Project Reality Forums

Hunt3r wrote:
Countermeasures

• Flares that block heat targets from appearing
• Flares should block the explosion if the seeker head detonates near the aircraft, and the flare is between it.

why??

firstly they provide a stronger heat source (so like a magnet so they wouldn't obscure the targets but provide a more "visable" one for the missile.

and secondly this make now sense the flairs do not contain some mystical force field if it is within a viable range and at the proper angle it should still damage the aircraft.

VIEW DISTANCE !!!!!!!!!!!!

that is the problem in this game

Infantry operating a Tow can have the same view distance as the cobra,

WHen in REAL LIFE !!!!!!! the cobra can see over 10x the distance of the tow.

Amazing, when you realize Project reality is not all the reality that you want.

'[R-COM wrote:BloodBane611;1330369']Perhaps I should have been more clear: We cannot maintain the current quality of PR maps and increase the view distance.

We can greatly increase view distance (and map size) by simply exponentially reducing the number of statics and amount of under/overgrowth, and creating terrain out of a static. So yes, technically possible. Is the result desirable? In my opinion, no.

I disagree, I find that the problem lies more in the ineffective LODs for long view distances. If a static whose lowest LOD has >500 polies looks the same as one with <50 polies at a distance, then you've decreased strain greatly by the same factor as there are objects being rendered at those distances.

Or can you remember that time when kit geometries became more detailed but lacked basically any LOD change as distance increased? Yup, those are the real performance killers.

The problem is that you say this, but right now Cobras and Apaches can't even stay near the front line without getting quickly destroyed.

I'm pretty sure that Apaches can get into danger zones, flying a kilometer up to avoid small arms.

The flare system is there because usually, assuming the aircraft doesn't set off the prox fuse, missiles will streak right past, then blow up once it reaches max range. It's not quite realistic to have it blow up at a flare.

ytman wrote:Alright, the biggest issue I'm getting here is all the complaining that:

I want to fly a 1337 Apache and go in and rape everything. The fact that I can't do this without being killed by tanks, APCs, and AA pisses me off.

The best solution?

Get on a server that uses mumble to communicate with other squads. Have those squads find out if there is something that can kill you. Have them kill it. Then have them lase a target and do your 1337 pwning then.

Rinse, wash, repeat.

Its all about teamwork. IRL Apaches wont fly into a danger zone or a possible danger zone.

I totally agree, and I wish it was this way, but on a vast majority of servers, infantry squads don't seem to give a s*** about air support.
Sure, if they need it then they'll laze something, but then get pissed if the helicopter gets shot down by the AA 100 meters from their position that they didn't warn the pilot about.
People on the ground don't know how to work with pilots in general. Sure, some can, and when you have a good infantry squad giving targets to a good pilot, you can do a massive amount of damage.
But from my experience, this is very rare.

Countermeasures

• Flares that block heat targets from appearing
• 120 of them

Weaponry

• Hellfires should have two modes
• Area mode: Once you fire, the missile will go towards where you last clicked.
• Point mode: Hellfires will lock onto any vehicle, or emplacement. TOW, HMG, AA, it doesn't matter. It must be manned, however. If this is considered too radical, this could be just the previous LT mode.

Sensors

• Pseudo-FLIR should be implemented.
• All helicopters that give the pilot a FLIR camera should get them, ie the Apache.
• Helicopters should get a warning that they are about to be locked, and they should be told when they have been locked.

Revised. Also:
http://www.combinedarmsmod.com/videos-t ... elogunning (relevant)

http://www.combinedarmsmod.com/videos-t ... clegunning

ytman wrote:Alright, the biggest issue I'm getting here is all the complaining that:

I want to fly a 1337 Apache and go in and rape everything. The fact that I can't do this without being killed by tanks, APCs, and AA pisses me off.

The best solution?

Get on a server that uses mumble to communicate with other squads. Have those squads find out if there is something that can kill you. Have them kill it. Then have them lase a target and do your 1337 pwning then.

Rinse, wash, repeat.

Its all about teamwork. IRL Apaches wont fly into a danger zone or a possible danger zone.

This response is so annoying, everyone automatically assumes that since people want attack hoppers and jets to have their proper power we want to go rambo and not care about the team. The fact is that a tank IRL with a range of 2km isn't effective against a 8km hellfire. If you scaled those distances down to PR and did it with the ther weapons too, like IFV cannons then attack choppers would have a range they could operate safe from the ground vehicles that don't need to worry about slow moving hellfires, moving just a little bit ill mess up the guided missle, or the fact that you stick out like a sore thumb in the air or hugging the ground.

When it comes to the AA missles, the only thing I dislike about them is that if you pop precautionary(sp?) flares, the AA can just spam rockets into the flares and has a very good chance of killing you, I think this is what hunter was getting at when he said for flares not to have heat boxes. This is the same in air to air combat, a smart pilot will just shoot his missles into the flares and their large blast radius will either explode 50m away from the aircraft and kill it when it blows up on the flare, or the flare will dissapear and it will relock onto the jet.

Drunkenup wrote:Apaches will, and thats why they get shot down every once in a while. Its as if nobody understands that Attack Helicopters WILL sustain some heavier calibers, the Apache being top notch at deflecting calibers up to 23mm in some places, thus most IFVs still can shoot it down, but the fact that they are vulnerable to a simple .50 Caliber, which I expect the advanced Havoc, Apache, Cobra, and the so called flying tank Hind should take in. Not seeing that so much. The other problem is AA as well, its point shoot and dead. As said before, I think flares should be heightened to much higher amount, the apache also can carry 60 flares out of optional M130 dispensers, and all choppers should have a significantly longer lock on time by MANPADs, AAVs as most carry a electronic countermeasure, IR blockers, absorbent skin (as seen on the Viper and Apache).

When the CIA managed to get .50 weapons to the Muj in Afghanistan in the 80s, that was when Hinds started to fall out of the air.

When they got 14.5mm weapons, Hinds started falling much more regularly.

When they received the SA-7 and FIM-92, that's when Hinds started to fall out of the air very frequently indeed. The introduction of flares and other countermeasures helped, but losses continued.


Sorry guys, but the gunship isn't some mighty behemoth that never dies. A rapid-fire cannon or heavy-calibre machine gun will cripple or kill a helicopter very quickly.

Hunt3r wrote:
Weaponry

• Hellfires should have two modes
• Area mode: Once you fire, the missile will go towards where you last clicked.

I would definately agree with that, here is a demonstration of that kind of thing from teh House of Pain 2 mod, I can't remember how the CA ones work since htey broke in the last version of CA>

houseofpaintstuff15 - Xfire Video

however I don't know how this mod overcame the limitations on the speed of lazer targets.

[R-DEV]Masaq wrote:Sorry guys, but the gunship isn't some mighty behemoth that never dies. A rapid-fire cannon or heavy-calibre machine gun will cripple or kill a helicopter very quickly.

Obviously so, however the context in which these elements are engaging the chopper are the core of the debate.

@ Rudd, sniperdog had managed to get a tutorial on them prior to breakage:

Hunt3r wrote: Revised. Also:
Helicopter Gunning Tutorial (relevant)

Anti Air Vehicle (AAV) Gunning Tutorial

Also, while all these would help improve helicopter gunning immensly, the biggest change would need to come from view distance increase and allowing helicopters to actually fight in their medium.

Sorry guys, but the gunship isn't some mighty behemoth that never dies. A rapid-fire cannon or heavy-calibre machine gun will cripple or kill a helicopter very quickly.

No one's disputing their invulnerability, however modern day helicopters have advanced much since the days of the Hind, the playing fields have been reset in their favour, and most of all, helicopters in real life aren't forced into enemy auto-cannon or machine gun maximum operating range.

sniperdog has a great tutorial voice haven't seen him in a while, hopefully he'll come back and maybe try and port the CA hellfires to PR though I'd worry about the OPness of teh vehicle lock on mode, if it was featured we'd probably need to decrease the number of degrees your crosshair can be from the target before the box and lock start working.

[R-DEV]Masaq wrote:When the CIA managed to get .50 weapons to the Muj in Afghanistan in the 80s, that was when Hinds started to fall out of the air.

When they got 14.5mm weapons, Hinds started falling much more regularly.

When they received the SA-7 and FIM-92, that's when Hinds started to fall out of the air very frequently indeed. The introduction of flares and other countermeasures helped, but losses continued.


Sorry guys, but the gunship isn't some mighty behemoth that never dies. A rapid-fire cannon or heavy-calibre machine gun will cripple or kill a helicopter very quickly.

From the various sources I have seen including a documentary jaymz posted the SA7 doesn´t have that big an effectiveness. Tactis also changed making it even less.

The matter still stands, because neither are they as weak as portrayed in PR. Scream engine limitations as much as possible, but it can be balanced.

Oh I don't deny the situation can be improved - but I do think that comments stating that attack helicopters can soak up .50 cal fire IRL and therefore should be modelled as such in-game should be challenged for their poor reflection of reality

Well I think the reasoning is more that if they are forced within range etc the damage should be adjusted to gameplay balance, I don´t think its the best solution but it is one.

[R-CON]Rudd wrote:sniperdog has a great tutorial voice haven't seen him in a while, hopefully he'll come back and maybe try and port the CA hellfires to PR though I'd worry about the OPness of teh vehicle lock on mode, if it was featured we'd probably need to decrease the number of degrees your crosshair can be from the target before the box and lock start working.

Yeah I hope he does too. Last I heard he's swamped up to his head in engineering schoolwork but will be free to work on CA in 2 weeks when his college lets out. Bare in mind that's pure speculation though...

Hunt3r wrote:Weaponry

• Point mode: Hellfires will lock onto any vehicle, or emplacement. TOW, HMG, AA, it doesn't matter. It must be manned, however. If this is considered too radical, this could be just the previous LT mode.

Sensors

• Helicopters should get a warning that they are about to be locked, and they should be told when they have been locked.

Both not very realistic imo.

The weaponry thing is completely realistic. Hell, even the Russians have achieved it. You can simply point at something in real life, designate it, and the helicopter will fire a missile into it. It can very easily do the same to any vehicle.

AlphaSixOne on the AH-64A Apache wrote:There is an Image Auto Tracker that locks onto contrasting shapes, but most of the time, targets are tracked manually. The right trigger on the CPG's handgrips is the laser trigger. The first detent shoots a quick squirt for ranging, and holding the trigger at its second detent keeps the laser firing for missile tracking or continuously updated ranging.

The area track in CA would be reasonable because real Apaches get gyro-stabilised cameras.

Hunt3r wrote:Few things should be done to PR to actually make attack helicopters useful, because right now they are just too weak and expensive for the potential firepower, which can never really be used.

Countermeasures

• Flares that block heat targets from appearing not quite sure what you mean
• 120 of them yes
• Flares should block the explosion if the seeker head detonates near the aircraft, and the flare is between it. Retarded, although i see where you're coming from a better solution would be to make the flares shoot out farther from the aircraft faster as a near by exploding missile WILL likely take out the chopper instead of being blocked by some mystical force

Weaponry

• Hellfires should have two modes
• Area mode: Once you fire, the missile will go towards where you last clicked. yes
• Point mode: Hellfires will lock onto any vehicle, or emplacement. TOW, HMG, AA, it doesn't matter. It must be manned, however. If this is considered too radical, this could be just the previous LT mode. NOOOOOOooooo

Sensors

• Actual FLIR should be implemented for the gunner. Mosquill? FLIR doesnt work very well in the hot climates during the day
• All helicopters that give the pilot a FLIR camera should get them, ie the Apache.
• Helicopters should get a warning that they are about to be locked, and they should be told when they have been locked. Thermal locks give no warning, only radar locks do

AA should also be very effective and be able to take out choppers unless flares intercede.

my reponse in red

Hunt3r wrote:The weaponry thing is completely realistic. Hell, even the Russians have achieved it. You can simply point at something in real life, designate it, and the helicopter will fire a missile into it. It can very easily do the same to any vehicle.

That is not what Hunt3r suggested.
He said that it locks on to things that are manned. Sure you can lase everything but as it is described heren the dangerous emplacements are lased automaticly.

And that´s where I say: No way! That is like in Bf2 where you can see manned vehicles and aas from an airplane as lased.

Hunt3r wrote:Weaponry

• Point mode: Hellfires will lock onto any vehicle, or emplacement. TOW, HMG, AA, it doesn't matter. It must be manned, however. If this is considered too radical, this could be just the previous LT mode.