Project Reality Forums

Hm, the Valley seems to match the In-Game Korengal

If only squads got that big, and coordinated D:

Aka: a dozen guys are shooting in what they believe is the right direction, while Masaq is raking up the headshots.

I was talking too this old guy at Anzac firing range in Sydney hes been shooting for a long time. he was telling me the 5.62 at around 800 meters becomes very unstable and it curves, it really not a long range bullet it dead accurate at 300meters under firing range conditions but at long range it really sucks.


I don't agree with every one else by saying remove the Bullet deviation i think it one of the best things the dev's have implemented because it more of less mimic's real life bullet physics.



Plus if you removed deviation i think you would find it would destroy every thing this game has gained over the last few years. it would just encourage people too stop working so closely together and instead encourage them just lone wolf and snipe, why would you use team work when it more productive just too go out on your own and snipe,

with out the deviation it become very stupid too have people working together like we do now in 0.8 because all you have too do is spot one person and you know where roughly where every one else is Squads aren't very stealthy that Meany people together attracts attention. and with the weapons more effective and more accurate then real life sniper rifles attracting attentions and being seen is a death sentence. In 0.60 before deviation was introduced always sor entire squads wiped out by a single sniper, so it the much smarter choice just too go and hide some where and snipe by your self.


In 0.6 you simply could not work together as closely with people as you do in modern PR, and the game suffered for it, You can't not have deviation and the Team work you have now.


In fact im very surprised people still want to get rid of deviation, and have the game go back too the way it was in 0.6, not the majority but some people, if only more people here had played the old versions of PR and remembered how comparable **** it was too play compered too the new versions of PR.


Im not trying to be offensive or Volga, but it feels too me some people have really not put very much thought into what they are saying, "remove deviation" no one else has thought or put much thought into why it there or what would happen if it was removed. nor made any anticipation what would happen.


That mind set resembles to me the attitude of jumping of a cliff too see what down there. "let jump of this cliff and see how deep it is, weeee Oh fuck jagged rocks."

RHYS4190 wrote:I was talking too this old guy at Anzac firing range in Sydney hes been shooting for a long time. he was telling me the 5.62 at around 800 meters becomes very unstable and it curves, it really not a long range bullet it dead accurate at 300meters under firing range conditions but at long range it really sucks.


I don't agree with every one else by saying remove the Bullet deviation i think it one of the best things the dev's have implemented because it more of less mimic's real life bullet physics.



Plus if you removed deviation i think you would find it would destroy every thing this game has gained over the last few years. it would just encourage people too stop working so closely together and instead encourage them just lone wolf and snipe, why would you use team work when it more productive just too go out on your own and snipe,

with out the deviation it become very stupid too have people working together like we do now in 0.8 because all you have too do is spot one person and you know where roughly where every one else is Squads aren't very stealthy that Meany people together attracts attention. and with the weapons more effective and more accurate then real life sniper rifles attracting attentions and being seen will get you killed. In 0.60 i sor entire squads wiped out by a single sniper,

In fact im very surprised people still want to get rid of deviation, and have the game go back too the way it was in 0.6, not the majority but some people, if only more people here had played the old versions of PR and remembered how comparable **** it was too play compered too the new versions of PR.


Im not trying to be offensive or volger, but it feels too me some people have realy not put very much thought into what they are saying, "remove deviaton" no one else has thought or put much thought into why it there or what whould happed if it was removed. nor made any antisipationed what whould happen.


That mind set resembles to me the attitude of jumping of a cliff too see what down there. "let jump of this cliff and see how deep it is, weeee Oh fuck jagged rocks."

Hehe Same goes with using enemy vehicles. Or jumping out of moving vehicles... Some people forget to see it the other way around and from the enemy's perspective.

Bullets are not lasers they don't fly in a straight line, nor under battle field conditions are they very accurate. on the battle field you don't get a very good view of what your shooting at usually your target is hiding behind a object and only a small portion of his body is exposed, and hes being evasive hes not sitting there like a big dumb buck you shot at home on your property who kindly stands there nice still chewing on his cud patiently waiting for you to put a bullet through his head, hes a human being who moving around using his environment and every thing at his disposal to prevent you from even getting a descent bead on him. nore do you get a lot of time to aim being your getting fired upon you self and being just as evasive that does not leave you any time in which to really aim. all you can really do is take pot shots at the enemy, if you tried to take you time and make a good shot like you do on a range taking your time leaving your self exposed you'ed get killed.

And that why deviation is in the game to simulate real battle field conditions.

Don't get me started on deviation, id quite readily go too iraq get shot at first hand to prove too every one why it accurately portrays real battle field conditions and why it should be in the game.



Hehe Same goes with using enemy vehicles. Some people forget to see it the other way around, from the enemy's perspective.

Hay that guy stole are plane mommy!!!!!!!!! wahhhhhh. thank god that does not happen any more, one time on Bf2 i guy stole a plane from my team, For the next hour i heard nothing but complaining and moahning. and a five year old crying in my ear because he had got the assumption that it was his plane and no one else was allowed to fly it, and it had been stolen from him.

No thanks mate i could do with out that

Dr2B Rudd wrote:Yeah lol, on mesita I got my squad south of the east tower in support of another squad. the enemy fired from the tower, I say to my squad, shoot the tower. But cuz the likihood of actual kills was very low cuz of their cover, they just sat there and stared at me.

"see that attack marker?"
"shoot it"
"huh?"
"Just shoot at it"
"Look, if it makes you feel better, this is an order, shoot the marker"
*blank stares*
*SL begins 1 man supression mission to save sister squad*

You *******. You basically summed up what I was going to post!

Yea thats exactly it. People don't shoot what they can't see. I constantly say at the beginning of a round to my squads 'if I put down an attack marker and say 'shoot' then shoot at it even if you cant see'. Usually I'm shooting all the time, saying suppress. People are so reluctant to shoot their rifles. Honestly it is the biggest issue in game. If people fired as often as they do in real life then squads would survive more often.

Theres also the factor of the effectiveness of SLs giving fire orders. You have to be clear. You have to assume that everyone else doesn't have the situational awareness that you have, which is usually true since you're the guy that wants to SL. You're used to figuring out that stuff. These guys don't know shit unless you tell them half the time.

Clear fast fire orders and repeat until your mom is coming into your room to wipe the froth off your mouth.

EDIT. I might also add thats a good example of SLing there. Telling guys to spread out, which terrain to take. And that bit about the scissors made me laugh cause I thought of band of brothers.

With Iron sights, I tend to fire quite a lot at people, even those across the street from me, because it works better, but with scopes, it is possible to fire the same amount of shots and be dead accurate. While this may seem unrealistic, perhaps scope magnification should be halved, to correspond to the small scale of PR engagements (within 500m instead of beyond).

irons i shoot anyway i shoot at were the tracers are going and shoot in single fire 3-4 shots usually thats cus im medic or R spec in INS but i do that for every thing i dont usually shoot to kill at long range just burst shots im usualy one out of 2 people suppressing while i hear painfully slow firing shots by my squad

Most of the time, My SL will basically place a marker on the enemy that the iron sights cant see and we will have a mad minute, firing full-auto onto the marker. The reason? you always die with 6 full unused clips anyway, better put it to good use But if the target is within effective range(IMO 300m) then we will just aim and shoot.

lol... AYE BUDDAY!!!!1

cool video. makes me wonder if PR would look more realistic by making 3 adjustments.
raising the gamma of the sky
dulling the colours overall
and making those epic looking animations like where he was geting stuff out of his bag and reloading his mag at the end.

Its simply becaue those soldiers are acting how soldiers are trained to react to an ambush - throw a ton of lead back at the enemy and move away from where you were ambushed to a better position. In PR people react how they've been conditioned to react - by taking careful aim and attempting to pop as many heads a possible.

Its a two way street

While your squad is tossing lead down range and actively supressing the ambushers. They are wating 4 seconds and taking aimed shots at you.

Portable.Cougar wrote:Its a two way street

While your squad is tossing lead down range and actively supressing the ambushers. They are wating 4 seconds and taking aimed shots at you.

Ofcourse Altough when the surpression effect kicks in and they get hit once (messes up aim 'cause they move) the surpressors will get the better part. But I agree with you.

Funny how we had so many people, even active military, suggest that UGL's reload faster. Look how long it took him to reload his!

'[R-DEV wrote:Jaymz;1026950']Funny how we had so many people, even active military, suggest that UGL's reload faster. Look how long it took him to reload his!

Out of curiosity, what's the maximum effective range for UGL's anyways? Because that engagement was a relatively long one, and the markings on the sight only go up to 300 meters, right?

CAS_117 wrote:

+ 50% VD on long axis of map - Reviving - Rally spawn

= Win

jigsaw-uk wrote:Try conducting a firefight with 2 infantry units a kilometre apart in game and see how many men get hit...

Check out the bit in bold

What I meant was try an equivalent firefight to the video with M16s etc and see what happens... f*** all.

jigsaw-uk wrote:Check out the bit in bold

What I meant was try an equivalent firefight to the video with M16s etc and see what happens... f*** all.

I'm pretty sure that a 5.56 wouldn't kill someone a kilometer away. They use 7.62x51mm, and if we wanna the vaunted long firefights, as I have said for years, view distance needs to be much farther. (If it were up to me it would be between 100 and 100 percent). Like lemme write some of these changes down in plain view:

1. Scopes + Lower deviation on Rifles = Ability to engage point targets under 200m is high. This is not the problem: many counties give magnifications on ALL rifles as standard issue.
2. No zoom on support weapons (fixed I know) + Limited access to (and high discouragement of using) support weapons = No reliable base of fire + everyone just charges in + Homogeneous units consisting entirely of rifles and medics
3. Excessive Mobility of personnel (sprint) + Inability to manipulate weapon (can't move with scope raised + inability to suppress while moving) = Inability to perform under 50m with reliability.
4. Low view distance means that even if the support weapons were available and reliable, they would be of marginal use.
5. Fire support is rare = no point of pinning down a target (this coupled with the speed of the average infantrymen even carrying many kilograms of ammunition, armor, and cumbersome weapons like Eryx missiles and sniper rifles)

So we get:

• Understrength squads being forced to use nothing short of human wave tactics because:
• Players are discouraged (from various directions, mostly the forums; and those individuals know who they are...) from using weapons that kill the enemy effectively and PREVENT casualties (LMG, DM, Grenadier), and use kits that provide ACCOMMODATION and therefore ENCOURAGEMENT of casualties (medics); when you subsidize something you get more of it. I mean pilots these days are scared shitless of going below 2000m! Why? Cause they Anti Air will rape them unless they really know what they are doing! The second they hear that deedledeedledeedle they are tossing flares and breaking, invariably! Bullets need to be scary. I can fire many magazines and I still see people just sitting out in the open because they know that (even though I am firing from a supported standing position) that laying prone still means they will have a more accurate shot, and likely hit my face. Rally point spawns and medics make the game "nicer" at the detriment of pretty much everything else.
• Support weapons being generally poor. Out-ranged by scopes, usually unavailable, and because of the short view distance, almost guarantees that the range of engagements will be below 100m. Squad cohesion breaks down at close ranges because:
• Arcs become WIDER as range decreases, accuracy of incoming fire is extremely high, but CQB is generally undesirable because:
• You can't walk with any speed with your scope raised, therefore its faster to sprint around corners and prone dive, or fire from the hip (which is inaccurate, as it should be). PLAYERS ARE ENCOURAGED TO SPRINT AROUND AND NOT COVER EACH OTHER BECAUSE THEY CANNOT RAISE THEIR WEAPONS AND MOVE. And if you attempt to walk with your gun raised there are a dozen pissed of US army soldiers running at you who didn't, and now the next problem comes into play:

Tunnel vision on combat sights such as ACOGs.

This is how an ACOG should look:

Untitled-1

Wow its almost like they designed it like that

NO.

STOP.


Do not say "CAS we can't have 2 levels of zoom etc lol!" Now I am talking about realistic capability. Now I ask you, how big should a soldiers field of view be while using an acog? You have 2 eyes, and one of them has 25% of its view (I am not including the gun blocking his right side so bear with me). Then 0.25 + 1 = 1.25/2 = 0.625 x 100 = 62.5% of his FOV should be visible. That's a lot better than the current 15 - 20% that is available now huh?

• So you don't raise your weapon and you can't aim. Now you raise your weapon now you can't move, or see? Worse yet you have to wait a few beats in order to raise your rifle. So raising your gun to the firing position under 50m is almost lunacy! Running around unable to fire is looking better all the time . Is this what "teamwork" is about? Making kits hard to get, removing vehicles, and adding so many unwritten rules and timers but then miss the the basic capabilities of soldiers? How about less "teamwork" and more attention to "can a player do things that a soldier can do?". And here's the thing, you would get more teamwork and more cohesion from that approach than trying to directly cause it. You want realistic behavior you have to give realistic capability.
• But you see playing as infantry in PR is kind of between a rock and a hard place. You are stuck either trying to pick the enemy off from long distance, but that's not reliable because of the low VD, deficiencies of support weapons (I have yet to see squads use a base of fire in pub games. Ever.), but also because of the general lack of fire support, suppression is pretty much pointless (except for Barracuda imo). And players are forced into clumsy CQB situations where its often better to not bring your gun to bear, or just prone dive, or use the pistol (as seen in 0.8, or knife as my personal favorite).
• And lastly commanders in 0.5 were the best I have ever seen them. He can issue squads fire support in return for them obeying him. If you think the commander is functional now I would hate to see what you think him being dysfunctional is. I mean I don't see the problem with:

Respond to contact -> Break contact/Engage-> Pin down enemy -> Flank, Assault, Request Fire support

STOP RIGHT THERE!

It is NOT BF2 Arty. Commanders still need the squad leaders to request it. But otherwise it should be pretty frequent, even like 4 or 5 shells is good. If Howitzers are too much, I am certain even small units have ample access to mortars.

So that is "Remedial Infantry 110:" by CAS.

*Edit: and God saw the LMG changes, and he called them "win".

[R-COM]cyberzomby wrote:I think his point will also be that in-game everyone is trying to snipe. You see the cameraman here firing of a lot of random shots to surpress. That wont happen a lot in a game. The point of the game will still be to kill the enemy in the mindsets of most gamers. I dont think it has anything to do with the way the wounds and deaths work. its just people shoot very different. And the point of close range is valid.

Amazing images in that video btw!

^ This

Tbh I think that the minimum deviation in PR has been set a little too low and the maximum deviation set a little too high. I see a lot when I'm in a squad where all the riflemen with ACOGs are firing one shot every 3 seconds accurately, this normally ends up with them getting maybe 1 kill and then dying. I find it's only really the guys with ironsights that keep constant suppressing fire and they're the ones who suffer as they get taken down by the opponents scopes who are also only firing one accurate shot every 3 seconds.

I think this could be solved by increasing minimum deviation by a bit so people can't headshot from 200-300 metres away - The distances in PR just don't compliment a good firefight when people are headshotting. I also think the maximum deviation should be lowered so that people can have better reflexes in CQC, with the hit registration improvements and the lack of prone jumping being introduced people will have to work harder but it just doesn't feel realistic that when people come across each other at close range they both continually fire for 10 seconds until one of them gets lucky. I don't know about anyone else, but I find that it's frustrating at close ranges and it discourages people from getting in close and personal when half the shots aren't registered and most of the shots miss anyway.

I also agree that rally points should be removed but that could promote lone wolfing when people get bored waiting for friends to respawn. And finally "If you have to retreat every time you get ambushed and call in arty" I'd say that calling in arty, especially calling in friendly aircraft in PR is quite fun, Watching your enemy get blown to bits in a cloud of smoke.

Do not say "CAS we can't have 2 levels of zoom etc lol!" Now I am talking about realistic capability. Now I ask you, how big should a soldiers field of view be while using an acog? You have 2 eyes, and one of them has 25% of its view (I am not including the gun blocking his right side so bear with me). Then 0.25 + 1 = 1.25/2 = 0.625 x 100 = 62.5% of his FOV should be visible. That's a lot better than the current 15 - 20% that is available now huh?

You're forgetting that this is on a limited FOV anyway, you can't have the same vision in a game as IRL because you're playing on a screen.
If the scope picture was as big in r/l as it is in the game, soldiers would be using some sort of megabinocs.

You know, about the deviation, I will say 2 things:

1) 0,6 kind of deviation, very accurate = I am much more willing to open fire constantly on the enemy, its likely a shot will hit but I can keep firing accurately.

2) 0.8, 0.85 deviation = best approach is to just wait for an accurate shot and boom. This is because of the short view distance (easy to take an accurate shot after the wait) and the deviation added from moving/shooting.

And add into this fact that as said, people won´t fear fire, medics are too effective, even when limited, rallies are near also.

Solution imo:

1) Deviation a la 0.6 with prone diving penalties 1.5 patch will bring and a very slight movement penalty.

2) View distance raised.

3) Revive removed (it already takes 2/3 shots to kill someone, if you get hit once, just pull back and get medical attention.


Now someone will come and say "well thats just going to remove teamwork".

No.

As we have found out in combined arms, much more deadly and realistic weapons tends to make it more necessary to work together and more importantly will make it fun to do so. You are the owner of a deadly weapon so not completely useless but you will want that extra help and to help the others. Especially since increased view distance makes seeing things more difficult and the deadliness of the enemy means you really need that support.