Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 12:15
... ?!?! that makes no sense...assets should be made as realistic as possible. SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY.
Project Reality Forums
PR needs a big overhaul.
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Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 12:20
Go join the damn army or play arma. PR is a great game, to have the game ultra realistic would cause more whining and more problems. The Devs have the right ideas, look at what they have done so far, created a fun game that is fairly realistic.
A recent example of the ultra realistic improvement is the LMG's. Now they are as powerfull and deadly as they are in RL, however look how many complain about them and look how annoying they can be, especially as it requires little to no skill at all to use. Any lone ranger can get hold of one and pwn.
People like you will ruin this game
A recent example of the ultra realistic improvement is the LMG's. Now they are as powerfull and deadly as they are in RL, however look how many complain about them and look how annoying they can be, especially as it requires little to no skill at all to use. Any lone ranger can get hold of one and pwn.
People like you will ruin this game
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 12:35
Beef, that's just silly. It's not that noob players can abuse ARs that's the problem, it's that other weapons aren't as strong as they should be. Given that the whole point of PR was to create an environment as things actually are, and not as they are perceived, I think you're pretty much completely wrong.
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 12:45
Pffft, you know there was a PR build where all weapons were accurate and powerful.Truism wrote:Beef, that's just silly. It's not that noob players can abuse ARs that's the problem, it's that other weapons aren't as strong as they should be. Given that the whole point of PR was to create an environment as things actually are, and not as they are perceived, I think you're pretty much completely wrong.
It was called 0.6 and after seeing what wtfpwn weapons do to gameplay devs decided to nerf everything in 0.7. So dunno how that got better or how Devs got the right idea here, PR is just going in circles as far as weapon deviation goes.
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 12:45
1) I think infantry combat does need some changes, but only minor tweaks to deviation. The reason you move so slowly is because you're trying to maintain your aim, if you want to move faster, lower the scope. Something that I think would improve the close quarters combat is to make the scope-in time very short, but accompany it with an initial blur (suppression type effect) to simulate the soldier focusing in. This would make combat quicker up close and perhaps less "spray and pray".
2) I'm not quite sure where you're going with this point, are you against the mouse controls? - They have quite precise controls in real-life which I imagine couldn't really be simulated with keyboard controls.
3) "A Beyond Visual Range missile usually refers to an air-to-air missile that is capable of engaging at ranges beyond 20 nautical miles" - What would be the point?... plus the fact that implementing ECM/radar jammers is probably hardcoded
4) I've seen more teamwork with the new changes brought by 0.86 than before and it's also more fun than in previous versions.
Tbh most of the things you mentioned are implemented in CA minimod, although I'm not sure that it has made things more "simple" as there's a lot more to control and more complexity, because in the roots to getting more realistic behaviour from weapons with the Bf2 engine, comprimises have to be made to usability.
~Ed
2) I'm not quite sure where you're going with this point, are you against the mouse controls? - They have quite precise controls in real-life which I imagine couldn't really be simulated with keyboard controls.
3) "A Beyond Visual Range missile usually refers to an air-to-air missile that is capable of engaging at ranges beyond 20 nautical miles" - What would be the point?... plus the fact that implementing ECM/radar jammers is probably hardcoded
4) I've seen more teamwork with the new changes brought by 0.86 than before and it's also more fun than in previous versions.
Tbh most of the things you mentioned are implemented in CA minimod, although I'm not sure that it has made things more "simple" as there's a lot more to control and more complexity, because in the roots to getting more realistic behaviour from weapons with the Bf2 engine, comprimises have to be made to usability.
~Ed
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 12:49
I have to tell you, my self and my clan have supported the PR mod since version 7 and some of us like the =DaM= clan have spent many thousands of dollars doing just that, not to mention the promotion of the mod, in fact my stats show that PR gets about 100 to 500 hits a month off of the free add we run on all of the websites I host. Now while I'm not in total agreement with Canuk, I'm starting to have a real problem with this attempt to censor and squelch the free speech of anyone who comes in here and voices a complaint.
The man had some complaints, it's that simple. it does not matter if I agree or disagree with him, he has an opinion and every God given right to it. If we the North American public are not welcome here, then let's just get that out in the open and deal with it now and we will go about our business and find something else.
I seen too many threats to lock threads because of complaints, yes I'm aware that the Devs spent a lot of time developing these releases, and I thank them, but, we the various clans have spent a lot of time and money promoting them as well, and I think we deserve a little more than go join the Army. I did, and I gave over ten years of my life to it, not three, not two but the entire decade of the 70's, I don't think that I'm going to reenlist just be permitted to play a game online.
I'm taking your advise and downloading the Arma2 demo now, if we like it I will have five servers up byt the end of the week
The man had some complaints, it's that simple. it does not matter if I agree or disagree with him, he has an opinion and every God given right to it. If we the North American public are not welcome here, then let's just get that out in the open and deal with it now and we will go about our business and find something else.
I seen too many threats to lock threads because of complaints, yes I'm aware that the Devs spent a lot of time developing these releases, and I thank them, but, we the various clans have spent a lot of time and money promoting them as well, and I think we deserve a little more than go join the Army. I did, and I gave over ten years of my life to it, not three, not two but the entire decade of the 70's, I don't think that I'm going to reenlist just be permitted to play a game online.
I'm taking your advise and downloading the Arma2 demo now, if we like it I will have five servers up byt the end of the week
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 12:54
Game should be made so if you play it "unrealistically" , youll be dead soon enough an face the punishment, or if you play it properly, youll be "awarded" with quality of the play. So it wouldnt be made limited as its now, to force players, but more of a free style, for players to realize that teamwork is better.
I have no idea how to do that tho
I have no idea how to do that tho
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 13:45
I'm not really going to download ARMA.
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 14:08
Im sorry what?Gunner wrote:If we the North American public are not welcome here, then let's just get that out in the open and deal with it now and we will go about our business and find something else.
Where on earth did that come from? Not a single person in this thread has said anything to even slightly imply that... Everyone is of course welcome to express an opinion but when complaints are made with what appears to be virtually zero forethought and a "this is wrong but I can't be arsed to think how to fix it" attitude, you have to draw the line.
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 14:23
The issue isnt complaints, its the fact that just about everything he mentioend is personal opinion but stated as if its actual bugs or failings.Gunner wrote:I have to tell you, my self and my clan have supported the PR mod since version 7 and some of us like the =DaM= clan have spent many thousands of dollars doing just that, not to mention the promotion of the mod, in fact my stats show that PR gets about 100 to 500 hits a month off of the free add we run on all of the websites I host. Now while I'm not in total agreement with Canuk, I'm starting to have a real problem with this attempt to censor and squelch the free speech of anyone who comes in here and voices a complaint.
The man had some complaints, it's that simple. it does not matter if I agree or disagree with him, he has an opinion and every God given right to it. If we the North American public are not welcome here, then let's just get that out in the open and deal with it now and we will go about our business and find something else.
I seen too many threats to lock threads because of complaints, yes I'm aware that the Devs spent a lot of time developing these releases, and I thank them, but, we the various clans have spent a lot of time and money promoting them as well, and I think we deserve a little more than go join the Army. I did, and I gave over ten years of my life to it, not three, not two but the entire decade of the 70's, I don't think that I'm going to reenlist just be permitted to play a game online.
I'm taking your advise and downloading the Arma2 demo now, if we like it I will have five servers up byt the end of the week
Ive tried to stress before, what one person hates, another loves. Which is why threads like this ALWAYS turn into what this is now. A I like ,you hate, you suck thread. They do no one any good.
If you say things need work, say why they are unrealistic or not promoting teamwork, and then suggest or test some new ideas, then of course the DEV team would be VERY glad to take a look at it.
And as for censoring posts, we only do it on the ones that really risk flame wars, have been dealt with and are removed to avoid re-ignition, or something that is simply offensive to the Team or other members
I hope I cleared some up, we dont want to be the bad guys, we just want some thought put into threads with suggestions not simply "PR needs a big overhaul"
Cheers,
Okita
p.s. Masaq posted a better post than I could, so take a look at that
p.p.s. and whats this about North Americans? Im from the US and have never felt unwanted here, though I am oblivious to many things
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 14:31
It's about time you North American folk got the message..... Took you long enough 
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 14:37
CanuckCommander wrote: I appreciate the DEV team's hardwork, but I just think that effort is made in the wrong direction. This post isn't meant to offend and Pls excuse any mistakes since I did this in a hurry.
Thank you. And please give us a bit more faith.
A new release always breeds a fairly large degree of both negative and positive reactions. I'm not lumping your post into a category but I think we could all do with alot more answers to go along with problems.
AS a general rule in any business I am much more interested in solutions than problems. Solutions also get alot more "air time" from devs in our private forums.
PR is an evolution thats for sure.
I wish you could see some of the discussion that go down internally. You might be glad to be on the outside just playing the game.
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 14:38
What does inf lasing targets have to do with dogfights?CanuckCommander wrote: A: What kind of jets these days rely on INF to lase targets? Just to name a few.
And yes,in RL planes and choppers need dudes on the ground to designate enemies,just schooting will unneceserily kill friendlys eventually.
Btw,if you dont like where this mod is goign go play CoD4 or something,noone forces you to play a game you dont like
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 14:50
What are those classes in the military called? Air Combat Controller. Just imagine one of them being in each squad
And supahpingi, please leave those last comments out... they dont help anyone and its been said over and over that they are offensive/useless/flaming
And supahpingi, please leave those last comments out... they dont help anyone and its been said over and over that they are offensive/useless/flaming
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 14:57
Sorry for my comments,just cant stand when people whine about things they get for free
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 15:17
Interesting opinion... Maybe this is a true?....Truism wrote:It's not that noob players can abuse ARs that's the problem, it's that other weapons aren't as strong as they should be.
??:Here is a part of code for:
G3 with scope
Code: Select all
rem ---BeginComp:SoldierBasedRecoilComp ---
rem Long Barrel 762 Standard Recoil Assault Rifle
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierBasedRecoilComp
ObjectTemplate.recoil.hasRecoilForce 1
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceUp CRD_UNIFORM/5/5/0
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/-1.2/1.2/1
ObjectTemplate.recoil.zoomModifier 0.6
ObjectTemplate.recoil.goBackOnRecoil 1
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp:SoldierDeviationComp ---
rem Long Barrel 762 Optical Sight Standard Accuracy Assault Rifle
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierDeviationComp
ObjectTemplate.deviation.minDev .333
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setFireDev 1.4 .7 .023
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setTurnDev 2 .15 .15 .05
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setSpeedDev 3 1 1 .02
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setMiscDev 5 5 .05
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModStand 1.5
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModCrouch 1.0
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModLie 0.9
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModZoom .3
Code: Select all
rem ---BeginComp:SoldierBasedRecoilComp ---
rem Long Barrel 762 Standard Recoil Assault Rifle
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierBasedRecoilComp
ObjectTemplate.recoil.hasRecoilForce 1
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceUp CRD_UNIFORM/7/-2/0
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/-4/4/0
ObjectTemplate.recoil.zoomModifier 0.03
ObjectTemplate.recoil.goBackOnRecoil 1
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp:SoldierDeviationComp ---
rem Long Barrel 762 Iron Sight Sub Standard Accuracy Assault Rifle
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierDeviationComp
ObjectTemplate.deviation.minDev .25
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setFireDev .002 .002 .0006
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setTurnDev 2 .15 .15 .05
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setSpeedDev 10 0.5 0.5 .041
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setMiscDev 5 5 .05
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModStand 0.6
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModCrouch 0.6
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModLie 0.6
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModZoom .4
Code: Select all
rem ---BeginComp:SoldierBasedRecoilComp ---
rem Long Barrel 762 Standard Recoil Assault Rifle
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierBasedRecoilComp
ObjectTemplate.recoil.hasRecoilForce 1
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceUp CRD_UNIFORM/5/5/0
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/-1.2/1.2/1
ObjectTemplate.recoil.zoomModifier 0.6
ObjectTemplate.recoil.goBackOnRecoil 1
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp:SoldierDeviationComp ---
rem Long Barrel 762 Optical Sight Standard Accuracy Assault Rifle
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierDeviationComp
ObjectTemplate.deviation.minDev 0.25
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setFireDev 5 5 .08
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setTurnDev 2 .15 .15 .1
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setSpeedDev 5 1 1 .033
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setMiscDev 5 5 .05
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModStand 1.2
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModCrouch .4
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModLie .3
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModZoom .4As far as I can tell, if you use MEC LMG in deployed mode, with single shot firing mode on a stationary target, after deviation is settled you are more accurate then a riflemen with G3 assault rifle... your deviation is lower by 60% while standing, 40% while crouching, and 33% while prone.
So.. may I ask is it true in RL?
I'm not a military expert so I hope someone with better and detailed knowledge then me can answer my question. Do LMGs using the same calibre ammo as an assault rifle have the potential to be at least as accurate as that assault rifle?
I'm curious. I always thought LMGs were all about volume of fire to suppress the enemy and accuracy was a secondary thing...
[Sorry for going a little bit off topic (kind of)]
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 15:46
What I'm reading here is that OP wants hard realism, but is too lazy to buy and download ArmA, so he wants his free PR to be ArmA. Anyone who has been on these forums for a period longer than a month knows that weapons cannot be realistically handled in the BF2 engine, and deviation is what is used to represent the multiple variables that affect weapon control. On the second point he has, I'm pretty sure that an M1A2 or CR2 could snipe a dime at 1km, then turn around and engage low-flying aircraft. The targeting systems on modern tanks are quite powerful. If anything, tanks are not as powerful as they should be. They are limited by human controls, low view distances, and a lack of infrared or other targeting modes. Aircraft cannot be realistically portrayed in BF2, and I think PR has pretty much gone as far as it can go. CA certainly has. I'll get back to lasing.
The fourth point ties into what my vision of PR is. OP is demanding that PR be hard realism, taking the name of the mod to its most literal meaning possible. He wants true, realistic portrayal of every aspect on the battlefield as to create a "realistic gameplay." The way I view PR is a mod created for teamwork, and I see tons of that every time I go onto my favorite server. I believe that the PR team have used realism as a tool in order to create a strong teamwork-oriented atmosphere. Sure, jets could probably find their own targets in real life, but the lasing technique created by the PR team represents something done in real life and requires cooperation between the man on the ground and the pilot in the sky, thus spawning teamwork. In real life, you don't stab a guy who got shot in the face with an epipen either, but this arcadey-style medic system spawns squad cohesion. The squad sticks together and thus works together, meaning teamwork. The purpose of this mod is to create a strong teamwork-oriented atmosphere. Hell, it might just be realistic in that. I haven't seen a single other game where players stick together like they do in PR, not even in ArmA, the most realistic game I know.
If you want realism like you imagine, suck it up and shell out the $50 for ArmA 2. That seems to be the game for you.
The fourth point ties into what my vision of PR is. OP is demanding that PR be hard realism, taking the name of the mod to its most literal meaning possible. He wants true, realistic portrayal of every aspect on the battlefield as to create a "realistic gameplay." The way I view PR is a mod created for teamwork, and I see tons of that every time I go onto my favorite server. I believe that the PR team have used realism as a tool in order to create a strong teamwork-oriented atmosphere. Sure, jets could probably find their own targets in real life, but the lasing technique created by the PR team represents something done in real life and requires cooperation between the man on the ground and the pilot in the sky, thus spawning teamwork. In real life, you don't stab a guy who got shot in the face with an epipen either, but this arcadey-style medic system spawns squad cohesion. The squad sticks together and thus works together, meaning teamwork. The purpose of this mod is to create a strong teamwork-oriented atmosphere. Hell, it might just be realistic in that. I haven't seen a single other game where players stick together like they do in PR, not even in ArmA, the most realistic game I know.
If you want realism like you imagine, suck it up and shell out the $50 for ArmA 2. That seems to be the game for you.
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 15:49
@Ragni, to go on with offtopic. Do those numbers mean that LMG has the same deviation from all stances? And also that it's twice as accurate standing than DMR (while DMR wins crouch and prone)?
On the subject, I see the main problem being that people do not fear dying. All kinds of balance and "realism" are just tweak things and 0.86 is the best version so far. But dying does not in my opinion carry very much importance.
To sum it up, dying has some bad things associated.
1) Your team loses a ticket.
2) You lose some time. 30+secs plus the walk from rally.
( 3) You lose the kit you had.)
Third one does not apply to everyone but on some rare cases (snipers...) it can be fairly powerful. Second one is quite minor at the moment but the time should not be increased as that just frustrates players. And rallies should not be taken out either (but should be modified as I have posted elsewhere in depth but not the point here). The ticket loss is interesting one, because it holds power to be the most important of teams. But, on public games most of the people just don't care about actually winning the match, or at least don't care enough (just 1 ticket of those 500...). In contrary, in PR tournament organized play, people do care about winning. Which leads to everyone being that much more careful about their tickets. Kinda funny difference in the pace of play. So to sum it up, in my opinion either the first one should be made more important or some kind of new incentive to stay alive should be provided.
There's more to it though (and especially the second one since dying more takes more time). The medics. At the moment in PR if you get shot, you won't die but go to critical. And there's very little fear of going critical (the new 60s after revived -> dead is a good one). So therefore making critical be more fearful would also make people more fearful of dying. Many ways to do that of course but won't start about those here either.
What I'm trying to say that is that many of the teamwork promoting "differences from reality/abstractions" such as rallies and reviving have a side effect of making death not fearful. And by no means I say that those features are bad, they are essential to PR. But making survival bit more important would force people to stay together as 2 guns>1gun. Don't know so well though which would be the best way to do this.
Heck, should've started a new thread.
On the subject, I see the main problem being that people do not fear dying. All kinds of balance and "realism" are just tweak things and 0.86 is the best version so far. But dying does not in my opinion carry very much importance.
To sum it up, dying has some bad things associated.
1) Your team loses a ticket.
2) You lose some time. 30+secs plus the walk from rally.
( 3) You lose the kit you had.)
Third one does not apply to everyone but on some rare cases (snipers...) it can be fairly powerful. Second one is quite minor at the moment but the time should not be increased as that just frustrates players. And rallies should not be taken out either (but should be modified as I have posted elsewhere in depth but not the point here). The ticket loss is interesting one, because it holds power to be the most important of teams. But, on public games most of the people just don't care about actually winning the match, or at least don't care enough (just 1 ticket of those 500...). In contrary, in PR tournament organized play, people do care about winning. Which leads to everyone being that much more careful about their tickets. Kinda funny difference in the pace of play. So to sum it up, in my opinion either the first one should be made more important or some kind of new incentive to stay alive should be provided.
There's more to it though (and especially the second one since dying more takes more time). The medics. At the moment in PR if you get shot, you won't die but go to critical. And there's very little fear of going critical (the new 60s after revived -> dead is a good one). So therefore making critical be more fearful would also make people more fearful of dying. Many ways to do that of course but won't start about those here either.
What I'm trying to say that is that many of the teamwork promoting "differences from reality/abstractions" such as rallies and reviving have a side effect of making death not fearful. And by no means I say that those features are bad, they are essential to PR. But making survival bit more important would force people to stay together as 2 guns>1gun. Don't know so well though which would be the best way to do this.
Heck, should've started a new thread.
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 15:55
Heh, I think im the only person who enjoyed PR when it was more arcadish
Re: PR needs a big overhaul.
Posted: 2009-06-29 15:57
Very good post Waldo