Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

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Tirak
Posts: 2022
Joined: 2008-05-11 00:35

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by Tirak »

Celestial1 wrote:I've shot RPGs from about 500-600m from the edge of the city and hit armors with either the first or second shot. I've been hit by RPGs from about that distance. Don't give me that kind of BS.

I'm not talking about in the middle of the damn desert of Al Basrah. I've never shot or seen a civi out there (except for when ambushes to the East of Main are being staged, I'll occasionally see a civi). I'm talking about an insurgent on a rooftop near the outsides of the city. BF2's engine doesn't give that kind of ability to hide weapons. And that RPG would be ON HIS BACK, or IN HIS HANDS, if he was going to be attempting an ambush. They can hide behind something all they want, but their weapons would likely be in their hands getting ready to take a shot, or already shooting.

An infantry screen is not the problem. The infantry screen is good; but you're missing the fact that they're not going to climb every building in the area to check. "Oh, okay this one's a civi, oops this one was an insurgent I just got killed"

The. Problem. Is. The. Headgarb. Not. Rendering.

That's it, that's really it! If it rendered I wouldn't be saying a damn thing! But since it doesn't, there should be some minor way to say "hey, this guy doesn't have a gun, he's not going to kill us, let's not shoot him".
It's not BS but what ever :roll:

Again, I do not agree with any difference at long range to make civies stand out, as I have said I support them looking the same. If that is the main point of contention between us in this arguement then there is nothing more to discuss, we simply do not agree on the point.
Celestial1
Posts: 1124
Joined: 2007-08-07 19:14

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by Celestial1 »

Tofurkeymeister wrote:Bring back all the caches! It is more fun when you can sweep. More... insurgency-like.

More helicopters! Sure it may be a waste of tickets, but its fun, not to mention VERY realistic. An attack copter wouldn't hurt either...
I'd support bringing back the caches, but there's one problem: it doesn't promote team work. Most people in old Al Basrah were running around like chickens without heads trying to find caches. It'd be great if teams worked together to collaborate that kind of attack. I'd support it full on if more teamwork was present.

For those of you who spout "Don't dumb down the game for those few" guess what the cache system was changed for? Dumbing down insurgency. It does promote teamwork (or at least having more than 3 people in one place) when you can only attack a cache or two at a time.

One attack chopper would be something to see tested, to see if it would be able to return. With the current amount of RPGs active on the insurgent side, it should encourage making sweeping runs and the like instead of just bolting in, and hopefully insurgents will have something to actually fear from the skies now and then.
Bringerof_D
Posts: 2142
Joined: 2007-11-16 04:43

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by Bringerof_D »

Celestial1 wrote:I'd support bringing back the caches, but there's one problem: it doesn't promote team work. Most people in old Al Basrah were running around like chickens without heads trying to find caches. It'd be great if teams worked together to collaborate that kind of attack. I'd support it full on if more teamwork was present.

For those of you who spout "Don't dumb down the game for those few" guess what the cache system was changed for? Dumbing down insurgency. It does promote teamwork (or at least having more than 3 people in one place) when you can only attack a cache or two at a time.

One attack chopper would be something to see tested, to see if it would be able to return. With the current amount of RPGs active on the insurgent side, it should encourage making sweeping runs and the like instead of just bolting in, and hopefully insurgents will have something to actually fear from the skies now and then.
ok first things first, we are playing as insurgents...so in other words angy locals with guns, not an organised malitia, so no i dont really think teamwork is necesary for basrah other than for GB.

i do believe that all caches should be active at once, although intel only available for 3 at a time, that way you can have the realistic sense of patroling for cahces and the teams that wanna have a good fight. In other words those of us with disciplin and sweep searching skills can sweep through the map searching while the trigger happy others can go straight into the marked ones.
Celestial1
Posts: 1124
Joined: 2007-08-07 19:14

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by Celestial1 »

Bringerof_D wrote:ok first things first, we are playing as insurgents...so in other words angy locals with guns, not an organised malitia, so no i dont really think teamwork is necesary for basrah other than for GB.

i do believe that all caches should be active at once, although intel only available for 3 at a time, that way you can have the realistic sense of patroling for cahces and the teams that wanna have a good fight. In other words those of us with disciplin and sweep searching skills can sweep through the map searching while the trigger happy others can go straight into the marked ones.
What, you're saying everyday people can't work together? I'm pretty sure I could yell at Hajib over there to shoot his RPG after I detonate my IED. I mean granted, they aren't a super-organized force. That's apparent in the gameplay; they spawn sporadically, they don't have a 'leader' (commander) and their 'squad leader' is really just one of them who is designated as a leader and has a grenade launcher on his AK-47. They shouldn't get any more organized than that, but I think that insurgents would likely bulk up if they knew where a British assault was going to occur.

The second idea: That could work well, but I'd still suggest reducing the number available and the number overall, personally.
Celestial1
Posts: 1124
Joined: 2007-08-07 19:14

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by Celestial1 »

Ghost1800 wrote:Maybe another suggestion is to keep insurgents from having a commander by either not letting anyone into the position or kicking people out of it. There is supposed to be a disadvantage as far as infrastructure is concerned but not only do they get someone to coordinate between the cells in real time, that person also adds to the total grenade launcher count.
Insurgents don't get a commander.

The game kills the commander on spawn until he resigns, last I checked.
Cyrax-Sektor
Posts: 1030
Joined: 2007-10-15 21:12

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by Cyrax-Sektor »

Celestial1 wrote:Insurgents don't get a commander.

The game kills the commander on spawn until he resigns, last I checked.
Not anymore, that was the case in .6, but Insurgents can have a Commander now.
Celestial1
Posts: 1124
Joined: 2007-08-07 19:14

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by Celestial1 »

Cyrax-Sektor wrote:Not anymore, that was the case in .6, but Insurgents can have a Commander now.
Ugh, really? I never heard anything about that being put back in.

I hope that gets removed then, luckily I haven't seen anyone use it but I just don't think that insurgents should ever have a commander.
Waaah_Wah
Posts: 3167
Joined: 2007-07-26 13:55

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by Waaah_Wah »

Celestial1 wrote:I've shot RPGs from about 500-600m from the edge of the city and hit armors with either the first or second shot. I've been hit by RPGs from about that distance. Don't give me that kind of BS.
Enemy bullshit spotted! At 500-600 meters you can barely see anything without binos. The RPG iron sight are so big that they will obscure your vision.

Around 300 meters, yes, 300+ VERY unlikely.
Never argue with an idiot, he will just drag you down to his level and beat you by experience ;)

Killing for peace is like f*cking for virginity

I :33_love: Jaymz
Celestial1
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Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by Celestial1 »

Waaah_Wah wrote:Enemy bullshit spotted! At 500-600 meters you can barely see anything without binos. The RPG iron sight are so big that they will obscure your vision.

Around 300 meters, yes, 300+ VERY unlikely.
Hmm let's see...

RPG kit has... binos. Binos have... markings. Those markings can show you... the middle of the screen.

Binos, aim, switch to rpg, iron sight in, fire. :roll:

Especially if they have moved perpendicularly away from you and then stopped.
Tirak
Posts: 2022
Joined: 2008-05-11 00:35

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by Tirak »

That trick doesn't work anymore, (At least not for the AA rocket)
baptist_christian
Posts: 266
Joined: 2007-06-20 21:51

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by baptist_christian »

Celestial1 wrote:Hmm let's see...

RPG kit has... binos. Binos have... markings. Those markings can show you... the middle of the screen.

Binos, aim, switch to rpg, iron sight in, fire. :roll:

Especially if they have moved perpendicularly away from you and then stopped.
seriously dude, if you just switch from binos to the RPG you can hit a dime-sized target provided that it's not moving.
GR34
Posts: 471
Joined: 2007-04-07 03:08

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by GR34 »

and get rid of the bags and hand gun on the civvies belt
In game name Joshey
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GR34
Posts: 471
Joined: 2007-04-07 03:08

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by GR34 »

Celestial1 wrote:Granted, but in PR it acts more like an APC than an IFV, as the scimitar seems to fill that roll, while the warrior can carry more than 2 people.


I think people hate the warrior because it has to reload its HEI-T rounds after 60 rounds were as the Scimitar has 111 that it can shoot off with no gay reload and for some reasion the scimitar just seems better then it in every way maybe its because the Scimitar is a cutie little thang and the warrior is like your fat uncle with to much body hair. It would be cool if an interior was modled for the Warrior so there is something to look at besides that stupid back window
In game name Joshey
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LithiumFox
Posts: 2334
Joined: 2007-07-08 18:25

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by LithiumFox »

Celestial i agree a lot with you on the headgarb

This is for ALL enemies

You can see what a enemy is wearing on THEIR HEAD from far range, no matter what. The issue lies in that the LOD's the team uses take out the headgarb. This also includes the Militia, the British, the US, the Chinese, and pretty much everyone. I hate not seeing headgarbs, they are the most distinguishing part of a uniform. You can tell the difference very easily with militia and british. Militians have a little black thing on their head, while british have a big helmet. Same with the insurgents. RPGS have a big Headgarb on, but Civi's don't. In real life, if someone is wearing a headgarb, you can see the freaking headgarb. There isn't a decrease in the level of detail. You can see the rpg on their back in real life. Now if they were hiding it on the ground.. that would be a different story.. but they would most likely be aim at you already.

Celestial wins out of visual correctness.

Besides, don't generally civilians have some kind of random tattered look, not a long sweater with a fanny-pack? XD
Brummy
Posts: 7479
Joined: 2007-06-03 18:54

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by Brummy »

Celestial1 wrote:Hmm let's see...

RPG kit has... binos. Binos have... markings. Those markings can show you... the middle of the screen.

Binos, aim, switch to rpg, iron sight in, fire. :roll:

Especially if they have moved perpendicularly away from you and then stopped.
That's really realistic man. :|

That's considered an exploit in my opinion, it's unfair and a bit sad.
Skaylay
Posts: 17
Joined: 2008-02-22 08:59

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by Skaylay »

: )
Celestial1 wrote:
  1. Remove the Merlin - Rather no, it can be very useful with a good pilot who knows where can he drop troops/land without any risk. I think that the Merlin should be able to survive 2 RPG shots and still be able to land.
  2. Change Insurgent Rallies - I like Rallies as they are.
  3. Moving Vehicle Wrecks - Why not; add more static urban miscellaneous objects like car wrecks on/by roads so there are more objects to hide behind and so vehicles need to manoeuvre (no more full speed pass by).
  4. Changes to Cache System - What about changing map info for insurgents so they don't know on which cashes Brits have/are given intel. This will force(don't like the word) them to communicate, and pay more attention to all cashes.
  5. More Severe Civi Punishments - Server could count (if this is possible) the amount of civis being killed by Brits and give some penalties to whole Brit side (like spawn time, vehicle spawn time) or/and some boons for insurgents (like extra RPs, new weapons at cashes)
  6. Civi Appearance Change - Make more civis kits with different colours shirts each : D
  7. Less focus on the West Village - It's good, if you can't manage in WV with Simi/tank support it means you have little chance to cope with insurgents in the city.
jOHNNYdOUBE
Posts: 637
Joined: 2007-09-13 21:28

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by jOHNNYdOUBE »

Even if you use the bino exploit...you still have to aim the RPG really high and it never works anyways.
It only works for bulletes.
Those guys need the binos.
So they know which way to chase the armor.
Celestial1
Posts: 1124
Joined: 2007-08-07 19:14

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by Celestial1 »

Brummy wrote:That's really realistic man. :|

That's considered an exploit in my opinion, it's unfair and a bit sad.
I use it when the only thing in sight is a vehicle that I could hit if it wasn't for the obstructive sights on the RPG. Which I'm not complaining about, they should stay. I don't use binos for infantry/guns, ever. Just for being able to get a clear view, when I don't feel like estimating (as opposed to markings on the binos for accuracy) for drop compensation.

But I'm awaiting bino-markings being removed completely, not including SOFLAMS (soflams need it for laser targeting). I would like to see them become a regular set of binoculars, not super-tactical distance-marked special operations binocs. [Also, Binos produce an in-sight bug for widescreen. The binoc's overlay ends at the normal size, and the rest of the screen is unblocked. This does NOT happen for SOFLAMS, IIRC.]
jOHNNYdOUBE wrote:Even if you use the bino exploit...you still have to aim the RPG really high and it never works anyways.
It only works for bulletes.
Those guys need the binos.
So they know which way to chase the armor.
I only use it for the RPG. I don't believe it should be used for cheap shots like with your average scoped gun with your super-accuracy. And I will only use it if it's at the very edge of visual view.
Skaylay wrote:Remove the Merlin - Rather no, it can be very useful with a good pilot who knows where can he drop troops/land without any risk. I think that the Merlin should be able to survive 2 RPG shots and still be able to land.
Wait, what? 2 RPG shots, to a helicopter? I'd assume that thing could take an RPG and keep alive for long enough to bug out and get repairs. Everyone seems to love the Merlin on this map. More often than not if you have a good ear you can listen to if it lands near you.

Vehicles aren't that loud. Vehicles would allow for more insurgent ambush. They just seem like a better alternative, if you ask me. [More vehicles would be needed to compensate, obviously!]
Skaylay wrote:Change Insurgent Rallies - I like Rallies as they are.
The only thing that would change is that less of the rallies would be grouped together, so there won't be as many times of insurgent rallies grouping up to 3 in a 20m area. Granted, if you like rallies being grouped together that's your preference.
Skaylay wrote:Changes to Cache System - What about changing map info for insurgents so they don't know on which cashes Brits have/are given intel. This will force(don't like the word) them to communicate, and pay more attention to all cashes.
Interesting idea. I would like to find out if this would play well.
Skaylay wrote:More Severe Civi Punishments - Server could count (if this is possible) the amount of civis being killed by Brits and give some penalties to whole Brit side (like spawn time, vehicle spawn time) or/and some boons for insurgents (like extra RPs, new weapons at cashes)
I'm pretty sure the server counts civi kills per player. Or is that a clientside check? I know that after 3 civi kills or whatever it sends you back to base. I'm figuring that penalties to the entire team would cause people to get very aggravated with players/the game. I'm pretty sure keeping the punishment to the player and not the team (does an entire army get penalized for one idiot shooting an innocent?) would be in better interest.

I don't think insurgents would celebrate their civilian observer being killed. A better idea, but again would promote civis running into fire like suicidal idiots.
LithiumFox wrote:Besides, don't generally civilians have some kind of random tattered look, not a long sweater with a fanny-pack?
I'd like to see either some magic helmet-only LOD fix (lol not happening) or to see slight distinction between the Insurgents and civi.

Removing the kit's fanny pack look would be something I would really like to see. It would also be nice to see if a few civilian variants could be implemented; instead of him always having the same old striped white sweater, he would get a bit of blue to his sweater, and a change of pants. But something small, not the old SUPERGREEN jacket and the bright red nikes.

----------

NEW ADDITIONS:
  1. Civilians Being Fair Game within 20m of an Insurgent Team-Member - When civis are 20m (more or less, if fitting) distance from a non-civi teammate, the civi would be fair game, for actively supporting the insurgent. This would disencourage civi-shields and make civis want to operate a small distance away from insurgents, or to wait until the right time to tell his team to pop up and begin an unexpected ambush. Civis would still be able to interact with insurgents, they would just not want British forces to see them collaborating directly with insurgents. Field dressings and vehicle repair should be done out of sight from British forces, to keep the insurgent safe from fire and the civi out of danger of being caught red-handed. Punishment for shooting a civilian away from insurgent operation would be extremely severe due to the fact that there should be no reason for the civilian to be seen as a threat. The civi can still be 'arrested'; due to them still being in the area, they might have information available and shooting them without proof of collaboration would be reprehensible. [Hopefully this is not restricted because of the engine.]
  2. Cache(s) Added around Mosque Area - No need for more than one or two, at the most. These would be the British slaughter-points as they would be severely underpowered vs. insurgents in the area, on rooftops and such. Armor would be used sparingly in the area, and extraordinary infantry tactics would be required to overcome insurgent forces. And no, it shouldn't be IN the mosque courtyard.
  3. Removing the civi's rock - A civi should be utterly defenseless against a British soldier coming after him. Throwing rock to the British soldier's head would be about as productive as shooting himself in the foot. Perhaps another item could be thought of to give the civi non-confronational use? Smoke? Trip Flares? (Maybe the insurgents would have "given" it to him?) I don't know. But the civi rock could use to be removed/replaced. I find it useful every now and then, don't get me wrong, but I'm sure it wouldn't make the British soldier want to treat him any better.
  4. Cache info Indication - See Skaylay's suggestion. Insurgents are not notified immediately/at all of British acquiring info on caches. Should be tested for gameplay, either completely and permanently unknowing of the information being acquired, or say a 5-10 minute delay if it does better.
  5. Intel Changes - Intel doesn't seem to be all that big of a deal on Basrah anymore. You just keep attacking a cache and you know very easily where the next cache is. Perhaps increasing the amount of intel required to find a cache (and perhaps removing the instant intel gain of shooting an insurgent? Encourage actually checking the insurgent's belongings for some tips to the caches location? Would be perfect if you could stand over the body to gain intel, or hit g at a body to "pick up intel" kind of setup, so even when kits disappear, intel can be collected?) to make searching a part of the game mode. Would go well along with reducing the number of caches [OVERALL/ones that must be destroyed] to encourage searching the city/insurgent strongholds for information. There might even be an encouragement to have one squad search for insurgents and collect intel while the rest of the team battles to destroy the caches, so that more caches may be attacked at once by the british team.
Bringerof_D
Posts: 2142
Joined: 2007-11-16 04:43

Re: Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

Post by Bringerof_D »

LithiumFox wrote:Celestial You can tell the difference very easily with militia and british. Militians have a little black thing on their head, while british have a big helmet.
its called a tuke
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