Merlin

[Pence]

Eddie Baker']The British had (maybe still have somewhere) a similar vehicle called the Longline or Cobra Light Strike Vehicle. However, during Operation Desert Storm the LSV proved to be a disappointment. A special operations version of the Land Rover, a modernized "pink panther," is still used by SAS mobility troops. Versions of a vehicle called the "SupaCat" have also been suggested for use by UK special operations forces.

In the Persian Gulf War the SAS used the DPV, the one in my IN COMBAT magazine has a minigun in the passenger seat and no rear seat (Minigun ammo stowage).

If you have IN COMBAT its the Kiwait liberation page, right next to the "British troops do not use anti-personal mines" headline.

[Eddie Baker]

In the Persian Gulf War the SAS used the DPV, the one in my IN COMBAT magazine has a minigun in the passenger seat and no rear seat (Minigun ammo stowage).

If you have IN COMBAT its the Kiwait liberation page, right next to the "British troops do not use anti-personal mines" headline.

The SAS did use a vehicle like the DPV depicted in BF2, but it isn't identical. This is the Cobra/Longline LSV. Is it the one pictured in your article?

[Pence]

Eddie Baker']The SAS did use a vehicle like the DPV depicted in BF2, but it isn't identical. This is the Cobra/Longline LSV. Is it the one pictured in your article?

No, the one in my artical is heading left with two guys in, the driver is holding a L85 (I thought the SAS dont use it) and anyway i think it is the same one, nice find Eddie, your astute military mind is one of the greatest assets to PR and scares the coke out of my bladder.

Edit: We were suposed to get a scanner last month, i supose i should have asked my dad wile we were in London, hes at god dam work again. I am telling you; if i dont get it this week then ill cut his cars tires.

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

Pence i am seeing a good relationship with your dad and when you feel unloved you "cut his cars tires.", how sweet.

[Eddie Baker]

No, the one in my artical is heading left with two guys in, the driver is holding a L85 (I thought the SAS dont use it)

Well, the LSV apparently isn't/wasn't just used by the SAS. The photo here shows it on a display with the Royal Green Jackets (a light infantry unit) in 2003.



I know you're kidding about cutting the tires, but damn, dude. Anger management.

[Gaz]

The RGJ did not use any of that equipment in Op TELIC, and nor did any other British Forces Eddie. SupaCats were EVERYWHERE though.

I also remember teaching a despatch rider how to START his bike.........

[Eddie Baker]

Gaz']I also remember teaching a despatch rider how to START his bike.........

Yikes.

[Pence]

Eddie Baker']
I know you're kidding about cutting the tires, but damn, dude. Anger management.

Kidding?

Yea, but if your dad worked more than he brethes then you would be anoyed.

[Malik]

If a large transport as mentioned is going to be implemented, I think that brings on the idea of having a full fourth tier of transport. Vehicle carrying, amoured transport helicopters with light defences. Chopper classes would appear as:

Light Transport Helicopter (Little Bird)
Medium Transport Helicopter (Blackhawk and equivalents)
Heavy Transport Helicopter (Merlin and equivalents)
Attack Helicopter

Compare that to vBF2's two classes.

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

I am not completely sure, i belive thing should be kept simple to a certian degree:
IF we cosider having jsut light and heavy transport choppers it would be simpler. THe factors we face that should affect are desision are:

- how it intergrates and supports a 6 man squad
- the capabilities of an engine.
- clear differences between vehicles, make a tactical descission, each vehicle has obvious differences
- how affect gameplay generaly

Anexample of jsut having 2 types of heli and the loads they could possibley carry:
Light transport should carry 6-7
Heavy transport should carry 9- 13.

The reason for each number:
6 - engine can handle it no probs, can carry a whole sqaud BUT it can not easily do ferry runs cos there is no space for 1 s and a pilot.
7 - all the advantages of 6 but can easily do ferry runs BUT this might pose difficulties due to the engine

9- can carry a whole squad, can easily do ferry runs, can also support 2 extra men on the side machine/mini guns BUT it can only carry 1 6 man squad, again could have engine problems implamenting it
12 - can carry 2 squads, this enablign large assults BUT this can not do ferry runs that well due to no space for a pilot, could again face engine problems
13 - can carry 2 squads, easily complete ferry runs, enable large assults BUT could have even greater difficulties implamenting due to extreme number of people in the heli.


However after considerably delibaration, the idea fo having 3 types appeals more to me.
So if we did have three types, a possible number a passengers for each is:
LIGHT = 6 -7
MEDIUM = 9
HEAVY = 13

However at present we need to consider carefully what helicopters fit best each type. Any opinions on the above!??

[Malik]

Light helicopters will be unarmed, poorly armoured helicopters with minimal defence for passengers. They'll basically be used to get troops from A to B without having to deal with terrain.

Medium helicopters are already in the game. They won't need to be adjusted, though I'm sure another seat could be thrown in to allow for, like you said, one dedicated pilot to be able to transport a whole squad without them having to abandon the chopper. If we do this, pushing it to 8 could work, having a front seat passenger in control of light armaments perhaps? It would use the duel vehicle theory having two people getting in the front and 6 in the back with no way of switching from front seat positions to back seat.

Heavy helicopters would carry a lot more. They'd be able to handle a four man dedicated crew (pilot, coopilot, two gunners). In the back would be a jeep (6 men) and probably a riding crew of a further 6 men. The coopilot would probably have to control a vehicle release device. Thanks to 1.3 patch it could well be possible to attach a parachute to the humvee as well, so the helicopter could well be used to drop off jeeps from the sky, and they'd have to 'reload' from a helipad, although it'd take a long time for the next vehicle to be ready for dispatchal (just like rearming missiles, only the time would be much longer. Players could board the humvee inside the chopper from a helipad, but if the humvee respawns in the air it just drops empty. Maybe a rear door system could be implemented controlled by the coopilot. He can drop it open (subsequently ejecting any present vehicles) or close it (returning cover to the passengers) and even if there're no vehicles inside it gives the passengers somewhere to fire from.

We already have the Little Bird for the light role, and the two designs used for recon choppers in Armoured Fury would definetely be candidates for the MEC and China sides. Medium choppers are already in the game, that's no problem, just throw in the extra seat. As for the heavy option, it's hard to decide. Most real life heavy copters are capable of holding a lot more men than would be required for an in game feature, such as the chinook, but I don't see why something like that can't be used.

Light choppers would be available on some 16 player maps and for special purposes on 32 and 64 player maps. Medium choppers would be frequent on 32 and 64 maps. Heavy choppers would almost solely be used on 64, but for special purposes 32 would work. They'd have a crew size of 16 men using the aforemention system, a bit too much for 16 player maps I'd say.

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

I agree with most of what you are saying. It is just the passenger and crew numbers. If we have 3 types i am absoultely sure how many each should carry. EACH TYPE SHOULD BE SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT, this means they can carry atleast 2 more and of possible 3 +.

At present i think the Littlebird is the only light Heli. And if these are on mainly small maps then having a payload of 6 would be fine becuase ferry ones would not be necessary due to such a small number of palyers, with one squad jsut hopping round the map together.

Medium Helis as you rightly said would be one 32, 64 maps. There payload MUST BE 9. This is the most appropriate number, with 1 full squad and 3 crew memeber. THis is fairly simple in certain repsects, and allows for excellent ferriing ability with a decent protection from 2 gunners. I could also allow 2 small 4 man squads AND a pilot to return the heli.
For exmaple in a black hawk this would mean jsut freeing up on seat jsut behind one of the gunners and 2 seats on the back row. This remains realistic and is by far the best for teamwork overall and fun gameplay.

Heavy helis such as the MErlin and possibly a chinhook would only be on 64 maps as again you rightly siad. To ensure that htey are consirderebly better at transporting large payloads we could allow them to transport 2 suqads. THis means a total payload of 13 men. This again allows for a pilot WHO in both medium and ehavy helis is vital of ferrying purposes.
THis is slightly different to your idea of them jsut being vehicle transports which i like alot.
If we they could carry 12 normal troops we could also probaly allow them to carry 2 jeeps in the back. However this could become very complicate intersm of getting it to work with the engine.

Medium and light helis i think are far simpler int terms of payload and role BUt the role and payload of Heavies is very very debatable.

[Malik]

Medium won't have nine. It's important that each aircraft has an even number of seats, it just makes sense to do that. Mediums can have two in the front, two gunners and two guys hanging from either side, or two out the back in the case of MEC. By throwing a car in the back of the heavy choppers we're making it easier to divide the vehicle into seperate vehicles. one squad in the car, one squad just seating in the back and a four man team running the plane about. Large helicopters like that would offer unmatched support in large battles, they'd probably automatically have all the unit support features (medic, supply, repair etc). Heck, there could be a troop only version carrying 12 in the back (in two squad sub sections) and it could drop supply crates instead of vehicles.

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

Even numbers are not taht good. Becuase PR will never be truely realistic and at present a navigotor is no use. And putting a randoms in the navigators place is treason!
The idea behind 9 is to trasport a whole squad and then have 3 crew members.
IF YOU WNAWT TO HAVE FERRYING YOU MUST HAVE AN ODD NUMBER, UNLESS YOU GET A NAVIGATOR.
And if you are going to provide me with a decent navigator sytstem then go ahead and do so.

p.s i prefer troops to sit in seats, and only once or sits have been filled, have guys hanging or with legs over edge. IT is reckless adn generally dangerous! also you pick up loads of enemy fire adn it hurts.

[Malik]

They sit on the edge so they can get the hell out of their ASAP.

As for the passenger, who said he'd navigate? New features could be added to give him some purpose, such as him having control over the countermeasures, if we ever see guns put back on the transport we can have him in control of them. And he could make the coopilot a spotter too, pointing out any threats to the helicopter. There's no harm in using the front seat. And what about if the driver bails or disconnects? The other passengers can't access the cockpit section...

Passengers will be seated in the armoured transport and hanging from the medium, so they actually pose a threat in combat rather than sitting all snug in seats with their seatbelts on. The heavy transports will have the opening at the back (controlled by the coopilot) and the gun ports near the front which are operated by the 4 man pilot crew. 6 passengers sit on either side facing each other and have good vision of the outside, or if there's a hummer 3 on each side with 6 in the hummer waiting for the drop. The door opening and cargo release buttons could be two seperate controls so the hummer could even be used as a weapon while still in the back.

[six7]

i love your ideas about dropping HMMWVs from the heavy choppers. I think, if possible, it would be neat if all the passengers in the back of a medium or heavy helo (not the pilot or gunners) could get parachutese so we can have some HALO and LALO jumps. The medium helicopter should carry a pilot, 2 crew cheifs (guners) and a full squad of six in the back. IRL, the gunners would be trained, designated soldiers, not just some random idiots going for a ride.

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

About medium chopper, should we have 8 or 9 or 10.
8 = 1 squad, and 2 crew sitting in front seat. With the second crew memebr either navigating (a new system) or operating some form of basic rocket.

9 = 1 squad, and 3 crew with 2 operating a machine// mini gun and 1 inthe pilots seat. ALSO this could transport 2 - 4man squads if required.

10 = 1 squad, and 4 crew with 2 operating a machine/ mini gun and 2 in the front seats. With the second crew memebr either navigating (a new system) or operating some form of basic rocket. ALSO this could transport 2 - 4 man squads, identical to 9 man version.

PERSONALLy i prefer the 9 man version. It is only a small increase but still a very important one. And its ability to transport 2 -4man squads could be very usefull in certain situation. THe 10 man just means there is another crew member who even with a new system could only paly a limited role. THis would also be very boring HOWEVER THE DEV could design a 10 man version BUT jsut temeraely make it only capable of carring 9, this could then be changed later on if it is found to improve PR gameplay.

[Malik]

Who says he needs to play a role? Like I said, without passengers being able to board the cockpit area, it'd be quite easy for a 6 man squad to set off, the pilot disconnects and they all fall to their deaths, the spec ops guys could parachute to safety and they'd be real lucky if they fell over water, but otherwise it's suicde. A coopilot would just be an extra pair of eyes and and an additional passenger to hop out at he destination. I think having dedicated gunners in medium may be overdoing the numbers, making the chopper less suitable on smaller maps, so sticking with 8 would be best really. The six man squad rides in the back, two men ride up front. Of course, it should be noted that a medic, assault or engineer sitting in the passenger seat already gives the helicopter a special ability (if that feature's still in PR, if not might as well include it for the chopper) so they needn't do anything extra to be of assistance.

Light Choppers: 6 men total. Light armaments operated by the pilot/coopilot. No crew passenger weaponry, passengers may use their own weapons where possible.

Medium Choppers: 8 men total. 2 crew members, 6 passengers. Two passenger based machine guns. Remaining passengers may fire their own weapons from openings.

Heavy Choppers: 16 men total. 4 crew members, 12 passengers/6 passengers and one occupied transport vehicle. Two crew based machine guns on each side operated by 2 of the 4 crew members. Passengers may fire from the rear opening (when it is open).

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

re - surface post




















sorry

[Pence]

If a large transport as mentioned is going to be implemented, I think that brings on the idea of having a full fourth tier of transport. Vehicle carrying, amoured transport helicopters with light defences. Chopper classes would appear as:

Light Transport Helicopter (Little Bird)
Medium Transport Helicopter (Blackhawk and equivalents)
Heavy Transport Helicopter (Merlin and equivalents)
Attack Helicopter

Just to add and change a bit:

Special (Gazelle, Kiowa)
Light Transport Helicopter (Little Bird, Dhruv)
Medium Transport Helicopter (Z-9, Lynx, Merlin, Blackhawk, Puma, Mi-17, Z-8 )
Heavy Transport Helicopter (Chinook)
Light Attack Helicopter (Lynx, WZ-9, Mi-8 )
Other Attack Helicopter (Cobra, Havok, Apache, V-10, Apache 'Longbow', Ka-50)