with a pistol, which is not the case. A better example would be M16 vs G3.

M16A4 - 3 round burst, accurate, low recoil, lower damage.
G3 - Automatic mode, accurate, high recoil, higher damage.

They are balanced, but not symmetrically. Tanks vs. TOW Humvees are balanced in a similar fashion:

TOW Humvees: Fast, lightly armored, maneuverable, can carry 5 people, does not need a crewman to drive (essentially, you can set rally points as SL).

Tanks: Slow, heavily armored, not as manueverable, requires crewman to operate.

Your problem seems to be that you are going at the tanks head-on, which you shouldn't do.