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Re: Attack Heli
Posted: 2009-08-29 14:48
by Herbiie
Nemus wrote:In TRADOC Bulletin 1 (United States Army Training And Doctrine Command 30 Sept 1975) we can see about RPG - 7's Hit Probability when firing at a moving target 7,5 x 15ft ,crossing at 9 miles per hour.
And here is first hit probability:
Black Hawk's tail rotor has a diameter of 11ft.
When hovering at about 20m (It was the altitude of fastroping the troops) the hit probability is very high.
There is no way you can work out the probability of someone hitting
It all depends on that persons skill, you can't just say "RPGs will hit 78% of the time". Insurgents are particularly well trained, not trained enough o hit a helicopter while it's moving.
Re: Attack Heli
Posted: 2009-08-29 14:54
by AquaticPenguin
goguapsy wrote:conclusion: damage system sshould be like ARMA2: the back fan (or wtv its called) is disabled (or taken off if possible with BF2 engine) - thats the place the AA missiles usually hit (considering ur using heat seeking and not a .50 cal) - plz realism check?
The hottest part of a helicopter is generally the engine exhaust... Just below the main rotor and this is generally where a AA missile would hit - Not on the tail rotor.
There is no way you can work out the probability of someone hitting
I believe that's the accuracy (or inaccuracy in the rpg's case) of the actual weapon and doesn't incorporate the shooter's firing ability.
Re: Attack Heli
Posted: 2009-08-29 15:00
by DankE_SPB
Herbiie wrote:not trained enough o hit a helicopter while it's moving.
thats where tactics gets into play, trying to shoot down heli at 300km\h is obviously useless, but when its going to land, or going low and not very fast start spamming into tjeir direction, eventually 1 from 10 will hit its target
RPG-7
In Afghanistan, the Mujahideen found that the best anti-helicopter tactics were anti-helicopter ambushes. The first variant was to identify likely landing zones and mine them. Then the Mujahideen would position machine guns and RPGs around the landing zone. As the helicopter landed, massed RPG and machine gun fire would tear into the aircraft.(14)
If the Mujahideen could not lure helicopters into an ambush kill zone, the RPG could still engage helicopters. The Mujahideen found that a frontal shot at a range of 100 meters was optimum against an approaching helicopter.(15) As before, the more RPGs firing simultaneously, the better chance of a hit and escape from an avenging wingman.(16)
Should the helicopters be flying further away, it was better to wait until the helicopter was 700-800 meters away and then fire, trying to catch the helicopter with the explosion of the round's self-destruction at 920 meters distance. Chances of hitting a helicopter at this range by the self-destruct mechanism were very limited, but they served to discourage reconnaissance helicopters and air assault landings, particularly if a SA-7 Strela or a Stinger shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile was also firing.(17)
goguapsy wrote:
ALSO make pilots lose about 6 tickets when they die, + the tickets for losing a helo!
this will prevent those bloody noobs from suiciding with the chopper than having to walk
this wont prevent anything
Re: Attack Heli
Posted: 2009-08-29 15:56
by Nemus
Herbiie wrote:There is no way you can work out the probability of someone hitting
It all depends on that persons skill, you can't just say "RPGs will hit 78% of the time". Insurgents are particularly well trained, not trained enough o hit a helicopter while it's moving.
Please read better my post.
Its reffering to weapon's accuracy not operator's accuracy.
We talking about RPG aiming target and not a sniper rifle aiming a head. How much skill is required to keep your crosshair to 3x3m target at 100m?
(Plus the fact those militants in Somalia were more trained than expected)
And lastly i said about a BlackHawk hovering at 20m and not a Blackbird flying at Mach 4
Re: Attack Heli
Posted: 2009-08-29 22:08
by spawncaptain
Nemus wrote:
When hovering at about 20m (It was the altitude of fastroping the troops) the hit probability is very high.
They hit the Black Hawks when they where in the air, circling above the militants' positions, not when doing the 1337 fastrope insertions.
@Rhino: IIRC they used timed fragmentation warheads.
Source: Mark Bowden - Black Hawk Down
Re: Attack Heli
Posted: 2009-08-29 22:13
by ralfidude
Iv been hit by AA in a attack heli and started to lose all controll, was enough time to bail out. However, iv never taken a direct hit from a aim9 or aim 120 and survived.
Re: Attack Heli
Posted: 2009-08-29 22:19
by DankE_SPB
spawncaptain wrote:They hit the Black Hawks when they where in the air, circling above the militants' positions, not when doing the 1337 fastrope insertions.
@Rhino: IIRC they used timed fragmentation warheads.
Source: Mark Bowden - Black Hawk Down
iirc Mark Bowden is a writer, not a historian or military expert
there are no time-fuzed projectiles for RPG-7 some of them have self-destruct mechanism, but it activates after 4-6 seconds after flight, which means it travel very long distance before that(~800-900m)
Re: Attack Heli
Posted: 2009-08-30 01:16
by SkaterCrush
DankE_SPB wrote:iirc Mark Bowden is a writer, not a historian or military expert
there are no time-fuzed projectiles for RPG-7 some of them have self-destruct mechanism, but it activates after 4-6 seconds after flight, which means it travel very long distance before that(~800-900m)
Except I think the Delta Force operators and Rangers who told him about that are...
Re: Attack Heli
Posted: 2009-08-30 01:21
by Herbiie
Nemus wrote:Please read better my post.
Its reffering to weapon's accuracy not operator's accuracy.
We talking about RPG aiming target and not a sniper rifle aiming a head. How much skill is required to keep your crosshair to 3x3m target at 100m?
(Plus the fact those militants in Somalia were more trained than expected)
And lastly i said about a BlackHawk hovering at 20m and not a Blackbird flying at Mach 4
I didn't explain myself properly.
I meant that the Weapons Accuracy doesn't mean much when in the hands of Insurgents - then it's just how well that individual was trained
and it'll be mroe than that - you have to aim underneath the target for a start so you'd already have missed
Re: Attack Heli
Posted: 2009-08-30 04:40
by Celestial1
In regards to the 'tests' of the RPGs accuracy, you really should know that Scientific Tests are more often than not standardized to reduce randomness of the tests.
In English, this means they try to avoid the unreliable data from the RPG being fired by hand (where the RPG can be aimed incorrectly, can sway off target, can recoil off target).
To avoid that unreliability and randomness, it is more likely than not that they mounted the RPG to a stationary system (Tripod with a trigger-string or another mechanism to pull the trigger), and fired it that way to test the accuracy of an RPG in the purest way possible.
This means that while the studies showed that the "RPG is accurate", we should know that the "User is not" and "Results do not necessarily reflect reality".
Re: Attack Heli
Posted: 2009-08-30 05:00
by Eddie Baker
goguapsy wrote:of course, Pilots are issued a MP5.
No, they are not. Only the 160th SOAR aviators were issued with MP5Ks in the early 1990s. After Somalia, they were deemed inadequate. Fixed-wing pilots are issued with pistols, and helicopter crews also get M4 carbines.
Re: Attack Heli
Posted: 2009-08-30 06:38
by DannyIMK
mp5 for pilot is too much , the devs removed pistol from pilot because of paratroopers, but with mp5 there will be even more paratroopers
Re: Attack Heli
Posted: 2009-08-30 08:01
by DankE_SPB
SkaterCrush wrote:Except I think the Delta Force operators and Rangers who told him about that are...
then find such rounds and give us their names, i never seen them, only standard HEAT(PG-7V,VM,VL) and its modifications, tandem(PG-7VR, thermobaric(TBG-7V) and fragmentaion(OG-7V), the only way you can use them as airburst fragmentation is fire on max distance where it self-destructs, taking into account that helis were shot in urban area imo its hard to find place to shoot it on max distance, so it was direct hit
Re: Attack Heli
Posted: 2009-08-30 15:53
by Elektro
MaxBoZ wrote:An Attack helicopter (Cobra, Apache etc.) Were designed to be fast and heavily armed most of them dont have a lot of Armour.
The Apache is nicknamed the flying tank :b i agree with you on the cobra, but at least give me a few secounds in it when i get hit, either to land or becouse of respect to the pilots
give them a few secs to feel the thrill of a heli flying out of control at 200m and falling
Re: Attack Heli
Posted: 2009-08-30 17:42
by mat552
Elektro wrote:The Apache is nicknamed the flying tank
Isn't that the A10?
Re: Attack Heli
Posted: 2009-08-30 21:25
by Celestial1
mat552 wrote:Isn't that the A10?
A lot of aircraft seem to be 'nicknamed' the flying tank.
The only one that matters, though, is the
Antonov A-40!
In regards to pilots getting weapons, I think the first thing that needs to be done before they are given weapons is to separate the category of pilots. A jet pilot would be the kit as it is now, but a helicopter pilot would lose the parachute but gain a carbine or other PDW.
Anyway, let's try to get this thread back on topic; the original part of the thread was making helicopters survive an AA missile.
IMO, surviving is unlikely. The AA missile should have a very small chance of not critically damaging the aircraft if it hits directly. The majority of the time, the helicopter should disable, since the vital parts on the helicopters in-game are very much compacted (other than maybe the bottom of the helicopter, the rest of most of the helicopters are generally vital areas). And perhaps a small chance (larger than not being critically damaged at all) of completely destroying a healthy chopper with no chance for an emergency landing.
