Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

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IAJTHOMAS
Posts: 1149
Joined: 2006-12-20 14:14

Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by IAJTHOMAS »

Cpt.Kawakowitsch wrote: it is also realistic that the Bluefor is losing that often, because IRL the Bluefor can't really win an insurgency.
Malayan Emergency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Plus, this is a game, it's a bit pointless playing if you're on a side where the odds are stacked against you.

All these toys are good for killing insurgents, but that doesn't necessarily get you closer to victory. However, I agree that if they all work together then its likely that bluefor will win.

But the key factor that causes bluefor to lose often is that if they're not very organised it hurts them badly, and assets and infantry are killed piecemeal, eroding tickets for little gain. The insurgent on the other hand can still be relatively disorgansied and be sucessful, even if people are wandering around on their own their deaths mean nothing, whereas any Bluefor they kill leaves them one step closer to defeat.

I'm not sure what the answer is, or even if there a problem, as you have said, bluefor do have all the tools to give them a good chance of winning, but to use them requires good team level co-operation, which is one of the hardest things to acheive in PR. Even a couple of squad constantly wasting assets/tickets and giving the enemy lots of bluefor equipemnt can hurt the team badly.
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Rudd
Retired PR Developer
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by Rudd »

Cpt.Kawakowitsch wrote: it is also realistic that the Bluefor is losing that often, because IRL the Bluefor can't really win an insurgency.
yeah, the insurgents have ousted the Iraqi government and anarchy currently reigns

somone better inform the pentagon, they seem to think the iraq episode is going to end soon and that it'll end with the Iraqi government intact...


I think that unlimited tickets is what makes insurgency differnet and fun, the way to balance is to make it easier to find caches if you're playing right, i.e. super duper intel penalties for killing civis and more intel points for killing legitimate targets, or indeed for destroying caches themselves.
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General_J0k3r
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by General_J0k3r »

Cpt.Kawakowitsch wrote:Yeah, right...

A kind of a decent Bluefor-Team should get a K/D of 3/1 or 2/1 pretty easy. So why stop at bringing the tickets back for the insurgents, just give the Bluefor some cruise missles, continuously reloading artillery and maybe one or two squadrons of B52s to mix it up a little and assure the victory for the Bluefor without any effort.
correct. e.g. on basrah if done correctly all caches that are not inside the city should be possible to get with less than 20-30 tickets loss. if you even need that much. i have to admit that such a thing doesn't happen too often since it usually requires a teamwide effort (otherwise, even if you have one or two squad getting a cache for 3 ticks or so the rest of the team will waste tickets by tardrushing quite often...).

caches inside cities and any other CQB heavy environment are another thing. if ins are good it's hard to get into. still, the instant cache killing ability of the artie makes for around 5 caches a game if blufor is patient enough.

i don't think there's anything wrong with insurgency atm (except for the civvie spawntime but that's another thing maybe ;) ). it's quite nicely balanced, even though blufor usually needs more teamwork to win (as in move together and help/heal/cover each other => MUMBLE :D ).
Robbi
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by Robbi »

[R-CON]Rudd wrote: more intel points for killing legitimate targets, or indeed for destroying caches themselves.
I've completely forgot, but do we get Intel points for destroying Hideouts?
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gazzthompson
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by gazzthompson »

Cpt.Kawakowitsch wrote:it is also realistic that the Bluefor is losing that often, because IRL the Bluefor can't really win an insurgency.
a in game map represents one battle, not a hole war. one battle is easy to win "IRL" for "Bluefor" . (not saying it should be "easy" in game, just your comment doesn't apply)
Rudd
Retired PR Developer
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by Rudd »

Robbi wrote:I've completely forgot, but do we get Intel points for destroying Hideouts?
I don't know...but I hope we do :D
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Robbi
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by Robbi »

Yeah im not sure, cant remember from when we were testing the Ins Scoring changes :/
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Cpt.Kawakowitsch
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by Cpt.Kawakowitsch »

[quote=""'[R-CON"]Rudd;1223117']yeah, the insurgents have ousted the Iraqi government and anarchy currently reigns

somone better inform the pentagon, they seem to think the iraq episode is going to end soon and that it'll end with the Iraqi government intact...[/quote]

I don't know, if we are talking about the same countries and yes you are right Iraq seems to be a very peaceful country after "mission accomplished" and coalition forces winning and sure the coalition forces will retreat soon and the insurgency in Afghanistan is also pretty much over, it is a peaceful land now. And both countries have stable governments, right...

[quote="gazzthompson""]a in game map represents one battle, not a hole war. one battle is easy to win "IRL" for "Bluefor" . (not saying it should be "easy" in game, just your comment doesn't apply)[/quote]

When one map is representing one battle, then all fought battles equals the whole insurgency and if one is assuming that an insurgency can't be won, there should be a positive win/loss ratio for the insurgents and that makes my comment applyable.

But well, that was way way off topic, so sry for that
Rudd
Retired PR Developer
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by Rudd »

I don't know, if we are talking about the same countries and yes you are right Iraq seems to be a very peaceful country after "mission accomplished" and coalition forces winning and sure the coalition forces will retreat soon and the insurgency in Afghanistan is also pretty much over, it is a peaceful land now. And both countries have stable governments, right...
I didn't mention Afghanistan, I said Iraq, and its been a long time since "mishun accomplished" was said, from that point the insurgency was the problem. However now coalition forces job is actually finished, and they get to go home and let the Iraqis do the job for themselves.
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Cpt.Kawakowitsch
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by Cpt.Kawakowitsch »

Sorry again for OT, will be the last one. :)
[R-CON]Rudd wrote:However now coalition forces job is actually finished, and they get to go home and let the Iraqis do the job for themselves.
My comment was about insurgency in general and then Iraq came as an example. And what was the "job" again for the coalition forces in Iraq? Fight terror, finishing Al-Qaida, bringing peace and democracy to the country...? Right, all of this has been accomplished. So the coalition forces have won the insurgency, right? First time in history.
gazzthompson
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by gazzthompson »

Cpt.Kawakowitsch wrote:When one map is representing one battle, then all fought battles equals the whole insurgency and if one is assuming that an insurgency can't be won, there should be a positive win/loss ratio for the insurgents and that makes my comment applyable.
no, "winning" a insurgency is far too complicated to be compared to in game battles. in game battles represent the type of day to day battles that happen not a "insurgency".
IAJTHOMAS
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by IAJTHOMAS »

Plus I have already posted one example of a conventional army sucessfully supressing an insurgency, I'm sure I could find others if I put my mind to it, that was just one I happened to know off the top of my head.

Also as Gazz states in many insurgencies the conventional forces often 'won' individual engagements as portrayed in PR, but failed to suceed in the long term for other reasons.
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Cpt.Kawakowitsch
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by Cpt.Kawakowitsch »

gazzthompson wrote:no, "winning" a insurgency is far too complicated to be compared to in game battles. in game battles represent the type of day to day battles that happen not a "insurgency".
IAJTHOMAS wrote:Plus I have already posted one example of a conventional army sucessfully supressing an insurgency, I'm sure I could find others if I put my mind to it, that was just one I happened to know off the top of my head.

Also as Gazz states in many insurgencies the conventional forces often 'won' individual engagements as portrayed in PR, but failed to suceed in the long term for other reasons.
Yes, you are both right. I missed the Malayan one, that was a real "win". The french were able to handle the insurgency in Algeria kind of, but also retreated in the end.
gazzthompson
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by gazzthompson »

Cpt.Kawakowitsch wrote:Yes, you are both right. I missed the Malayan one, that was a real "win". The french were able to handle the insurgency in Algeria kind of, but also retreated in the end.
you miss the point. if in game the match lasted years, involved killing the insurgents, training the local police/army, establishing a government, securing and defending the local population... many of the NUMEROUS complicated matters involved in a insurgency then your original comment would be correct. but this is not the case. a ingame match is nowhere NEAR comparable to a "insurgency" . they represent single operations ( like this )in which IRL 'blufor' almost always "win".

i repeat, a ingame "operation" is nowhere near comparable to a extremely complicated "insurgency".
myles
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by myles »

When the stashes could make good secondary objectives so theres more variety but the downside is that if the happen to stumble upon a stash (stash has to be near cache) and theres no marker for a cache then it kind of gives away the postion for it maybe they should spawn when the cache marker is visible to blufor.
If its rule 2 that its placed by cell leader it might influcne team play on insurgents side and the cell leader might stick with his kit more.
Check out my Project Reaity gamplay here http://www.youtube.com/user/Projectreality1

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Gosu-Rizzle
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by Gosu-Rizzle »

You can NEVER win an insurgency situation in the long run with military power. History has proved that many many times. (yeah okay, you can manage to find 1 or to examples of the opposite, but that really dosent matter) There has never been a more superior nation than the current US with its allies, and yet they cannot defeat neither the afgans nor the iraqi insurgents. If you cant win the hearts of the people, you are doomed to fail.
As you say Gazz its possible for BLUEFOR to "win" most of their operations. But it comes down to what you define "winning" as. If we take the PR version and compare it to RL, im sure BLUEFOR dosent manage to find all the "weapon-caches" when they capture a city like Fallujah. Nor kill all the insurgents. They just go undercover and wait for most of the BLUEFOR to be occupied elsewere, before they start over again. (and this is always the case since there is not enough troops to cover every battle at the same time)
So in PR terms the BLUEFOR looses quite a lot of the time. (they are forced to retreat before they get all "10" of the caches)


On topic: I dont think we need to do it any harder for BLUEFOR than it already is.. I think the 3 RPG rounds you can carry per run is just fine, you just need to move ~50-100m away from the cache to shoot them.
And with the new ammo-truck for the INS they will have plenty of ammo.
Last edited by Gosu-Rizzle on 2010-01-03 22:41, edited 2 times in total.
Herbiie
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by Herbiie »

Gosu-Rizzle wrote:You can NEVER win an insurgency situation in the long run with military power. History has proved that many many times.
No - It WAS never possible to win an Insurgency Situation.

History is the past - and therefore can't prove anything.
killonsight95
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by killonsight95 »

Herbiie wrote:No - It WAS never possible to win an Insurgency Situation.

History is the past - and therefore can't prove anything.
true but we look to the past, for example:
1. he/she commited murder 5 years ago, but that was 5 years ago he/she an't gonna do it now, that would be wrong as it stands the fact he commited that crime
2. WW2 was caused by the treaty of verslie(or how ever you spell that name), thus many countries ahve avoided making another treaty of the same kind(as of i know), because countries feel the need to rebel against it same with insurgentgency war


EDIT: now thta i look back these are really bad examples lol
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Gosu-Rizzle
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by Gosu-Rizzle »

Herbiie wrote:No - It WAS never possible to win an Insurgency Situation.

History is the past - and therefore can't prove anything.
I beg to differ, but if you truely believe that then i cant help you. You can learn alot from history, and not just on this subject. TBH it sounds like you havent been paying attention in your history class :roll:
badmojo420
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Re: Weapons "Stashes" for insurgents

Post by badmojo420 »

I skimmed through this thread, since only about 1 in 10 posts were on the topic of the suggestion.

But, it's interesting to see how things have changed in such a short amount of time. These days, I find it's the coalition who win most rounds. And I don't find that the new insurgent ammo truck is the answer to all the insurgents ammo needs.

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]CodeRedFox;1222746']Well...thats the idea of caches in the first place. Its a cache of weapons that needs to be destroyed or protected. Having the real cache and another cache totally diverts from the whole idea.

My opinion is that rpg's coming from the cache area is exactly what INS is all about. Its about discovering a cache of weapons. Making an "other" cache site doesn't make much sense and would only hurt the INS idea.[/quote]

I see what you are saying CodeRedFox, but we've already added in the repair depot, and the ammo truck. Both are non-cache sources of ammo.

In fact, I was against the addition of those extra sources of ammo, for exactly the reason you were against this "stash" idea. But, that whole 'cache as the only source of ammo' idea is now broken, so some of the ideas that were scrapped in order to maintain it, should now be reconsidered.

Edit: (added posts from other thread)

[quote="EgoTrippin""]generally the idea is interesting.

but to make it more realistic and difficult:

the deployable caches should only be deployable when blufor has discovered the main cache - not when it is still hidden for them.

thus it would simulate the insurgents transporting away weapons and preparing a defense

carrying weapons is a lot of work so only a 4 or maybe even a five-man squad should be able to deploy those mini caches.

destroying a mini-cache either gets Blufor some intel-points or some additional "lives"

maybe those mini-caches should also be shown on the minimap (only the rough area - not exactly. just like the real cashe) => this would kind of show a visible line of defense and might force Blufor to choose another path. if done right the insurgents might be able to force blufor into a choke point.. if done wrong blufor could just fall in their back...[/quote]

I think allowing the insurgents to build them on any cache would sometimes hurt the insurgents. If an ammo stash was discovered, there is a very good chance it's near a real cache. So that might be a player thing, not building them until the cache is discovered, just the same as we do currently with hideouts, some idiots build them too soon, and they pay the price.

Giving blufor intel for destroying them is a good idea, only if there is no room for exploit, for example, when a stash is half built and starts to blow up constantly, that should not give them intel over and over.

As for showing them on the map, the whole reason I suggested them being 150m from the cache was so they would fall under the same radius as the normal cache marker. So there would really be no need for another marking. But, I would like to see them marked on the map for the insurgents.
snooggums wrote:Wouldn't it be simpler to just have more ammo vehicles added to the map, or have Hideouts dispense ammo very slowly? How about giving the clown cars a single light box of ammo?
ghost-recon wrote:It's actually just more like an ammobox, let's say attached to the FOB. Great Idea! +1
PuffNStuff wrote:Why not just give the insurgent fob the ability to resupply?
I say no to hideouts getting ammo. My goal was to give insurgents added resources in order to defend their main caches. Not to give them ammo everywhere they pop up a hideout. If we added ammo to hideouts, you would see a hideout in front of every coalition main base and about 10 sappers laying mines the whole round.

More ammo trucks would be a nice addition of course. But, they still don't solve anything. It's very difficult to sneak a truck into an area that is under siege by the coalition forces, and the ammo trucks can't reload off teh cache, so as a means to move ammo around the cache area, it's doable, but not suitable. We have the power to change the game here guys, why not make it a bit easier on ourselves? Just like the drop kit wasn't needed, but it makes some things much easier, these secondary ammo stashes aren't needed, but they would make things a hell of a lot easier on those players who care about stuff like cache secrecy.
Last edited by badmojo420 on 2010-05-19 00:29, edited 2 times in total.
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