Project Reality Forums

Agreed.
Sidenote question: I actually found a bunch of people using mumble for the first time a few days ago. Because it tends to be virtually empty most of the time =(
And I kept hearing people nearby, like right beside me, but I couldn't find anyone, I'm not really sure what this is all about.
Could someone explain it to me?

kf_reaper wrote:hay the VOIP right now really sucks. but it would be really nice to have an SL coms over command coms.
but for now what me and my friends do we use Xfire wan were all SL and we run an INF and APC or ground spoting recon team with CAS "works really good!! but ya it works pritty well for us.

but to have an SL coms would be really nice and just do away with the command coms and the commander too

I like the idea of SL coms. I think that would be used to good effect if you had a server full of squads that played their roles well (attack, defend, transport, armor, etc.)

The problem I see is not communication so much, but that there are a good many people who for whatever reason want to play PR but have no interest in being team players or to go for objectives.

It amazes me how some players try to make every game they play suit their style instead of sticking with games that are already out there and made to their taste. God forbid they try something new and might accidentally like it.

TPM-TWISTED- wrote:but that there are a good many people who for whatever reason want to play PR but have no interest in being team players or to go for objectives.

Invariably "being team players" for a vast number of PR snobs is either: indulging in a group fantasy where they're real soldiers; acting like a brain-dead sheep following the herd and getting the snot kicked out of them for the privilege.

Why the latter? Because numerical superiority creates the illusion of tactical superiority. "Woohoo guys, we worked as a team and we greased that lone-wolfer. And all it took was a protracted 10 minute firefight and three casualties to our squad to do it! Yeehaa!" <eyeroll>

Never occurred to you that one person is harder to spot than a squad? And that on your own you can scope out obscure areas without obliging 5 other players to come with you only to discover it is empty after all? Personally, I find often find soloing objectives to be easier than working in a squad, as I am a lot less obtrusive - and if I walk into an ambush, it's only me that gets greased, not the whole squad. Five individuals moving on a firebase from different directions only need one person to succeed in sneaking up and dropping an incendiary. If you have a full squad approaching, you're gonna get stuck in a pitched battle as soon as any single member gets spotted, and that's going to get you nowhere.

It amazes me how some players try to make every game they play suit their style instead of sticking with games that are already out there and made to their taste. God forbid they try something new and might accidentally like it.

And of course it couldn't be that these people tried squadding up, and found all the milsim posturing and the sheer stupidity of the tactics foisted upon them painfully constraining and counter-productive?

Wicca wrote:I think forcing mumble on PR is a good idea, and i support it.

It is more realistic..

Also i would like to hear what the enemy says, i mean if i can order my squad to be quiet, and we would all be behind a wall listening in on an enemy position we could easily hear any "intelligence" worth telling the rest of the team. Or we could scare them, or use psychology to kill people ( Not mind power, but traps etc.) which woul give a completly new level of gameplay, so yeah! GO MUMBLE!

That's one of the reasons I will never ever want it. How do you like that somebody outputs his music all the time from mic and distracts everyone? Or somebody doing his mic-checks/playing music/talking shit to all the 32 players?

IIRC , it can be done so it will automatically do everything for you. and why would you not like to talk to every person on server by just walking up to them?

This can be abused too.

IMO the game needs only working SL-to-SL communications and if it can be integrated somehow to PR, that's great. But that current mumble foolishness should be left outside

Even when you have global voice chat there will still be smack-tards that will use the APC's as light transport but hey thats just online gaming for you

I do agree with this idea however. As it will be a lot easier to get things going. I would like to keep the regular voip in though as than you wont have the problem of the enemy hearing your comms when sneaking around. Realistic yes, but in real life you have hand signs, a week worth of planning in front of your mission and a big training to top it of!

Zi8 wrote:That's one of the reasons I will never ever want it. How do you like that somebody outputs his music all the time from mic and distracts everyone? Or somebody doing his mic-checks/playing music/talking shit to all the 32 players?

Well, sure, theoretically. But people can just as easily do that through TeamSpeak, or just spamming ingame chat. All it requires is for people to follow simple common sense as etiquette, and if they still don't comply, just get an admin.

IMO the game needs only working SL-to-SL communications and if it can be integrated somehow to PR, that's great. But that current mumble foolishness should be left outside

I take it you've never actually used mumble? It's integration is key to many in-depth team based tactics, allowing players to perform on a whole new level, with a higher cooperation between squads. If you think that suddenly using mumble means everyone will ignore the concept of the game in favour of "mumble foolishness", then you have been misled by the threads showing it's lighter side. One of the reasons is mainly that PR is a game, and another being that people tend to record amusing events over actual gameplay.

cyberzomby wrote:Even when you have global voice chat there will still be smack-tards that will use the APC's as light transport but hey thats just online gaming for you

Yea, but I tend to believe that there are currently very few smacktards using APCs as assault vehicles, rather many people who are doing that because it's much harder to organize anything properly through team-chat, and even when it happens, it's always very simplistic. I mean, even I, having crewed an APC in 0.85, can tell you it's that much harder to have to watch out for all dangers, drive, and type simplistic instructions at the same time. Let alone the fact that I can't simply ask the SL some detailed questions that I can with mumble.

Yeah people will still use the APC's as their own light tanks but with mumble you can scream at them. ^^

Ace42 wrote:Invariably "being team players" for a vast number of PR snobs is either: indulging in a group fantasy where they're real soldiers; acting like a brain-dead sheep following the herd and getting the snot kicked out of them for the privilege.

Simply not true. I've yet to be in one of these so called 'fantasy' squads, and the latter comes down to a SL who knows the map and what he's doing. If the SL doesn't I join a new squad.

Ace42 wrote:Why the latter? Because numerical superiority creates the illusion of tactical superiority. "Woohoo guys, we worked as a team and we greased that lone-wolfer. And all it took was a protracted 10 minute firefight and three casualties to our squad to do it! Yeehaa!" <eyeroll>

1) There are indeed times where numerical superiority IS tactically superior. And times when it isn't. It's up to the players to know when numbers alone won't save them.

2) Stating a 'worst case' scenario as a description of squad play is sensationalism and is weak compared to sound logic and thoughtful argument. Save your eyerolls for yourself.

Ace42 wrote: Never occurred to you that one person is harder to spot than a squad? And that on your own you can scope out obscure areas without obliging 5 other players to come with you only to discover it is empty after all? Personally, I find often find soloing objectives to be easier than working in a squad, as I am a lot less obtrusive - and if I walk into an ambush, it's only me that gets greased, not the whole squad. Five individuals moving on a firebase from different directions only need one person to succeed in sneaking up and dropping an incendiary. If you have a full squad approaching, you're gonna get stuck in a pitched battle as soon as any single member gets spotted, and that's going to get you nowhere.

I never said there weren't times where solo players couldn't accomplish something. But if their 'accomplishments' don't achieve any map goals then they're pointless. Even individual efforts need to me made in conjunction with others. Nobody single handily wins a PR round. Did it occur to you that maybe the reason a solo player was able to take out a cache or firebase was because an entire squad was keeping the enemy busy?

Just because you're in a squad doesn't mean you have to be 6 ducks in a row. The better squad leaders will have their guys spread out or split into 2 small teams when the situation calls for it. The point is to communicate and work toward a goal, not to be within arms reach at all times.

Ace42 wrote:And of course it couldn't be that these people tried squadding up, and found all the milsim posturing and the sheer stupidity of the tactics foisted upon them painfully constraining and counter-productive?

You're not making anything more than an assumption there. And so what if you joined a **** squad once. It happens. When it happens to me I join another squad. And if that doesn't work I make my own squad. Bottom line is this game was MADE for teamwork.

Give me a team of squads over a team of lone wolves any day. We'll win every round.

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McLuv wrote:Well, Project Reality is at a milestone. It has the most teamwork found in any First Person Shooter game I've played. And yet, even after having made many gameplay changes to enforce teamwork (such as a higher reliance on APCs as transport and dedicated logistic trucks), the game is still grasping at how to get it all to come together.

It's been getting better, of course it has, but it's all still limited by poor communications. How often has it been that you haven't been able to communicate with an APC that was being engaged, and you simply thought they were trying to "be 1337 and rack up points" rather than provide you with transportation?

Personally, I think only one thing can completely secure the wanted teamwork aspect of the game: a global VoiP. Mumble, as it is, is the best candidate to be implemented, regardless of it's flaws brought on by a program not designed purely for PR. At this point, the full implementation of mumble is the only way to acheive any concrete teamwork results, imo.

Any thoughts/opinions on this?

We don't need a global VoIP. That would only clog up the VoIP and actually silence other players who would want to talk but then there are some overly loud and command giving people that just completely take over VoIP.

Squad Leaders just need to have VoIP access to other Squad Leaders, much in the way Commander and Squad Leaders can talk back and forth with each other individually.

If we want squads to work together, then we need someone to be designated above all the other squad leaders. That would be the Commander. A lot of times people do not apply to be Commander because they do not think Squad Leaders will follow their orders. All we have to do is enforce the Commander's authority much as the Squad Leader's authority is enforced. But we don't have a way to kick squad leader's from their roles, so Squad Leaders are free to reign on their own.

It would be nice if some people actually payed attention to the chat when i try to tell somebody something important.

I'm a bad fps player in general but somehow I'm good in a squad, must be the other way around for you Ace42.

MiamiHeat87 wrote:We don't need a global VoIP. That would only clog up the VoIP and actually silence other players who would want to talk but then there are some overly loud and command giving people that just completely take over VoIP.

Mumble is not global voip, it would not have this problem, you can talk Sl-SL through the Squad leader channel + force centre, it works perfectly.

All of the problems raised so far seem to be solved fine by mumble.

MiamiHeat87 wrote:We don't need a global VoIP. That would only clog up the VoIP and actually silence other players who would want to talk but then there are some overly loud and command giving people that just completely take over VoIP.
.

you realize mumble has proximity voip, IE only hear when your near them.

so in essence, the WHOLE server could be talking to each other, every single person at once. and you wont hear ANY of it. (unless everyone is standing next to each other.. :mrgreen

Invariably "being team players" for a vast number of PR snobs is either: indulging in a group fantasy where they're real soldiers; acting like a brain-dead sheep following the herd and getting the snot kicked out of them for the privilege.

Why the latter? Because numerical superiority creates the illusion of tactical superiority. "Woohoo guys, we worked as a team and we greased that lone-wolfer. And all it took was a protracted 10 minute firefight and three casualties to our squad to do it! Yeehaa!" <eyeroll>

Never occurred to you that one person is harder to spot than a squad? And that on your own you can scope out obscure areas without obliging 5 other players to come with you only to discover it is empty after all? Personally, I find often find soloing objectives to be easier than working in a squad, as I am a lot less obtrusive - and if I walk into an ambush, it's only me that gets greased, not the whole squad. Five individuals moving on a firebase from different directions only need one person to succeed in sneaking up and dropping an incendiary. If you have a full squad approaching, you're gonna get stuck in a pitched battle as soon as any single member gets spotted, and that's going to get you nowhere.

This is the coolest post I have read in this section. I feel like you. I am lone-wolfing, not VOIP using, SL order ignoring player. I got kicked by bad squad leaders for the coolest of reasons:

- After being medic for 30mins, saving 5 people from death, the SL kicks me because I spawned somewhere else to get a new kit. However in the same round medics from other squad do not give a flying f#*k about me lyind wounded 15m next to them.

- Refusing to ride with the "squad" in a truck on Muttrah. Because I KNOW THAT THIS TRUCK WILL GET OWNED by an attack huey. It happens every time. So I would rather walk all alone across the map instead of lying dead in a exploded truck together with the other teamplayer corpses. I generally NEVER EVER join in on a ride at the start of the map. I refuse to be part of the first full loaded truck to hit a mine on fools. Also, this happens EVERY time.

ill use it once i upgrade my computer...
also, at first i thought it was like ts, but im learning that it only talks to peaple arround 10-100 meters away or somthen like that?
plus, if nothen else, i usually see one person in my squad has it on, so ill ask them to relay it.

TPM-TWISTED- wrote:Simply not true. I've yet to be in one of these so called 'fantasy' squads,

Play more, try some other servers. That's my terse and simple response. My accurate, logical, rational, and utterly pointless response is:
Neither of us have the time, tools, patience or inclination to do a statistical analysis, so this is only going to boil down to anecdotal evidence, so it becomes a moot point.

The practical upshot of this is that I really don't care about your experience, it has no bearing on mine whatsoever, people can decide how accurately my generalisation applies to them based on their experience, contingent on how open minded and attentive they are.

1) There are indeed times where numerical superiority IS tactically superior. And times when it isn't. It's up to the players to know when numbers alone won't save them.

Indeed, I concur fully, and if I gave the impression I disagree with this, please accept my apologies. I was using hyperbole to reinforce my point and try to convey it in an amusing and readable manner.

2) Stating a 'worst case' scenario as a description of squad play is sensationalism and is weak compared to sound logic and thoughtful argument. Save your eyerolls for yourself.

Actually, hyperbole is an excellent rhetorical device, which I was using purely illustratively, rather than as a piece of formal logic. But if we're going to start talking about logic, be aware that I noted your use of a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid.

I never said there weren't times where solo players couldn't accomplish something. But if their 'accomplishments' don't achieve any map goals then they're pointless.

So, in effect, you WERE saying that solo players couldn't accomplish something, as you were marginalising all their accomplishments? Make your mind up. Either acknowledge lone-wolfers can be productive and stop trying to distract from this by slipping in qualifications you have no intention of defending; or say they can't be productive and face the backlash of people citing exceptions when you do.

Even individual efforts need to me made in conjunction with others. Nobody single handily wins a PR round. Did it occur to you that maybe the reason a solo player was able to take out a cache or firebase was because an entire squad was keeping the enemy busy?

By that argument no-one is a "lone-wolfer" by virtue of the purely coincidental effect they have on other squads.

The better squad leaders will have their guys spread out or split into 2 small teams when the situation calls for it.

As do the worse squad-leaders too. The profligate use of tactical manoeuvres has no bearing on the quality of teamplay or gameplay experience. This is the error I am seeking to address, and one that is ignored wholesale by the community at large.

The point is to communicate and work toward a goal, not to be within arms reach at all times.

Because you know better than a squad-leader or its members what they joined for?

You're not making anything more than an assumption there.

No, I was posing a rhetorical question. The point of that rhetorical technique was to CALL INTO QUESTION a previous assumption, not to provide a definitive alternative explanation.

Bottom line is this game was MADE for teamwork.

And?

Give me a team of squads over a team of lone wolves any day. We'll win every round.

What if the team of squads were all blind, playing on 56k modems the other side of the world from the server and were all newbs, and the lone wolves were all hyper-experienced, skilled, using the best technology, near to the server, and using aimbots?

No? Then perhaps we should avoid making facile claims like the above, if you insist on us sticking to strict logical argument?

I feel like you. I am lone-wolfing, not VOIP using, SL order ignoring player.

I very seldom "lone-wolf" per se; if I did I'd not feel justified in posting, nor care about the ineptness of squad mates. However, as squad-leaders are invariably inept and self-absorbed ego-maniacs, and there's frequent loss (or absence) of forward spawn points, lack of medical care, and poor tactical decision making - squads are generally scattered, fragmented, and thus full of people 'lone-wolfing' inadvertently.

Due to unavoidable loss of squad cohesion, I spend a lot of time "lone-wolfing" accidentally. I say "accidentally", that implies randomness. Is it accidental that I'm not in the truck that gets RPGd? Or that the medic's too incompetent to get me up when I get sniped? Etc, etc.

A few things really piss me off.

1. People refusing to even try Mumble or pay attention to critical details about it so that they don't make fools of themselves making incorrect assesments. Primarily this means when people talk about some dreaded global voip that'll spam everything. Well... thats what TS is. Its everyone talking together, the channels exist to filter the voices into groups that use them and aren't too big, the key binds are there to expand the accessiblity to information.

All this can be simplified to one button and one server and one channel in Mumble. You sit next to a pilot and tell him where you want to go, how to get there, chat about condition on the ground if he's been through there recently. Its like TS but you don't have to get a password, change a channel, or any of that.

Its easier but people are stupid and rigid.

2. People saying they'd leave PR if forced to use Mumble... wtf. It obviously wouldn't supplant the default Voip structure but instead complement it. You use Voip for squad comms and you use Mumble for cross squad communication. A simple, 'hey medic heal me' or 'don't go around that corner, there's an APC' and all this being done with people not in your squad and not needing to effectively lay down your rifle to type it in chat.

You quit cause of an extra feature? Thats like saying you'll quit PR if they make grenade spam less tasty than BF2... but then thats why we're here: for the heightened teamwork.

3. Who cares if you're a great lone wolfer or independent mind. You're not better than a well oiled squad. You can say you're better than a crappy one but thats not comparison. A shitty donkey drawn cart is faster than a rusted out Ferrari in someone's garage, doesn't mean the red monster fresh from the dealer is just as bad.

Some things you'll do better than 6 guys, but not everything. Well coordinated squads with smart strategic and tactical sense can do anything one guy can, even if its as simple as saying 'hey you go in there alone cause it'll be stealthier'. The math doesn't lie. One group of six can fragment into as many as 6 pieces, but an army of one is always just one.

PFunk wrote: 3. Who cares if you're a great lone wolfer or independent mind. You're not better than a well oiled squad. You can say you're better than a crappy one but thats not comparison. A shitty donkey drawn cart is faster than a rusted out Ferrari in someone's garage, doesn't mean the red monster fresh from the dealer is just as bad.

Given that you're much more likely to see a rusted out Ferrari in a garage than the red monster fresh from the dealer in PR at the moment, it's actually a much more sensible comparison.

-Stop using crappy analogies. Lonewolves suck, so do bad teamplayers and stupid people. If you have issues with the teamwork on a server then you either leave or you take charge. Lonewolfing is simply becoming part of the problem and when you do that you lose your right to whine.