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Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-15 14:53
by mat552
We use it as we do (and call it what we do) because:

1) It looks like a tactical nuclear weapon detonation. There is a massive mushroom cloud, it shakes your screen, and suppresses you at quite the range. Yes it's realistic, and yes it's like nothing else in PR. There is the subconscious (or conscious) belief that such a powerful blast should level anything that might be considered inside its blast radius.

2) It's never referred to by whatever weapon the JDAM kit is actually bolted to. It's always just called "JDAM", at first even by the devs. If you want us to call it something else, both tell us what we SHOULD be calling it and start removing references to JDAM. Players learn terminology by example.

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-15 15:47
by Snazz
[R-DEV]Ninja2dan wrote:Why is everyone talking about "the JDAM is such a bigger bomb" and "JDAM do more damage"? The JDAM is not munition-specific to a particular poundage, JDAM is the guidance system and not the payload.
Because the 'JDAM' as it is called in PR is a larger bomb than the LG bombs on the jets.

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-15 15:58
by BloodBane611
2000 lb JDAMs should not be put on every plane in PR. It would be ridiculous, especially considering that the 500 lb bombs already on the planes are capable of killing any target in the game. Even with 5 minute reload times it would be spammy death. On quinling, infantry would never be able to keep an outpost up, and on Kashan, the bunkers would get raped repeatedly. Bigger bombs will simply make things less fun for infantry.

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-15 17:13
by loki1120
take away all ground attack abilites from teh F-16 and give it a 2000lb LJDAM but make it have to recive a Lasder designator from a ground unit, and the ok from the commander, then double the rearm time for that weapon and only rearm it after the rest of the plane is rearmed. ( causes the plane to be on the ground longer)


what ya think guys???????

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-15 19:40
by samogon100500
No
laser guidet bomb are better,becouse they can destroy moving venicle!!!

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-16 01:15
by Ninja2dan
loki1120 wrote:take away all ground attack abilites from teh F-16 and give it a 2000lb LJDAM but make it have to recive a Lasder designator from a ground unit, and the ok from the commander, then double the rearm time for that weapon and only rearm it after the rest of the plane is rearmed. ( causes the plane to be on the ground longer)


what ya think guys???????
I think this would be a bad idea. Pilots in PR like to fly around and blow stuff up, not spend 70% of their time sitting on a runway waiting for one munition to reload. I feel that if there are A-10's on the map, there shouldn't be an A-G variant of the F-16. So if you do have an F-16 on a map that is armed with A-G munitions, then it should be your only A-G fixed-wing.

You know as well as anyone that we aren't going to be dropping tons of JDAM in the AO, those things are just too expensive. Remember that the JDAM munitions have the exact same payload capabilities as any standard LGB, and Paveways are a lot cheaper. The LJDAM is not meant to replace the LGB such as the Paveway, the addition of the laser tracker was simply to allow the spotting unit to provide instant course correction if the target location was to change after weapon release (such as slow-moving target or change in intel).

One of the points I have been trying to put across to everyone is that the JDAM munitions are not used on a regular basis. They are only used when the deployment of standard LGB munitions is not possible or feasible. The military counts every dollar spent on munitions, and the cost of a JDAM over that of a Paveway is very substantial. The JDAM munitions are also going to be a lot less available than the other types of guidance systems, so you aren't going to waste them unless you need to.

Besides, the majority of the time pilots need to take out smaller targets, such as a single armored unit or cluster of troops holed up in a building. Having multiple 500-pounders available instead of a single 2000-pounder is going to mean that aircraft can remain on station longer and provide much more CAS effectiveness.

samogon100500 wrote:No
laser guidet bomb are better,becouse they can destroy moving venicle!!!
The munition he suggested above was the LJDAM, the upgraded version with laser-guided capabilities.


And there are plenty of laser-guided munitions available on the battlefield. You have LGB munitions like the Paveway, you have Hellfire missiles, you even have the M712 Copperhead round for the 155mm howitzer. But every munition has its own intended purpose, and munitions are selected based on the individual target and the conditions surrounding the engagement of that target.


If it will help clear up this issue, I can also explain how laser-guided munitions actually work and why they are not feasible on the aircraft in PR.

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-16 04:00
by charliegrs
I always thought the 500 lb bombs on the jets and the commander controlled 2000lb bomb {the one we call the "JDAM"} served different purposes. the 500 lbers were for hitting more individual targets like tanks and tight clusters of infantry, since the jets fly lower and and work more closely with the friendly infantry. and the 2000 lb jdam was dropped by a plane flying very high altitude and intended to take out a wide area of targets. like a small nuke in a way. although more often that not it just ends up being a giant smoke grenade..

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-16 04:26
by loki1120
[R-DEV]Ninja2dan wrote:If it will help clear up this issue, I can also explain how laser-guided munitions actually work and why they are not feasible on the aircraft in PR.
please do good sir :)

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-16 07:57
by Ninja2dan
loki1120 wrote:please do good sir :)
EDIT: This is in regards to the LJDAM, the laser-guided/assisted version. The standard JDAM works similar as mentioned below, but instead of acquiring the laser source it instead just picks up the GPS signal and homes in to that location. The LJDAM usually only activates the laser portion of the guidance system if the GPS signal is lost, if the target is moving slowly, or if the exact point of impact needed has changed after release. JDAM munitions can not change their target coordinates after release, there is no magic update feature. Release heights are still about the same for both the JDAM and LJDAM models.


Well, basically like any other laser-guided munition, they use a seeker head that is able to look downwards onto the target area in a cone-like view. As long as the laser designator beam is within this cone of view and the frequency is coded into the munition, it can track the beam and ride it home.

The catch is that the munition must be fired from a high enough altitude and released from the correct angle in order to get the "cone" within the area of the target and the laser mark. If the munition is dropped too low, the cone is too small. If the munition is dropped too fast, the cone will overshoot the target area or the munition will be traveling too fast to be capable of steering itself while still keeping the cone in the target zone.

This means that aircraft needing to use laser-guided munitions must drop them from a high enough altitude to give the munition's cone enough range to allow maneuvering and ensure a good hit. The higher the release, the wider the bottom of the cone's radius. This is generally done at altitudes of FL200 to FL300 (20,000 to 30,000 feet), and the higher the altitude then the more precise the weapon will be.


The problem with using the JDAM on aircraft in PR is that the pilots (players) will not be flying their aircraft at a realistic height in order to use the JDAM effectively. In all honesty, the height at which PR aircraft operate would actually make the use of any LGB munitions unrealistic. At those heights, they would be engaging targets with either a CCIP or CCRP targeting method, using non-laser munitions. Low-flying aircraft like the A-10 would also have a higher chance of sticking to their other guided munitions such as the AGM-65.

Another issue with releasing a large munition at low-altitude is the fact that if the munition is not retarded, there is the chance that the detonation could cause a portion of the blast wave or fragments/debris to strike the aircraft as it makes its pass. An example would the the Mk 82 Snakeye.


In real combat, the decision to use a JDAM munition must be weighed against the individual theater and circumstances. Due to the high altitude required for JDAM release, this puts the aircraft at risk of SAM hits. You will usually have a SEAD strike in the area before any such JDAM runs, and even then there is still risk of hidden or "silent" SAM sites will become active. This is why we have several other precision weapons available, such as the infamous "cruise missile" and the 155mm Copperhead munition. If the area is unsafe for air release, these other methods would be used instead.


People need to realize that the 2000-pound JDAM munition is not going to be used against troops, and will probably not be used against armor or other vehicles. A smaller munition payload is capable of taking out those targets with much less risk of collateral damage, and at a much cheaper price tag. The 2000-pounders are often reserved specifically for engaging hard targets such as bunkers, caves, factories, or other structures that a lighter payload might not be capable of defeating even with a penetrating fuze.

The JDAM was designed for precision strikes against stationary targets, usually those that were not capable of being engaged by other means without putting soldiers or equipment at risk or when other munitions would not be effective.


So for those wondering why we have a JDAM in PR, it's to offer the team a limited-use (either by time delay or quantity) precision-strike weapon with a payload larger than what is normally available on aircraft of that map. Examples of proper PR JDAM use would be when you have a bunker or base that needs knocked out and flying an attack sortie with low-alt aircraft would be too risky, or if you need to hit a precision target and no other immediate support is available. And I'm talking about life-and-death win-or-lose targets here like a group of armor or the enemy building an FB right outside your camp. You should not be using the JDAM to smash a single tank or flatten just one squad of infantry. This is what the other assets are for.

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-16 14:27
by Redamare
mabey it would be possible to only use a Jdam with a laser guided marker made from a squad leader Which the comander give an area strike order .. so you can only j dam if there is an area strike marker within 100-150 meters from the intended targets. then a bomber F15/Su attackjets/tornado can drop a j-dam

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-16 14:28
by hiberNative
no, i prefer the commander having control of such a big ordinance because he has better intel of what's going on.

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-16 14:41
by samogon100500
2 2000KG bombs - no teamplay!!!
JDAM on jets - GLTD are uselles!!!
No artelery - difficult destruction of enemy fortified FBs!!!
This is my opinion about Jdam on jets!!!

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-17 03:00
by Hunt3r
Current jets fly a pattern that doesn't bode well with big bombs >.>

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-17 20:16
by Garmax
the commanders jdam is used strategically and with intel.. its very priceless so it usually doesnt get wasted like nothing..

if it was on a jet idk how many times itd be spammed and dropped on friendlies, and uncaps

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-18 00:37
by BloodBane611
Examples of proper PR JDAM use would be when you have a bunker or base that needs knocked out and flying an attack sortie with low-alt aircraft would be too risky, or if you need to hit a precision target and no other immediate support is available.
But given that static structures block the JDAM's effect, it is very ineffective in its realistic role. Unless that can be addressed, there's no point in adding it to aircraft, or really even having it ingame. It would be more useful to have artillery, and no less realistic.

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-18 02:18
by Ninja2dan
BloodBane611 wrote:But given that static structures block the JDAM's effect, it is very ineffective in its realistic role. Unless that can be addressed, there's no point in adding it to aircraft, or really even having it ingame. It would be more useful to have artillery, and no less realistic.
Again, I would have to say that the map/mission makers will need to take all aspects into consideration when they determine which assets will be made available on their maps. It will also be up to the players to use those assets effectively.

On Kashan for example, there are the bunkers but also much more map area in which someone might need to call in a JDAM munition. There are many structures that are destructable on that map, so players hiding in those would be toast. The issue with the bunkers has been mentioned, and is being looked into.


I'm going to leave this as my final post in this topic unless someone requests information from me. I will say this, changes are being made to the JDAM munitions in PR. Until players see the new changes for themselves, I feel that any discussion about them at this point is useless. What you currently know as the "JDAM" in PR will be drastically different from the modified version. That and the new artillery, PR is going to see some awesome changes.

And as for the original question/suggestion, my opinion is that the chances of adding JDAM munitions to player-flown aircraft is just not going to happen.

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-21 20:13
by HAAN4
Frist, deploy a Artilhary manual sistem, it has posted many times, and also is a good ideia.

about JDAM, making up into a jet POWERFULL BOMB, avaliable only after time in time.

maybe it will be need to be spawed in the hangar, the missele, and if the jet is arround it could be reload JDAM sloot.

this will be only a BLUEFOR Big red, nothing more.

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-21 20:27
by loki1120
if they start using the 81mm mortars that i saw around here somwhere then they can do away with that silly area attack stuff. just give place able markers on the map as to where you want it. i think that puting a L-JDAM like weapon on the F16 as its ONLY ground attack ability from altitude would be a nice thing, but have it have to be laser designated from the ground element and ok'd by the CO. same reload time as other bombs once air craft is on the deck, but after it goes through its normal respawn time like it was for the CO

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-22 14:52
by TheOldBreed
nah, i can't see this. JDAMs can be launched upto 15 miles away - that's why on footage you rarely hear the aircraft above.

still, it would be JDAM mania, and JDAMs get me hard as a rock haha

Re: Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

Posted: 2009-11-22 22:49
by HAAN4
TheOldBreed wrote:nah, i can't see this. JDAMs can be launched upto 15 miles away - that's why on footage you rarely hear the aircraft above.

still, it would be JDAM mania, and JDAMs get me hard as a rock haha
Agreed we alerdy have alot of Aircraft manics. so having JDAM AIRCRAFT MANICS.

ummm, this will not make sense.

besides, commander have not enough Assents, having a UAV, and JDAM, for now it's fine.

but we still have to work other things, like Manual artilhary (both mortars and Hotzers and also mobily ones), SPY satility, Radar, and other stuff.