Project Reality Forums

Posted: **2009-01-10 17:04**

Remove the Civilian class from Insurgency.

Posted: **2009-01-10 18:20**

Insant death for TK is a bad Idea.

Sometimes a TK happens by accident. Fair enough for civvies because people just shoot them for the shits and giggles

Posted: **2009-01-10 18:37**

Keep civilians. Without civilians, the game is a bit unrealistic.

You can't expect there to be NO civilians in a city....

Posted: **2009-01-10 18:42**

Aquiller wrote:Remove the Civilian class from Insurgency.

If they don't change the current situation they might as well. Scouts are a nice class to play on Archer and Korengal and they would work fine on Ramiel/Basrah.

Posted: **2009-01-10 19:18**

aperson444 wrote:Keep civilians. Without civilians, the game is a bit unrealistic.

You can't expect there to be NO civilians in a city....

By no fault of the PR DEV team, the civilian class is a failure simply because the players are divided up into two teams where the supposed "civilian" class is part of the insurgent team. They spawn with the insurgents, they help the insurgents, and they are an active part of the insurgency.

Besides, if you wanted realism you'd make everyone a civilian then have four limited insurgent kits. Twenty-eight of the players on the other team would just sit around in buildings and occasionally roam the streets driving their cars while the insurgents bombed civilians, planted roadside bombs, fired mortars and whatnot. That would be more realistic but also incredibly boring.

Posted: **2009-01-10 19:30**

not realistic, not be in game. Not like your commanding officer sees you kill a civilian then pulls out his pistol and executes you :\

Posted: **2009-01-10 20:27**

Threads of this nature show up with enough regularity to rival the tides, thus I'll post this comment made by WNxKenwayy six or seven months ago.

WNxKenwayy wrote:Ideally yes. You get a PID (Positive IDentification) on your target before pulling the trigger.

In real life, that isn't always possible. Al Basrah represents a more initial wave/fallujah retake than a normal patrolling unit encounter. In that situation the rules of engagement change because of the increased danger. The golden rule is 'hostile threat, hostile intent'. If you believe there is a hostile threat or hostile intent, you paste them. Example would be a group of civilians protecting a gunman/RPGer. The civilian doesn't represent a hostile threat, but they sure as shit represent hostile intent. They could be forced to be human shields, which sucks, but that's war and you can be damn sure the other soldier will protect himself and his brothers first. Any soldier that wouldn't sure as shit shouldn't be there.

Put it this way. This change is in no way realistic to US Armed forces regulations or protocol and from a soldiers standpoint is stupid.

As for realism, what's more realistic? Mom and kids staying inside during a massive battle, or the commanding officer roaming the battlefield shooting his own soldiers in the back of the head the instant any case of friendly fire or a civilian casualty occurs?

Until you can code in a difference between a civi wandering the map doing his own thing, and one spotting for the Insurgents, throwing rocks, using themselves as a shield, or other things of this nature, I say do one of these:

1) Give 'em a rifle and call it a scout.
2) Play the class differently so you don't get shot at.

Ablack77 wrote:Which is why I suggest forcing players to play ball.

Players are hardcoded. Nothing short of format c: /y if r-tard=yes, or brutal physical violence will stop people from being nubbles.

Posted: **2009-01-10 20:47**

^ +1

civie/collaborator is incredibly unrealistic. Until they put some NPCs running around not aiding anyone, that can be civilians, remove collaborator. It's broken and no amount of spawn or kit punishments is going to fix it.

Posted: **2009-01-10 21:09**

Civilians are realistic in that they mean you have to worry about collateral damage. AFVs could just blow up everything they see if it weren't for civilians, but just like in real life, you can't just use explosives indiscriminately. Civilians are the unique feature of insurgency that make it different from conventional, shoot-everything-that-moves warfare of other maps in PR. Yes, you do have the meta-game knowledge that every collaborator is working against you, but in the context of the game, a guy with a cellphone is a guy with a cellphone.

Also, everyone seems to assume that every civilian in PR jumps on grenades, makes a human shield out of himself or runs up to coalition troops and attempts to swallow their flash hiders. Truth is, you get easily killed as a civvie regardless of what you're doing. You can get shot in the back, running away from a firefight. You can get shot while running down a street, without knowing what hit you. You can get shot by an APC while trying to take cover from it as it sprays your position with HEI rounds.

Posted: **2009-01-10 21:40**

Yup.

Keep the civies... I don't know about removing their rocks? What?...

But I agree penalties should be far worse for coalition men killing civies, sometimes they just do it out of boredom wich is truly annoying and unrealistic.

Disagree witht the death on TK tho, that just plain wouldn't work with how you can get TKs ingame for sometimes.. stupid reasons. what about pubbers jumping on top of your chopper and sitting there waiting for you to lift off, TKing them, and forcing you to die? Same goes for people jumping in front of your vehicle so you die and they can grab it.. Err.

??:

Posted: **2009-01-10 21:53**

Here was my experience from the other day.

I spawned as a collaborator on Al Basrah and used my grapple to get on top of one of the two story buildings in the village on the west side of the map.

The Challenger rolls down from the north. I look at him through binoculars and he mows me down with the machine gun. I even posted 'hope that gunner on the tank enjoys his respawn time' and went to get a drink while waiting to respawn.

Respawn again at the village (we set up a hideout there) and again go up on top of the building to spot for my squad. Mind you there is nobody else up there with me, I obviously don't have a weapon and didn't even have time to bring my binoculars up. I get shot again by the same challenger....

One or the other suggestions from this thread needs to happen. Either the civi/collaborator needs to be removed for a scout or other kit, or the civi/collaborator being killed needs to do something more dramatic to the US/Brit team.

Posted: **2009-01-10 21:59**

A collaborator is not a civilian, but an unarmed enemy combatant. Binoculars in your hand and by your eyes make you a legit target, because you could be spotting for indirect fire.

Posted: **2009-01-10 22:43**

[R-DEV]Eddie Baker wrote:A collaborator is not a civilian, but an unarmed enemy combatant. Binoculars in your hand and by your eyes make you a legit target, because you could be spotting for indirect fire.

If that's the final word and well if it came from a dev then I guess it's the final word,
may as well remove the collaborator class and put something in that people will actually use.

EDIT--> So if the collaborator is a legit target WTF is there a penalty at all for shooting them then?

Posted: **2009-01-10 23:26**

cyberzomby wrote:One thing that bothers me the most is the long collab spawn time. Why in earth does it have a longer spawn time than the rest? Just a normal question guys I really dont know

Because they do something that I like to call "the Hamas maneuver". Civvies in PR often would jump in front of bullets and die on purpose so that the coalition guys get punished. I also heard that they would stand in front of insurgents so the coalition guys can't shoot the insurgent without killing the civilian.

Posted: **2009-01-11 01:55**

I have to say, that i totally agree with the Topicstarter! You just get an instant kill, as you beeing removed from the battlefield to report to your Com whats happend. This really would stop them killing civis.

And for the problem with Humanshields, or running on nades.. Maybe its possible to reduce it on weapons (so no explosives, maybe 2x grenade = instakill).
In my opinion, there is something missing like an teaser. That you only have a range of 10m, but civis would have been more afraid of coalition forces! They would stay more in distance.
If you can take the teaser as fast as the pistol out, it should not beeing a problem to stop them!

-->

Posted: **2009-01-11 03:22**

Dumb idea, but what about having two seperate classes? One civilian which is armed with an orange, a cell phone, and a thing where he raises his hands above his head to say stop shooting! Firing at and hitting a civillian will give you a long spawn. Killing one will make the U.S. team lose a ticket and give you a even longer spawn. Killing two will instantly give your kit back the the quartermaster and spawn you at the main base as an unarmed soilder/prisoner with just bandages, a medkit, and a wrench simulating that the judge decided that you should do hard labor before being sent back to the fight. You will be unable to request any weapons for 5-10 mins and picking up a weapon will kill you instantly and the 5-10 min counter will begin again. Suiciding will make the counter begin again. Getting killed by FF or the enemy gives you a 240 second spawn time. Civis are limited kits, only 4 civies with over 48 players. There is absolutly no point in arresting a civilian. What needs to be worked out is what to do with civilian meat shields? Civilians need to stay at least 30 m away from insurgent forces because civies want nothing to do with killing coliation troops. Civies can't join squads.

The other is an unarmed collaborator. These guys have everything they do now. Killing a collaborator in armor has no penalties. Killing them with a 50 has no penalties. Running over them gives penalties. Killing 5 collaborators in one life sends you to jail. Killing collaborators adds 60 secs to your next spawn time. The amount of spawn time is cumulative, there is no limit on how high they can get. Collaborators are insurgents who couldn't find a weapon so they just decided to help out. They should be able to pick up weapons at will.

Joke: You know you're an insurgent when you have a 3000$ gun and a 5000$ rocket launcher, but you can't afford a pair of shoes.

Posted: **2009-01-11 04:00**

Not a good idea. You will have people jumping into bullets and becoming human shields.

Posted: **2009-01-11 15:31**

abgelehnt

Posted: **2009-01-11 15:57**

Instant death for kill problems:
Area attack weapons would likely get you killed.
Inability to make out insurgent types due to drawing limitation will likely you killed.
Collaborators purposely getting themselves killed to thwart enemy.

Kit problems:
Civilians don't run around with bandages, binoculars, wrenches, and grappling hooks.

Classification problems:
Civilians don't actively hideout with, travel with, and assist in combat on a regular basis with insurgents. Really, the collaborator is just fulfilling a role in the insurgency that isn't a grunt. If blowing up a network operations center (troops that don't directly fight) is legal in real life then I don't see why killing a guy who is performing those kinds of roles in the insurgency is not okay.
Insurgents kill civilians so why don't they get rewarded for killing collaborators? Probably because the collaborator is an insurgent.

Gameplay problems:
Coalition troops are expected to arrest the collaborator. If he's a civilian why would they do that? I doubt coalition troops drive around going "Look! A civilian! Let's arrest him!" then proceed to chase him down and flexicuff him. So, if you're going to be arresting these people then it has to be for a good reason like being a terrorist or assisting terrorists in which case they'd have to have intel on these guys before hand.
Identifying the enemy is limited to the draw range of the kits however the draw range in total exceeds this. At a distance they all look exactly alike.
Collaborators are expected to assist the insurgent team. Assisting the US team will likely get you kicked or banned. Not assisting either team is extremely boring and pointless (who would join a game to do nothing?).

So really, we have this odd scenario where there is an insurgent class that has no gun and coalition troops get punished for killing him. None of it stands up to reason.

Civilians in PR is just like fast ropes in PR. Sure, you can have them if you really, really want them but they're riddled with problems.

Posted: **2009-01-11 22:56**

Ablack77 wrote:I suggest giving a much stiffer penalty to players who kill collaborators.

The current system of punishment for the coalition who kill collaborators is simply not enough of a deterrent for
(I would say) 99.9% of players.

Players don't give a **** about killing a collaborator and most of the information I'm hearing is
"hey if they're going to throw rocks at me they're going to die"

Since the inception of the long spawn times for collaborators on any given round you'll be lucky if one player out of 32 decides that the kit is worth it.

Since 0.8 has arrived I've chosen the collaborator class approximately 20 times and out of those 20 times I estimate I've been shot 16-17 times (indicating the lack of regard in choosing targets),
twice I've fallen off something ie a building
(which results in a "suicide" punishment for me ie 5 minute spawn time)
and I can only recall being handcuffed/knifed 3 times total.

All in all, every time I've chosen to go collaborator I've ended up totally frustrated and either quit out of the round or sworn to never choose the collaborator class EVER again,
which is where I stand now.

And since I get punished with long spawn times when a coalition soldier couldn't give a toss about how the game is meant to be played.........
I simply refuse to choose the civi kit ever again.
If my squad leader asks me to choose the collaborator kit on my next respawn my answer is NO!

I don't get any enjoyment out of staring at a black screen for long periods of time
and if the enemy team isn't willing to play ball then neither am I.

Which is why I suggest forcing players to play ball.

I have a strong feeling that if players are penalised with death for shooting a collaborator that they will very quickly learn to abide by the ROE (rules of engagement) and designed gameplay and start to actually try to identify their targets instead of having a shoot first ask questions later attitude.

You could actually use the excuse and have a message show up on screen while your waiting to respawn
"you have been brought in for questioning after your acts of aggression on civilians"

This "instant death" idea could also possibly be carried over to team killing
"you have been brought in for questioning after a friendly fire incident"

I think it was RO (Red Orchestra) which I used to play a long time ago which had death as a penalty for killing team mates,
which seems like a great idea to me don't you think?
Think of the tards and griefers that join servers just to team kill, our Oz servers have their fair share of them,
wouldn't instant death make their job harder.

Would stop people from going on rampages killing teammates left, right and center and at the same time force all players to choose their targets properly.

But team killing = insta death is not what this thread is about, hey it's an idea, take it or leave it.

I don't think I can explain it any better or suggest any more than I have why I think it should be implemented,
all I ask is that you (the developers) consider this idea as a valid one.

I expect that all the people who don't care about shooting collaborators and who don't care about the dev's attempt to make another side of gameplay by including the collaborators in PR will hate this idea and you will probably voice your opinions here.

And since it's been made aware to us that the dev's aren't really fussed if we like something or not and they make the mod according to how they see fit
I'm more interested in the dev's opinion of this suggestion and hopefully an R-DEV or two can give me some feedback.

Peace out

Oh cry me a river please

stop trying to get shot don;t throw the rock if you cant take the spawn time

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