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Posted: 2008-05-03 00:10
by Spec
Wolfe wrote:just discovered there are separate values for x and y axis, meaning you can make moving forward while scoped accurate, but make strafing inaccurate.
..testing further..
That sounds more promising. But going prone is not a x or y value, is it? Rather... z?
Would it be possible to have delay on firing when entering the prone position, like when you warm up the mounted machinguns?
sadly not, no. Thats whats been tried first.
Posted: 2008-05-03 00:34
by fuzzhead
JT1990 wrote:Would it be possible to have delay on firing when entering the prone position, like when you warm up the mounted machinguns?
If this was possible, it would have been done back in v0.25
Its not possible therefore we have had to live with the extremely annoying prone spam ever since.
I like Wolfe's idea and hopefully he can pull it off and at the same time NOT screw over CQB as everyone in this thread implies. I have some faith in him though, so lets keep this thing constructive, obviously masaq's scenario would not be favorable to PR so lets see what else Wolfe can come up with.
Posted: 2008-05-03 00:35
by snow
'[R-MOD wrote:Masaq;667487']Hmmm.
I suspect the law of unintended consequences would come into play here. In theory, it sounds excellent - everything that the mod needs.
In practice, it makes clearing buildings completely impossible if the defender can keep far enough away from grenades being chucked through doors, windows etc.
In practice, it means that instead of prone diving the next best thing in close quarters will be to run around street corners and wait for your target to follow you; because they'll be unable to shoot you at all as they come around.
In practice, it makes it likely that public play will crawl to a virtual standstill as the majority of players take to high positions and stay still in order to wrack up kills instead of getting bodies onto flags to capture them.
I'd love to be proved wrong, but I can really see this being detrimimental as the suggestion currently stands - and it's just as unrealistic as prone diving. Soliders can fire semi-accurate shots whilst moving slowly. It's not ideal, sure, but it beats standing completely still.
In short, this would completely reduce combat to "whoever sees the other guy first". Two people moving, first guy to lift his finger off the move button will win the engagement - not the best shot.
agree with the above.
Posted: 2008-05-03 00:47
by Liquid_Cow
Let me get this straight... one guy standing in the open could take on 32 enemy players and wipe them out as they advance on him and there's nothing they could do other than stand still for 2 seconds while he picks them off? Good idea? Not.
Posted: 2008-05-03 01:01
by Sgt. Mahi
I suspect the law of unintended consequences would come into play here. In theory, it sounds excellent - everything that the mod needs.
In practice, it makes clearing buildings completely impossible if the defender can keep far enough away from grenades being chucked through doors, windows etc.
In practice, it means that instead of prone diving the next best thing in close quarters will be to run around street corners and wait for your target to follow you; because they'll be unable to shoot you at all as they come around.
In practice, it makes it likely that public play will crawl to a virtual standstill as the majority of players take to high positions and stay still in order to wrack up kills instead of getting bodies onto flags to capture them.
What he just said.. Wouldn't work. And you already really need to be lucky if your going to hit anything while moving in .075
Posted: 2008-05-03 01:09
by maz.uk
yes yes yes get rid of prone dive
for the guy that says its not a problem get real it man it vanila all over again why did you stop playing vanila, i bet one of the reasons woz the guy your shooting at could turn dive and one shot you after you put a clip his way
a lot of pr clans have guys in the forces and iv not heard one of them agree with the way version 0.75 is set up ie having to wait 3 seconds before you shoot
would a trained soldier miss a guy at 50 yard with his back to him NO
0.5 and 0.6 were far more better for the game ,if you were seen first by a good player then you were dead if they missed then you had a chance, it woz down to being a good shot and quick with it at the same time ,now its a gamble on who can dive the best
there woznt campers in early versions just guys being more carful not to be seen first
Posted: 2008-05-03 01:25
by SgtSlate1
Sometimes i feel as PR is somehow changing into vinilla. Ive noticed an increase of prone diving hopping etc...We really need to fix the problem and this could be it.
Posted: 2008-05-03 01:32
by Wolfe
By the way...
To those who say it will ruin CQB... Does CQB exist now in any kind of non-gamey state? I mean seriously, it's all about running into the room and firing at everything see, as quickly as they see it. Run'n gun. Yay. Is this the CQB we're all afraid of losing? Good riddance, i say.
I'll continue working on this angle despite the naysayers and claims of instant fail by those who don't even try.
Posted: 2008-05-03 02:10
by Cyrax-Sektor
Sounds promising. Hope the tests go well!
Now, I could sit prone watching for enemies, then a SAW gunner appears over the hill and blasts me away while walking at me with a humongous gun. It's like a Rambo movie, only Rambo actually stopped occasionally to kill a guy with his PKM. /complaint.
This happens a lot, it's easy to do because I've tested this on bots. You're golden up close, you won't miss. But is that realistic? Maybe this possible solution could fix this.
Posted: 2008-05-03 02:25
by Waaah_Wah
Im gonna have to agree with Masaq on this one
Posted: 2008-05-03 02:31
by nedlands1
Wolfe wrote:What if you could 100% eliminate prone spam?
What if you could 100% eliminate run'n gun?
You can:
By increasing the movement deviation while proportionally increasing the rate at which it narrows to a point.
Thoughts?
You are only describing a scenario where you have a stationary defender and a prone spamming attacker. What about two people moving, not quite at point blank but a close to medium range? If anything, increasing the
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setSpeedDev maximum deviation values, the rate at which the values come to a maximum and significantly increasing the reduction after moving will increase the spam in that situation.
Really the only feasible suggestion for solving this (amongst other problems) is to dump the BF2 engine and migrate into BF2142. In 2142 you it is very easy to incorporate deviation added after going prone, thus solving the prone spam issue. You can also incorporate weapon sway without much hassle at all. I suspect they also fixed the finite resupply issue in it too.
Posted: 2008-05-03 02:58
by Wolfe
'[R-CON wrote:nedlands1;667661']You are only describing a scenario where you have a stationary defender and a prone spamming attacker. What about two people moving, not quite at point blank but a close to medium range? If anything, increasing the ObjectTemplate.deviation.setSpeedDev maximum deviation values, the rate at which the values come to a maximum and significantly increasing the reduction after moving will increase the spam in that situation.
Negative. We have already tested that with promising results.
Really the only feasible suggestion for solving this (amongst other problems) is to dump the BF2 engine and migrate into BF2142.
Not feasible at all, unless there are already efforts to do this, which I highly doubt.
In hindsight, I never should have posted this idea until all the coding was smoothed out.
Posted: 2008-05-03 03:21
by nedlands1
Wolfe wrote:Negative. We have already tested that with promising results.
Not feasible at all, unless there are already efforts to do this, which I highly doubt.
In hindsight, I never should have posted this idea until all the coding was smoothed out.
Results which are? Under what conditions? People who have been told what the weapon handling dynamics are and how they should react or people who have been playing under these conditions for a period of time and have subsequently developed their own tactics?
Here is the scenario. I see a guy say 25m+, he sees me. We can't hit each other while moving because of this huge deviation we have after moving so we both stop. We want to maximise the chance of hitting the other person and minimise the chance of getting hit ourselves so we both go prone. By going prone, in effect, we reduce the time it takes for the movement deviation to reach a point where we a guaranteed a hit compared to the time it takes in a standing position after moving.
How can you you say it is not feasible if it solves a number of problems which are intrinsically impossible to solve with the tools at hand? BF2142 is based upon BF2's engine. A very large amount of the coding is exactly the same. I'd wager that the models and animations can be ported almost effortlessly across. The problem's will arise whenever there is a new feature set which is not in BF2. Also the sheer amount of content which needs to be ported would be problematic.
Posted: 2008-05-03 04:03
by CDN-SMOKEJUMPER
[R-MOD]Masaq wrote:
In short, this would completely reduce combat to "whoever sees the other guy first". Two people moving, first guy to lift his finger off the move button will win the engagement - not the best shot.
Right on the money, stop screwing with my shooting ability. Prone spam is in the game until we get a new engine just deal with it.
Posted: 2008-05-03 04:18
by Razick
I would like to see it myself under these conditions. Can you keep us updated on the testing of it through some videos so we can actually see for ourselves what we could possibly have to get used to?
Posted: 2008-05-03 04:36
by CAS_117
I wonder if we can increase the number of players in 2142? I wonder...
Posted: 2008-05-03 06:11
by Razick
[R-CON]CAS_117 wrote:I wonder if we can increase the number of players in 2142? I wonder...
Well you can increase the bot number to 128 in single player but I have no clue about mulitplayer. Wonder if anyone has even bothered trying after the failed attempts with BF2?
Posted: 2008-05-03 06:35
by Wolfe
In short, this would completely reduce combat to "whoever sees the other guy first". Two people moving, first guy to lift his finger off the move button will win the engagement - not the best shot.
This is exactly how the game plays now, isn't it? Accuracy is so precise that whoever sees the the other guy first, wins. And the best shot? Moving the cursor over the player then pressing the fire button 3 times per second hardly defines who is the best shooter. That's just twitch vanilla bf2 style.
I'd rather see a game where position and teamwork is rewarded more than the guy who can move his mouse faster than everyone else. Besides, we're only talking about a 1 second delay... enough time for the stationary player to accurately shoot the running rambo balls to the wall prone diving player. Is that so horrible?
Posted: 2008-05-03 06:43
by ZZEZ
This would be unrealistic, soldiers are taught to fire on the move to provide self cover or suppress while moving forward.
Posted: 2008-05-03 07:17
by Makee
I cannot judge things that i haven't seen yet but from my current point of view on that idea, I can assume, as Masaq, that this change would have major impact right to close urban combat, and there is no more space for further restrictions!
If the price for that is to tolerate prone diving, OK for me.