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Posted: 2006-06-01 01:56
by <<SpanishSurfer>>
Burning Mustache wrote:Talk about game-balance there.
Of course our heroes, the US marines should have all their weapons modelled superior to those of the shabby MEC ragheads, eh ?
Git 'R Done!
The AK has much more punch, yet less accuracry, then the M-16. It's a fact. There is no bias, and no best weapon. I'm speaking on fact and experience, hell, the AK-47 is the most popular assault rifle in the world for a reason.
It could be done this way: 3 shots with M-16 to kill, 2 shot with AK. I'm not here to discuss those specifics I'll leave that to the dev team.
Posted: 2006-06-01 01:58
by twisted
<<SpanishSurfer>> wrote:Development team, make PRMM more realistic (If possible) my suggestions are:
•Individual values for weapon sway and recoil (Different gun different values)
Examples
•M-16 : Little recoil, little sway, little bullet drop, and medium damage.
•M249 Saw : Heavy recoil, heavy sway, medium bullet drop, heavy damage.
•AK-47 : Heavy recoil, medium sway, medium bullet drop, heavy damage.
•Pistols : Little recoil (Depending on caliber), little sway, heavy bullet drop, damage(Based on caliber).
•Proning should reduce gun sway dramatically. Weapons with tripods attached to them (Such as LMG) should have almost no weapon sway (Recoil is not reduced with tripods unless bolted to ground)
•Sniper Rifles : Heavy recoil, heavy sway, little bullet drop, heavy damage.
•As said many times before insta-proning must be eliminated.
•Takes at least 2-3 seconds to lay down with a weapon (I timed it with my own AR-15).
•I’ve suggested kit-limitations but this is 50/50 with the community.
•Perhaps not needed if the things mentioned above were implemented.
As someone who owns weapons that are very similar to the weapons used in this game I am basing my suggestions of experience, not assumptions or what I’ve read.
Another issue I am aware of is, are these things possible with the BF2 engine? Let me know DEV team. If they are I will gladly research every weapon currently used in PRMM and make more detailed list.
I strongly believe that the more realism is implemented into this mod the larger your fan base will grow.
really great list. these additions if implemented will enhance the mod .
Posted: 2006-06-01 02:47
by six7
I can't say anything about the m249, but the m-16 does not kick very much at all. Firing from a standing position at 12 years old, I had no difficulty handling the rifle at all. The recoil does increase with burst fire, but not nearly to the extent shown in game.
Posted: 2006-06-01 03:27
by M8/M320
OiSkout wrote:Well accordin to the guys essay on realism, it says MGs are usually heavy enough to keep the gun from flying up(though LMGs might)
Isn't that how they solved one of the issues with the M60, by making it heavy for it's E4 variant?
Posted: 2006-06-01 06:07
by twisted
Posted: 2006-06-01 09:31
by [k]MuffinMaster
'[R-PUB wrote:six7']I can't say anything about the m249, but the m-16 does not kick very much at all. Firing from a standing position at 12 years old, I had no difficulty handling the rifle at all. The recoil does increase with burst fire, but not nearly to the extent shown in game.
AK-101 should have the SAME ammount of recoil as the M16 ! (same caliber, almost same weight there is NO physical explaination why it should have more)
Now it has more recoil than the AK-47 !
Posted: 2006-06-01 12:19
by <<SpanishSurfer>>
'[k wrote:MuffinMaster']AK-101 should have the SAME ammount of recoil as the M16 ! (same caliber, almost same weight there is NO physical explaination why it should have more)
Now it has more recoil than the AK-47 !
Remember, it's not the caliber of the gun. It's the powder behind it that creates the "kick" in a gun. For example, a Desert Eagle .50 does not have the same amount of "kick" as a BAR .50. I'll repeat it, it's not the caliber alone that determines kick, its the length (& Width) of the shell casing (Longer shell casing more gunpowder in it) that creates the kick.
Posted: 2006-06-01 12:25
by Burning Mustache
Wikipedia says that the AK-101 uses the same ammunition (NATO 5.56 x 45 mm), hence the same shell, as the M16.
In addition, it seems to be heavier than the M16 aswell.
Now I have fired neither gun, but common sense tells me that, based on these facts, they'd have about the same amount kickback.
Posted: 2006-06-01 12:25
by Bob_Marley
Indeed, the AK-101 fires the same ammunition and posesses a superior muzzle break and has a lower rate of fire. It should be way more controlable than the M16A2.
Also - M16A2 = 4.47kg loaded, with an ROF of 800 RPM
FN Minimi (M249) = 7.1kg, with an ROF of 750 RPM feeding from a belt.
The laws of physics show that the Minimi will have lower recoil and will be more controlable on full auto.
Posted: 2006-06-01 13:16
by M8/M320
The Ak-101 also has a reduced recoil version. It's name is the Ak-107 or Ak-108.
EDIT: Yeah it is the 108
Posted: 2006-06-01 15:04
by <<SpanishSurfer>>
Burning Mustache wrote:Wikipedia says that the AK-101 uses the same ammunition (NATO 5.56 x 45 mm), hence the same shell, as the M16.
In addition, it seems to be heavier than the M16 aswell.
Now I have fired neither gun, but common sense tells me that, based on these facts, they'd have about the same amount kickback.
Oh, ok. Well I've never fired the AK-101. So I guess you're right, both the AK-101 and the M-16 have the same amount of energy being fired out of the gun. There is one thing you didn't account for, it's the spring design in the butt of the rifle. The M-16 has a very advanced spring design, I'm not so sure about the AK-101 (More then likely it does). Better recoil obsorption = better accuracy.
There is also another point to bring up. Most "Middle Eastern" fighters do NOT carry the AK-101, it's an expensive gun. They carry the AK-47 (MUCH cheaper in the world market), which has more power then the M-16.
In PRMM, the weapon that is shown for the the Chinese forces is the AK-47 (Wood stock). The MEC it's the AK-101(Plastic stock). Maybe they should BOTH have the AK-47? If not, then the AK-101 could have the exact same values in the game as the M-16. The AK-47 could be done as discussed in first post.
Posted: 2006-06-01 15:09
by the.ultimate.maverick
A little note - the M16A1 and M16A2 have significantly higher muzzle velocities than the AK101. So energy is not the same.
Posted: 2006-06-01 15:26
by <<SpanishSurfer>>
the.ultimate.maverick wrote:A little note - the M16A1 and M16A2 have significantly higher muzzle velocities than the AK101. So energy is not the same.
Muzzle velocity does not determine the "kick" of the gun. However, at a longer range (300+ yards) it does determine accuracy. Their muzzle velocities are not "significantly higher". The M16 has a significantly higher muzzle velocity then the AK-47 not the AK-101. The M16 mv is "slightly higher" then the AK-101.
Is bullet drop even a part of the BF2 engine?
Posted: 2006-06-01 15:32
by the.ultimate.maverick
Yes it is and you are wrong on the kick front. I have been a small arms expert for a number of years and I'll give you a brief physics lesson.
Kinetic Energy = 1/2 m v^2 (1/2 x mass x velocity squared)
Newton's third law states that every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
So if a projectile has a larger velocity it therefore has greater KE and therefore a greater reaction.
You can also reach this result by considering momentum.
Generally you are told only the ammo type has an effect on recoil but actually that is a generalisation based on the assumption that the rounds have the same velocity etc. Anyway, recoil formulae incorporate also mass and velocity of the powder charge itself.
So the indicator to use is the weight of the bullet as a general indicator of any change you would experience in felt recoil.
Anyway the velocities are very different. AK101 910m/s and the M16A1 is at 950 m/s and M16A2 at 970 m/s.
Posted: 2006-06-01 16:14
by <<SpanishSurfer>>
the.ultimate.maverick wrote:Yes it is and you are wrong on the kick front. I have been a small arms expert for a number of years and I'll give you a brief physics lesson.
Kinetic Energy = 1/2 m v^2 (1/2 x mass x velocity squared)
Newton's third law states that every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
So if a projectile has a larger velocity it therefore has greater KE and therefore a greater reaction.
You can also reach this result by considering momentum.
Anyway, recoil formulae incorporate also mass and velocity of the powder charge itself.
So the indicator to use is the weight of the bullet as a general indicator of any change you would experience in felt recoil.
Anyway the velocities are very different. AK101 910m/s and the M16A1 is at 950 m/s and M16A2 at 970 m/s.
Yeah, know the equation. Only thing about it is that the MASS is the most important part of the equation when you talk about assault rifles VS recoil. As far as gun recoil goes, velocity does play a role in determining the amount you will feel in weapon but not as much as MASS does. When we’re talking about assault rifles the caliber is the most influential part when determining the recoil of a gun. It’s important to note I said ASSAULT rifles and not any other type of rifle. Velocity plays a big part with recoil when you talk about SNIPER rifles such as the M107 Long Range Sniper Rifle.
Oh and thanks for the physics lesson I appreciate it. I’ve never met someone who was a small arms “expert.” I’ve met a lot of people who are very knowledgeable gun users but never an expert on ALL small arms, you must be the shit!
"So the indicator to use is the weight of the bullet as a general indicator of any change you would experience in felt recoil." <--Also known as the caliber bud.
Posted: 2006-06-01 16:18
by the.ultimate.maverick
Well working for 8 years in SF (5 of those in a combat unit) and now being offered a position at the SASC does make me an expert
And I did mention above that the velocity is oft ignored as the mass/ball dynamic is most important part
spanishsurfer wrote: <--Also known as the caliber bud..
You know nothing about munitions/ballistics do you.....calibre is the diametre of the inside of the barrel, and thus the diameter of the widest point of the bullet. It is not its weight or mass - you can have a round of the same calibre but different mass. And don't try and make me sound - it never works
Posted: 2006-06-01 16:29
by Wraith
OMG, Like a .308 bullet that has different grain weights. We aren't here to argue real life balistics. We know they are not true in game so it realy doesn't matter. Lets get back on topic to what the original poster said please.
Posted: 2006-06-01 16:31
by the.ultimate.maverick
'[R-DEV wrote:Wraith']OMG, Like a .308 bullet that has different grain weights.
I know - shock horror!
Posted: 2006-06-01 16:32
by <<SpanishSurfer>>
the.ultimate.maverick wrote:Well working for 8 years in SF (5 of those in a combat unit) and now being offered a position at the SASC does make me an expert
And I did mention above that the velocity is oft ignored as the mass/ball dynamic is most important part
.
What sucks about the internet as I never know who's lying about their credentials or when they're bullshitting. I'll take your word on what you said.
I re-read your post and saw that at the end. Sorry, thought you were arguing with me that muzzle velocity in assault rifles is the biggest factor in determining recoil.
Not trying to be a **** or anything just curious. With whom where you attached to during those 8 years? I know a few peeps out there who love the dangerous life. Me personally I'm going into either USCG or US Navy avition program very soon.
Posted: 2006-06-01 16:33
by Wraith
Well I was with the USAF 123 STS. Good times.